Conspiracy Debunker Challenge!!

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The "War on Terror" is a psychological assault on the people.

[FONT=Trebuchet MS,Bookman Old Style,Arial]"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials [/FONT]
 
John Avlonhttps://twitter.com/intent/follow?o..._name=johnavlon&tw_p=followbutton&variant=2.0

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[h=3]THE SURVEILLANCE SCANDALS[/h] 06.12.13
[h=1]The Military-Industrial Complex Is Real, and It’s Bigger Than Ever[/h]President Eisenhower was ridiculed as a conspiracy theorist for his famous remark about the “military-industry complex.” But Edward Snowden’s leaks have reminded us it’s real, it’s bigger and more wasteful than ever, and its bloat can even threaten our national security.
Ike was right.
In January 1961, President Dwight D. Eisenhower famously warned about the growth of the “military-industrial complex” in his farewell address.

Ed Snowden, late of Booz Allen Hamilton, is just one small expression of its rise. The rest is evident throughout the Gilded Age of the metro Washington area, a boom time of corporate cronyism in the wake of 9/11 that has led to fat contracts amid the outsourcing of national security, complete with the proliferation of top security clearances to private contractors like Snowden.
As the iconic Washington Post investigation detailed, there are 1,931 private companies working on counterterrorism, homeland security, and intelligence. Throughout the D.C. area, 33 buildings containing 17 million square feet of office space have been built since 9/11—the equivalent of 22 Capitol buildings. But despite the growth of government national-security workers, some 500,000 private contractors also have top security clearances.
This might be defensible if private contractors actually saved taxpayer dollars, but they don’t. According to a 2008 study by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, contractors made up 29 percent of intelligence agency workforce but cost the equivalent of 49 percent of personnel budgets. Consider the fact that Snowden made $122,000 a year in his brief Hawaii-based gig for Booz Allen Hamilton, offering evident tech savvy but only a GED. The average annual salary for a person with a GED is only $37,200. This isn’t an industry interested in belt-tightening.
The proliferation of military-industrial complex contractors has helped propel the D.C. metro area to include seven of the top 10 wealthiest counties in the United States. Contra Snowden’s formal education, five of the top six counties for college-educated workers are in the D.C. metro area. The overlap between the two is not surprising: Loudoun, Arlington, and Fairfax counties in Virginia are particularly plush places to be in 2013.
If you want to find out what’s really happening in politics and government, follow the money. When it comes to national security, civic concerns compete with financial self-interest—and guess which often wins the tug of war?
The problem, of course, is not just a matter of money. It is the amount of overlap and inevitable turf battles that occur when multiple organizations—both private and public—all strive to prove their relevance to protect their self-interest. To use another example from the Post’s “Top Secret America” series, there are 51 federal organizations and military commands tracking the flow of money in terrorist networks. This just can’t be the most effective way to accomplish the mission.
But the military-industrial complex has a trump card to play with members of Congress and the public: nobody wants to argue with national security, especially when the very real threat of terrorism exists. This ain’t no phantom menace: more than 45 jihadist terror plots had been stopped before the 10th anniversary of 9/11. But the combination of real threat and opaque multibillion-dollar budgets leads inevitably to a lack of transparency and accountability. That’s where the risk of not just information-dragnet overreach but also the risk of leakers like Ed Snowden comes in. With this level of complexity in the system, security is ironically almost impossible to maintain.
There is no debate that Snowden’s unlikely access to the nation’s security secrets is a reflection of the overextended partial privatization of our intelligence operations.

​
Better to streamline a still-robust national-security community, leading to strict lines of accountability while minimizing consultants and their 500,000 top-secret clearances. If too much is top secret, then nothing is, especially in the digital age when documents can be accessed by any low-level staffer. Moreover, the tsunami of metadata collected might ultimately be utilized by our enemies, hacking into our system servers, rather than the inevitably disorganized tangle of private contractors and government workers.
Snowden wasn’t the danger Ike imagined in his Farewell Address, given from the Oval Office in the predawn of the computer age. Some might argue that Snowden represents the “alert and knowledgeable citizenry” that Eisenhower said would be the best check on the interests of military-industrial complex.
But there is no debate that Ed Snowden’s unlikely access to the nation’s security secrets in the first place is a reflection of the overextended partial privatization of our intelligence operations. This is what Ike explicitly warned about more than a half-century ago: “We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties.”
Ruminate on that, while we sort out all the facts.

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56COMMENTS










 
What I can't figure out.. is why in the world would anyone with any intelligence at all argue with this? does it help you sleep at night?

People in general tend to filter out things that conflict with their view of the world, regardless of evidence to the contrary. Rarely does it matter what the subject is. I don't think that how high or low the IQ of a person is matters when it comes to this phenomenon either though that's just an opinion. Our emotions and subconscious defense mechanisms tend to bypass our logical minds, can happen to any MENSA member just as easy as an average person.

Why are some people able to get around this unfortunate aspect of psychology & grow beyond it and others are not? I don't know the answer to that one.
 
People in general tend to filter out things that conflict with their view of the world, regardless of evidence to the contrary. Rarely does it matter what the subject is. I don't think that how high or low the IQ of a person is matters when it comes to this phenomenon either though that's just an opinion. Our emotions and subconscious defense mechanisms tend to bypass our logical minds, can happen to any MENSA member just as easy as an average person.

Why are some people able to get around this unfortunate aspect of psychology & grow beyond it and others are not? I don't know the answer to that one.

Absolutely. It's hard to know why some can and some can't get around the subconscious defense mechanisms because the reasons can be few or many. Here are just two, one from the Bible and one from an overlooked aspect of human psychology:

1. Bible: "[The lawless one will deceive] those who perish, because they did not receive a love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason, God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2Thess. 2:9-12). Here, God says that some people can't see the clearest of facts, because they choose not to: they want to live for themselves (unrighteousness) and not God, therefore they reject (i.e. literally 'eject') truth that bothers them ("Out of sight; out of mind") so that they can live their lives free of the encumbrance of disruptive or disturbing facts.

2. Brainwashing: A lot of people live in a mind state where their views have been dictated to them by the media, religion, tradition, or purposeful mind control programming (sometimes via indoctrination of various types-- like religious groups-- and sometimes via trama-based conditioning which cements beliefs into a person's psyche more permanently). Their beliefs are not actually theirs but have been foisted on them from sources outside of themselves. Especially people who have been purposely 'brainwashed' are literally unable to receive facts or truth when those facts attack the very things they've been 'programmed' to disbelieve-- things like all facts and 'conspiracies' pertaining to the NWO and everything that pertains to it. These people will blindly, if they ever come in contact with 'truth', deny and refute it no matter how much evidence is presented (and they will sometimes appear to be defense attorneys 'against the prosecution'). They have been brainwashed, and their conscious mind is blocked off from receiving truths that expose the types of people who brainwashed them as well as block them from receiving truth that (from the Bible or otherwise) that is able to free them from their bondage/brainwashing/manipulated worldviews.

So, two common reasons why some people cannot receive facts even with evidence is a hatred of truth that gets in the way of their self-centered lifestyle and brainwashing (through various means) which hinders a person's ability to receive or believe certain truths.
 
Absolutely. It's hard to know why some can and some can't get around the subconscious defense mechanisms because the reasons can be few or many. Here are just two, one from the Bible and one from an overlooked aspect of human psychology:

1. Bible: "[The lawless one will deceive] those who perish, because they did not receive a love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason, God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2Thess. 2:9-12). Here, God says that some people can't see the clearest of facts, because they choose not to: they want to live for themselves (unrighteousness) and not God, therefore they reject (i.e. literally 'eject') truth that bothers them ("Out of sight; out of mind") so that they can live their lives free of the encumbrance of disruptive or disturbing facts.

2. Brainwashing: A lot of people live in a mind state where their views have been dictated to them by the media, religion, tradition, or purposeful mind control programming (sometimes via indoctrination of various types-- like religious groups-- and sometimes via trama-based conditioning which cements beliefs into a person's psyche more permanently). Their beliefs are not actually theirs but have been foisted on them from sources outside of themselves. Especially people who have been purposely 'brainwashed' are literally unable to receive facts or truth when those facts attack the very things they've been 'programmed' to disbelieve-- things like all facts and 'conspiracies' pertaining to the NWO and everything that pertains to it. These people will blindly, if they ever come in contact with 'truth', deny and refute it no matter how much evidence is presented (and they will sometimes appear to be defense attorneys 'against the prosecution'). They have been brainwashed, and their conscious mind is blocked off from receiving truths that expose the types of people who brainwashed them as well as block them from receiving truth that (from the Bible or otherwise) that is able to free them from their bondage/brainwashing/manipulated worldviews.

So, two common reasons why some people cannot receive facts even with evidence is a hatred of truth that gets in the way of their self-centered lifestyle and brainwashing (through various means) which hinders a person's ability to receive or believe certain truths.

Basically, I believe honesty play important role why people support lie and ignore the fact and evident.
 
Basically, I believe honesty play important role why people support lie and ignore the fact and evident.

Yes, honesty and sincerity play a bog part in rejecting the truth or facts. Most people today, at least in western society, are dishonest, insincere, and pretentious. The reasons are many, but the fact remains that it is true. If you are dishonest and insincere, you choose what you believe and disbelieve, and truth is never absolute but relative to you. Even if you don't know you think this way, as long as you are dishonest, insincere, and pretentious, truth will be relative to you and not absolute, and morals and values for you will be subject to what you choose and what you reject and not based on what really is good or bad, right or wrong.
 
Yes, honesty and sincerity play a bog part in rejecting the truth or facts. Most people today, at least in western society, are dishonest, insincere, and pretentious. The reasons are many, but the fact remains that it is true. If you are dishonest and insincere, you choose what you believe and disbelieve, and truth is never absolute but relative to you. Even if you don't know you think this way, as long as you are dishonest, insincere, and pretentious, truth will be relative to you and not absolute, and morals and values for you will be subject to what you choose and what you reject and not based on what really is good or bad, right or wrong.

Yup, not only in western society, every where people choose popularity instead of honesty.

If honest cause unpopular, dishonest will be the choice.
 
Let's be candid. Aside from the fact that Al-Qaeda leaders personally claimed responsibility in the aftermath of the attacks, and aside from the staggering evidence of Al-Qaeda's involvement on the whole as far as converging reports concerning plans of action and personal testimonies that further validate the group's involvement, it's not as though structural engineers are convinced that there's no plausible explanation as far as the collapse of the towers. In structural engineering terms, progressive collapse occurs when the main structural element of a building fails and subsequently causes interconnecting elements to collapse, and so on and so forth. The destruction of both towers is soundly attributable to total progressive collapse, and, moreover, the working theory concerning the role the aircraft played in developing the stresses that eventually caused the collapses are well-established.

Since you'll obviously discount NIST as another extension of the supposed cover-up, we'll go with the ASCE's prior report conducted as part of a BPS investigation. As part of a conclusion reached before the NIST's more detailed report published later, the ACSE stated:

As each tower was struck, extensive structural damage, including localized collapse, occurred at the several floor levels directly impacted by the aircraft. Despite this massive localized damage, each structure remained standing. However, as each aircraft impacted a building, jet fuel on board ignited. Part of this fuel immediately burned off in the large fireballs that erupted at the impact floors. Remaining fuel flowed across the floors and down elevator utility shafts, igniting intense fires throughout upper portions of the buildings. As these fires spread, they further weakened the steel-framed structures, eventually leading to total collapse.

In essence, this is the prevailing view. Although the fires were incapable of melting the steel support frames that eventually led to the collapse of the structures, they did weaken them, inducing further strain on the structures past the initial impact damage caused by the aircraft themselves.

With that said, the fires were the principle cause of the collapses. Per the TMS, an independent organization consisting of professional scientists and engineers devoted in part to the research and application of materials:

Of equal or even greater significance during this initial impact was the explosion when 90,000 L gallons of jet fuel, comprising nearly 1/3 of the aircraft’s weight, ignited. The ensuing fire was clearly the principal cause of the collapse.

In speaking of the progressive domino effect that initiated the total progressive collapse of the structures...

The perimeter tube design of the WTC was highly redundant. It survived the loss of several exterior columns due to aircraft impact, but the ensuing fire led to other steel failures. Many structural engineers believe that the weak points—the limiting factors on design allowables—were the angle clips that held the floor joists between the columns on the perimeter wall and the core structure (see Figure 5). With a 700 Pa floor design allowable, each floor should have been able to support approximately 1,300 t beyond its own weight. The total weight of each tower was about 500,000 t.
As the joists on one or two of the most heavily burned floors gave way and the outer box columns began to bow outward, the floors above them also fell. The floor below (with its 1,300 t design capacity) could not support the roughly 45,000 t of ten floors (or more) above crashing down on these angle clips. This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse within ten seconds, hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km per hour. If it had been free fall, with no restraint, the collapse would have only taken eight seconds and would have impacted at 300 km/h.1 It has been suggested that it was fortunate that the WTC did not tip over onto other buildings surrounding the area. There are several points that should be made. First, the building is not solid; it is 95 percent air and, hence, can implode onto itself. Second, there is no lateral load, even the impact of a speeding aircraft, which is sufficient to move the center of gravity one hundred feet to the side such that it is not within the base footprint of the structure. Third, given the near free-fall collapse, there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity. To summarize all of these points, a 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down.

Thus, both the cause and the nature of the failures is readily explainable, and conspiracies that allege a different story have no sufficient case to make that credibly diverges from official investigations and analyses from experts. If you'd rather believe armchair engineers who've been watching too much Zeitgeist, you're free to do so, but it doesn't detract from the frankly laughable lack of professional credibility of the conspiratorially inclined.
 
Why free fall?

Why the expert discover a iron dust ?

Show me the literature jet fuel turn steel structure to Iron dust.

Show me in the literature steel structure collapse from fire.


[video=youtube_share;KKT5XxJ1sbQ]http://youtu.be/KKT5XxJ1sbQ[/video]
 
In essence, this is the prevailing view. Although the fires were incapable of melting the steel support frames that eventually led to the collapse of the structures, they did weaken them, inducing further strain on the structures past the initial impact damage caused by the aircraft themselves.


Of equal or even greater significance during this initial impact was the explosion when 90,000 L gallons of jet fuel, comprising nearly 1/3 of the aircraft’s weight, ignited. The ensuing fire was clearly the principal cause of the collapse.

Except we are talking bout tower 7. (Never touched by an aircraft)
 
Let's be candid. Aside from the fact that Al-Qaeda leaders personally claimed responsibility in the aftermath of the attacks, and aside from the staggering evidence of Al-Qaeda's involvement on the whole as far as converging reports concerning plans of action and personal testimonies that further validate the group's involvement, it's not as though structural engineers are convinced that there's no plausible explanation as far as the collapse of the towers. In structural engineering terms, progressive collapse occurs when the main structural element of a building fails and subsequently causes interconnecting elements to collapse, and so on and so forth. The destruction of both towers is soundly attributable to total progressive collapse, and, moreover, the working theory concerning the role the aircraft played in developing the stresses that eventually caused the collapses are well-established.

Since you'll obviously discount NIST as another extension of the supposed cover-up, we'll go with the ASCE's prior report conducted as part of a BPS investigation. As part of a conclusion reached before the NIST's more detailed report published later, the ACSE stated:

As each tower was struck, extensive structural damage, including localized collapse, occurred at the several floor levels directly impacted by the aircraft. Despite this massive localized damage, each structure remained standing. However, as each aircraft impacted a building, jet fuel on board ignited. Part of this fuel immediately burned off in the large fireballs that erupted at the impact floors. Remaining fuel flowed across the floors and down elevator utility shafts, igniting intense fires throughout upper portions of the buildings. As these fires spread, they further weakened the steel-framed structures, eventually leading to total collapse.

In essence, this is the prevailing view. Although the fires were incapable of melting the steel support frames that eventually led to the collapse of the structures, they did weaken them, inducing further strain on the structures past the initial impact damage caused by the aircraft themselves.

With that said, the fires were the principle cause of the collapses. Per the TMS, an independent organization consisting of professional scientists and engineers devoted in part to the research and application of materials:

Of equal or even greater significance during this initial impact was the explosion when 90,000 L gallons of jet fuel, comprising nearly 1/3 of the aircraft’s weight, ignited. The ensuing fire was clearly the principal cause of the collapse.

In speaking of the progressive domino effect that initiated the total progressive collapse of the structures...

The perimeter tube design of the WTC was highly redundant. It survived the loss of several exterior columns due to aircraft impact, but the ensuing fire led to other steel failures. Many structural engineers believe that the weak points—the limiting factors on design allowables—were the angle clips that held the floor joists between the columns on the perimeter wall and the core structure (see Figure 5). With a 700 Pa floor design allowable, each floor should have been able to support approximately 1,300 t beyond its own weight. The total weight of each tower was about 500,000 t.
As the joists on one or two of the most heavily burned floors gave way and the outer box columns began to bow outward, the floors above them also fell. The floor below (with its 1,300 t design capacity) could not support the roughly 45,000 t of ten floors (or more) above crashing down on these angle clips. This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse within ten seconds, hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km per hour. If it had been free fall, with no restraint, the collapse would have only taken eight seconds and would have impacted at 300 km/h.1 It has been suggested that it was fortunate that the WTC did not tip over onto other buildings surrounding the area. There are several points that should be made. First, the building is not solid; it is 95 percent air and, hence, can implode onto itself. Second, there is no lateral load, even the impact of a speeding aircraft, which is sufficient to move the center of gravity one hundred feet to the side such that it is not within the base footprint of the structure. Third, given the near free-fall collapse, there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity. To summarize all of these points, a 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down.

Thus, both the cause and the nature of the failures is readily explainable, and conspiracies that allege a different story have no sufficient case to make that credibly diverges from official investigations and analyses from experts. If you'd rather believe armchair engineers who've been watching too much Zeitgeist, you're free to do so, but it doesn't detract from the frankly laughable lack of professional credibility of the conspiratorially inclined.

Is 90.000 L gallon = 90.000 Litter = 30.000 gallon?
 
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Originally Posted by Lizathrose

In essence, this is the prevailing view. Although the fires were incapable of melting the steel support frames that eventually led to the collapse of the structures, they did weaken them, inducing further strain on the structures past the initial impact damage caused by the aircraft themselves.


Of equal or even greater significance during this initial impact was the explosion when 90,000 L gallons of jet fuel, comprising nearly 1/3 of the aircraft’s weight, ignited. The ensuing fire was clearly the principal cause of the collapse.

There's just one little problem wit' yer "analysis": Jet fuel running down the building or not, the fire only burned at the crash site, not multiple floors below.

Funny how people are trained to believe what they hear over what they SEE.:rolleyes:
 
There are those who believe that conspiracy theories are ridiculous. I challenge you to explain what brought this building down.

This is the only steel structured building in history to be brought down by fire alone. The only other two in history were hit by aircraft. ALL 3 of them fell on the same day. So again here is the question.

"What brought down this building?"

First of all, you're wrong. Both the McCormick Center in Chicago and the Sight and Sound Theater in Pennsylvania are examples of steel structures collapsing due to fires alone, and the McCormick in particular was structurally similar in that it used long steel trusses to create a large open space without columns. Furthermore, it's well-established that fire can substantially weaken structural steel. Implying that fire alone shouldn't be sufficient to bring a building down, especially near its bottom floors, is patently false.

"The fires burned out of control during the afternoon, causing floor beams near column 79 to expand and push a key girder off its seat, triggering the floors to fail around column 79 on Floors 8 to 14. With a loss of lateral support across nine floors, column 79 buckled – pulling the east penthouse and nearby columns down with it. With the buckling of these critical columns, the collapse then progressed east-to-west across the core, ultimately overloading the perimeter support, which buckled between Floors 7 and 17, causing the remaining portion of the building above to fall downward as a single unit. The fires, fueled by office contents, along with the lack of water, were the key reasons for the collapse."

This is a Wikipedia summary of a portion of the NIST's summary concerning building 7's collapse, which again cites fire as the principle cause of collapse. In all the history of high-rise fires, not one has ever been left for 6-7 hours with its bottom floors on fire with structural damage sustained from another building collapse. In fact, to demonstrate the utter futility in (erroneously) asserting that "no other steel structured building in history has been brought down by fire alone", let's consider some criteria.

1) Find a steel frame building at least 40 stories high.

2) Which takes up a whole city block.

3) And is a "tube in a tube" design.

4) Which came off its core columns at the bottom floors (Earthquake, fire, whatever - WTC 7).

5) Which was struck by another building and had structural damage as a result.

6) And was weakened by fire for over 6 hours.

7) And had trusses that were bolted on with two 5/8" bolts.

Anything less than at least loosely meeting these seven tests is dishonest because it's not comparing apples with apples. Showing a much lighter 4, 5 or even 15 story building, which doesn't even take up a city block and has an old style steel web design, leaves out the massive weight the 47 story Building 7 had bearing down on its south face columns.

It's ridiculous to expect all steel-framed buildings to perform the same during an intense, prolonged fire, or a structural failure attributable to a fire, or a subsequent collapse. This is why it's the first time in history this building collapsed as it did. It's the first time in history a steel-framed structure constructed like this collapsed under the criteria above.
 
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First of all, you're wrong. Both the McCormick Center in Chicago and the Sight and Sound Theater in Pennsylvania are examples of steel structures collapsing due to fires alone

both were collapsing roofs of theaters.. Not remotely close to the same. Theaters are completely hollow rooms. We are talking about a skyscraper. They are not even remotely in the same category.
 
Lizathrose, if you have read the entire thread and all that ran through your mind was "find something to cling too, find something to cling too" the truth will probably never fit into your brain.
 
There's just one little problem wit' yer "analysis": Jet fuel running down the building or not, the fire only burned at the crash site, not multiple floors below.

Funny how people are trained to believe what they hear over what they SEE.:rolleyes:

as soon as the steel supports at the crash site were weakened enough...the entire tower above that point would no longer be held up and it would simply fall...

what happens when you drop a third of a giant skyscraper on something? it crushes everything on the way down...

this is nothing mysterious...except to people who are completely ignorant of basic laws of nature...

and about believing what you see...everyone saw a plane hit a tower...a huge fire in the tower...and the collapse of the tower...the cause and effect relationship should be obvious... but instead of going by what they saw...some people insist on making up a conspiracy and a 'controlled demolition' that -nobody- saw...

i wonder what kind of training -that- takes...
 
as soon as the steel supports at the crash site were weakened enough...the entire tower above that point would no longer be held up and it would simply fall...

what happens when you drop a third of a giant skyscraper on something? it crushes everything on the way down...

You believe that the path of least resistance was the skyscraper beneath it? What about the other buildings actually hit by the falling trade center that didn't collapse? this is ridiculous.
 
The dust "was unlike any dust and smoke mixture I had ever seen before," Lioy said. The fluffy, pink and gray powder "was basically a complex mixture of everything that makes up our workplaces and lives." Six million sq ft of masonry, 5 million sq ft of painted surfaces, 7 million sq ft of flooring, 600,000 sq ft of window glass, 200 elevators, and everything inside came down as dust, said Greg Meeker of USGS. The only thing that didn't get pulverized was the WTC towers' 200,000 tons of structural steel. That was just bent, Meeker said.