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Why not just make it simple and do what Jesus said to do?
Matt 16:16 Amp version
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He who believes [who adheres to and trusts in and relies on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth] and is baptized will be saved [[SUP][f][/SUP]from the penalty of eternal death]; but he who does not believe [who does not adhere to and trust in and rely on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth] will be condemned.
Matt 16:16 Amp version
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He who believes [who adheres to and trusts in and relies on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth] and is baptized will be saved [[SUP][f][/SUP]from the penalty of eternal death]; but he who does not believe [who does not adhere to and trust in and rely on the Gospel and Him Whom it sets forth] will be condemned.
P
[h=1]1 Corinthians 7:14-15King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]14 [/SUP]For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
holy children that havent even been baptised, has god made a mistake, or is someone here mistaken
holy children that havent even been baptised, has god made a mistake, or is someone here mistaken
there are serious questions as to whether Mark 16:9-20 are part of Mark's original letter.
but nevertheless, taking it as inspired,
does it conflict with the rest of what's recorded that Jesus said? "whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life." does it conflict with what was spoken through Joel - "all that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" - which Peter & Paul both directly quote?
what is water baptism? isn't it a symbolic act that culturally represents 'calling on the name of the Lord' ?
if we are baptized into His death and made alive in His resurrection, doesn't this truly take place at His cross, and at His empty tomb? is it water that purges sin, or the blood of the Lamb? if it is His blood, when was that blood shed?
we must be baptized. we must be baptized by the hand of the one that saves. this is not water, dear family, this is not an evangelist. this is very blood, and this is the very hand of our Shepherd who baptizes us. fulfill all righteousness. don't cause each other to stumble. be baptized. but don't look at a pond and think it can remove your sin.
but nevertheless, taking it as inspired,
does it conflict with the rest of what's recorded that Jesus said? "whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life." does it conflict with what was spoken through Joel - "all that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" - which Peter & Paul both directly quote?
what is water baptism? isn't it a symbolic act that culturally represents 'calling on the name of the Lord' ?
if we are baptized into His death and made alive in His resurrection, doesn't this truly take place at His cross, and at His empty tomb? is it water that purges sin, or the blood of the Lamb? if it is His blood, when was that blood shed?
we must be baptized. we must be baptized by the hand of the one that saves. this is not water, dear family, this is not an evangelist. this is very blood, and this is the very hand of our Shepherd who baptizes us. fulfill all righteousness. don't cause each other to stumble. be baptized. but don't look at a pond and think it can remove your sin.
Yes, I have heard all the arguments and even preformed my own investigation of the textual evidence for both the longer and the shorter reading and the evidence is overwhelmingly in support of the longer reading. Why is it that every time the subject of baptism is mentioned in scripture, people go out of their way to either find some grammatical gymnastics around the topic or look for some way to call the text into question to discredit the text? I am perplexed about this to say the least.
i'll accept Mark 16:9-20, even if it is an addition and not part of the original text.
i also accept the rest of the scripture that doesn't call water baptism the means of my salvation.
isn't it interesting though that the only place Jesus connects baptism to salvation is a questionable passage? but i probably shouldn't have even mentioned that in my previous post, because it won't lead to understanding what baptism is; it'll only lead off-track into textual arguments. sorry. let's not waste time there.
there is no argument though, that in other places Jesus spoke of eternal life for those that believe on His name, and did not connect it to water baptism, right? and that even here in Mark, "water" is not mentioned? He is the one who baptizes with fire & the Holy Ghost, yes? and there is only one baptism, and one faith?
i could say that what perplexes me is that Jesus also said to become His disciple one must forsake all one's possessions -- but that, we spiritualize, and baptism, we carnalize.
well, honestly it doesn't perplex me. given human nature, it's not surprising that the thing that appeals to the flesh - a physical ceremony - we magnify, and the thing that is anathema to the flesh - giving up our possessions - we trivialize. that's another tangent altogether.
i think we can all agree that the water in a baptismal font is not magical, that only God forgives sin, and that ritual does not produce righteousness, even if that ritual is performed in obedience to command. i don't think the question is "should we be baptized?" but "what does it mean to be baptized" -- because it must be that Christ receives the glory, not men, or any 'baptism' is of no effect, just like physical circumcision, or outward lawfulness is insufficient, though neither is wrong.
Christ said also that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood -- if we are willing to see that spiritually, not carnally, shouldn't we also be able to see baptism spiritually, and not carnally?
it just seems to me that when we elevate water baptism to this supreme station of absolute requirement for salvation, we're ascribing glory to a work of law, not to Jesus Christ -- and it's stuck in the core of my being that unless Jesus Christ is the one who is glorified, my understanding is false.
i also accept the rest of the scripture that doesn't call water baptism the means of my salvation.
isn't it interesting though that the only place Jesus connects baptism to salvation is a questionable passage? but i probably shouldn't have even mentioned that in my previous post, because it won't lead to understanding what baptism is; it'll only lead off-track into textual arguments. sorry. let's not waste time there.
there is no argument though, that in other places Jesus spoke of eternal life for those that believe on His name, and did not connect it to water baptism, right? and that even here in Mark, "water" is not mentioned? He is the one who baptizes with fire & the Holy Ghost, yes? and there is only one baptism, and one faith?
i could say that what perplexes me is that Jesus also said to become His disciple one must forsake all one's possessions -- but that, we spiritualize, and baptism, we carnalize.
well, honestly it doesn't perplex me. given human nature, it's not surprising that the thing that appeals to the flesh - a physical ceremony - we magnify, and the thing that is anathema to the flesh - giving up our possessions - we trivialize. that's another tangent altogether.
i think we can all agree that the water in a baptismal font is not magical, that only God forgives sin, and that ritual does not produce righteousness, even if that ritual is performed in obedience to command. i don't think the question is "should we be baptized?" but "what does it mean to be baptized" -- because it must be that Christ receives the glory, not men, or any 'baptism' is of no effect, just like physical circumcision, or outward lawfulness is insufficient, though neither is wrong.
Christ said also that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood -- if we are willing to see that spiritually, not carnally, shouldn't we also be able to see baptism spiritually, and not carnally?
it just seems to me that when we elevate water baptism to this supreme station of absolute requirement for salvation, we're ascribing glory to a work of law, not to Jesus Christ -- and it's stuck in the core of my being that unless Jesus Christ is the one who is glorified, my understanding is false.
Amen! That salvation is through believing in Him/faith in Christ and is not by works (including water baptism) is not hard to understand, it's just hard for many people to ACCEPT. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith. These people would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
The Jews said what shall we do to be saved, and Peter said Acts 2:38, which baptism is part of salvation.
And when they say baptism in Jesus' name was only for the Jews to turn them to Jesus, it states that the promise is to all those afar off, and Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans, were all baptized in the name of Jesus in the book of Acts.
If repentance alone washes away sins, then Peter would of not mentioned baptism for God is not vain having us do things that are not required, but would of only mentioned repentance, and receiving the Spirit.
Why mention baptism in the Bible if it has nothing to do with salvation, for the only things that God requires of us are things that are for our spiritual salvation, not do it but has no bearing on us spiritually.
God said love is the fulfilling of the law, getting down to the heart of the matter, not you have to lift weights, and rake your yard, and rub 2 stones together, and click your heels 3 times and say there's no place like heaven, so if baptism is not required to be saved Peter would of not mentioned it, and Jesus would of not said we have to be born of water and Spirit.
Act 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Be baptized and wash away your sins.
Act 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Act 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Philip preached the truth to him which included baptism, and then the eunuch was baptized and then saw him no more, which the eunuch was not baptized to belong to a Church for he was alone and not lined up with anyone, not even Philip which he saw no more, but he had to be baptized when Philip preached Jesus and how to be saved.
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
It plainly states baptism does save us, which it is talking about water for it says it is not for the washing away of the filth, dirt of the flesh, but a good conscience toward God.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
And how would baptism save us which can only be one logical conclusion, it is for remission of sins, washing away sins, like Christ laid down the sins that were placed on Him, and rose to in the Spirit, we have to be baptized in water,and lay down our sins, and will rise to new newness of life.
We have to identify with the man Christ Jesus, for that is how He had to lay down those sins by being buried, and that is how we are to lay down our sins by being baptized in water.
If repentance is for remission of sins, then Peter would of not mentioned baptism, and would of not mentioned it as part of being saved when the Jews said what must we do to be saved.
It would not be mentioned in the Bible about water baptism if there was no meaning concerning it for our spiritual salvation, for it would have no bearing on us.
It is about spiritual salvation, and that is why Jesus took the physical ordinances of Israel away because they have no bearing on spiritual salvation, so if baptism has no bearing on spiritual salvation it would not be mentioned to do it.
And concerning the thief on the cross that they say was not water baptized, Jesus' had not died yet when talking to the thief, and the thief had no way to be baptized anyway, for what was he to do, say, hey you, no not you, you, could you please let me off this cross so I can go be water baptized, which Jesus did not even explain about water baptism to him, and said today you will be with me in paradise.
I believe water baptism can be bypassed under certain conditions, such as a person confesses Christ, and repents, but dies before water baptism, or does not have knowledge to it yet, which will be from faulty teaching, and is a new person confessing Christ so has not come across the information,and dies.
If Jesus plainly states born of water and Spirit, and Jesus said he that is baptized shall be saved, and Luke said that repentance, and remission of sins, should be done in Jesus' name, which he separated repentance and remission of sin, talking about repentance and water baptism, and Peter preached water baptism to be saved, and Paul said if we are planted in the likeness of Christ's death, we shall rise to newness of life by the Spirit, and Peter says water baptism does save us, then we have to be water baptized.
If they believe they do not have to be water baptized to be saved, but they did get water baptized, would it still count as washing away their sins if they do not believe it is necessary for salvation, for this is worse than doubt, but not believing at all.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
The Jews said what shall we do to be saved, and Peter said Acts 2:38, which baptism is part of salvation.
And when they say baptism in Jesus' name was only for the Jews to turn them to Jesus, it states that the promise is to all those afar off, and Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans, were all baptized in the name of Jesus in the book of Acts.
If repentance alone washes away sins, then Peter would of not mentioned baptism for God is not vain having us do things that are not required, but would of only mentioned repentance, and receiving the Spirit.
Why mention baptism in the Bible if it has nothing to do with salvation, for the only things that God requires of us are things that are for our spiritual salvation, not do it but has no bearing on us spiritually.
God said love is the fulfilling of the law, getting down to the heart of the matter, not you have to lift weights, and rake your yard, and rub 2 stones together, and click your heels 3 times and say there's no place like heaven, so if baptism is not required to be saved Peter would of not mentioned it, and Jesus would of not said we have to be born of water and Spirit.
Act 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Be baptized and wash away your sins.
Act 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Act 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Philip preached the truth to him which included baptism, and then the eunuch was baptized and then saw him no more, which the eunuch was not baptized to belong to a Church for he was alone and not lined up with anyone, not even Philip which he saw no more, but he had to be baptized when Philip preached Jesus and how to be saved.
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
It plainly states baptism does save us, which it is talking about water for it says it is not for the washing away of the filth, dirt of the flesh, but a good conscience toward God.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
And how would baptism save us which can only be one logical conclusion, it is for remission of sins, washing away sins, like Christ laid down the sins that were placed on Him, and rose to in the Spirit, we have to be baptized in water,and lay down our sins, and will rise to new newness of life.
We have to identify with the man Christ Jesus, for that is how He had to lay down those sins by being buried, and that is how we are to lay down our sins by being baptized in water.
If repentance is for remission of sins, then Peter would of not mentioned baptism, and would of not mentioned it as part of being saved when the Jews said what must we do to be saved.
It would not be mentioned in the Bible about water baptism if there was no meaning concerning it for our spiritual salvation, for it would have no bearing on us.
It is about spiritual salvation, and that is why Jesus took the physical ordinances of Israel away because they have no bearing on spiritual salvation, so if baptism has no bearing on spiritual salvation it would not be mentioned to do it.
And concerning the thief on the cross that they say was not water baptized, Jesus' had not died yet when talking to the thief, and the thief had no way to be baptized anyway, for what was he to do, say, hey you, no not you, you, could you please let me off this cross so I can go be water baptized, which Jesus did not even explain about water baptism to him, and said today you will be with me in paradise.
I believe water baptism can be bypassed under certain conditions, such as a person confesses Christ, and repents, but dies before water baptism, or does not have knowledge to it yet, which will be from faulty teaching, and is a new person confessing Christ so has not come across the information,and dies.
If Jesus plainly states born of water and Spirit, and Jesus said he that is baptized shall be saved, and Luke said that repentance, and remission of sins, should be done in Jesus' name, which he separated repentance and remission of sin, talking about repentance and water baptism, and Peter preached water baptism to be saved, and Paul said if we are planted in the likeness of Christ's death, we shall rise to newness of life by the Spirit, and Peter says water baptism does save us, then we have to be water baptized.
If they believe they do not have to be water baptized to be saved, but they did get water baptized, would it still count as washing away their sins if they do not believe it is necessary for salvation, for this is worse than doubt, but not believing at all.
the problem is Acts 2:38 is just one verse on the topic. So to create a doctrine on one verse would be hard without other supporting scriptures
This is known as Elitcing of the word of God.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
John 3:16
Acts 2:21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Acts 16:31
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
and Rom 10:9-10
The believe and respond to what they have believed in through faith in Jesus Christ. And do so in baptism . Baptism does not save you are baptized because you are saved.
This is known as Elitcing of the word of God.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
John 3:16
Acts 2:21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Acts 16:31
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
and Rom 10:9-10
The believe and respond to what they have believed in through faith in Jesus Christ. And do so in baptism . Baptism does not save you are baptized because you are saved.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
End of story all through the book of acts when they believed they were baptized.
If baptizism was not a part of salvation this scripture among others would not be in the book. Forgiveness comes at repentance remission comes through baptism.
End of story all through the book of acts when they believed they were baptized.
If baptizism was not a part of salvation this scripture among others would not be in the book. Forgiveness comes at repentance remission comes through baptism.
Not a Greek expert as myself but major English Bible (KJV,NKJV, NLT,NIV,ESV, CSB, NASB, NET, RSV, DBY, WEB, HNV) translated the Greek eis as “for” and it seems rather that is you sound to be unfortunate. However, many of the English Bible in Acts 2:38 does not allow the so called “baptismal regeneration”. Been studying lately, the use of Inverse parallelism or the chiasmus so that “Repent” and not the word “baptized” is to be connected “for the remission of sins”. Similarly, the Greek eis is also translated in Acts 3:19 but Peter does not even mention baptism so "that our sins may be blotted out" thus Peter and the use of Chiasmus do not contradict each other.
Acts 3:18 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 3:18 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."
*If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
All through the book of Acts they received salvation when they believed/placed faith in Christ for salvation (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18 etc..) then were AFTERWARDS water baptized. End of story.
*If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
All through the book of Acts they received salvation when they believed/placed faith in Christ for salvation (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18 etc..) then were AFTERWARDS water baptized. End of story.
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"Just" believe as if believing in Christ is insignificant? (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6 etc..). Belief/faith is only as good as the OBJECT that we place it in and to say that believing in Christ for salvation is insufficient to save is to say that the OBJECT of our belief/faith (Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption) is insufficient to save. To believe in Christ for salvation is to trust in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.