Mormons / Latter Day Saints
- Thread starter RickyZ
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Who was Michael and his angels who fought with satan and his angels? Was Michael and the good angels destroyed with the bad angels. No the bad angels were thrust out and the good angels remained, they did not turn into demons. satans angels that were thrown out, were thrown to the earth and they turned into demons and are the ones that confronted Jesus and wanted to go into the pigs.
So "that world was NOT destroyed", and the good angels stayed in heaven.
Who were the sons of God that shouted for joy? and why did they shout for joy?
So "that world was NOT destroyed", and the good angels stayed in heaven.
Who were the sons of God that shouted for joy? and why did they shout for joy?
This is a good example of a bad anti-anything slur.
My whole statement was: You must realize that you are looking at this relationship only since the earth was populated. You are not looking at it from the beginning. Therefore it is mind-boggingly impossible to reach the Mormon conclusion.
I have a hunch you know what I meant, but you decided to be cute and try dropping information to make a point. It did not work. Sorry. I did like the creativity though.
My whole statement was: You must realize that you are looking at this relationship only since the earth was populated. You are not looking at it from the beginning. Therefore it is mind-boggingly impossible to reach the Mormon conclusion.
I have a hunch you know what I meant, but you decided to be cute and try dropping information to make a point. It did not work. Sorry. I did like the creativity though.
it's not true that i'm looking at the relationship between Christ & Satan *only* since the earth was populated.
it is true that i'm looking at it *only* since Satan was created. (Ezekiel 28)
Christ on the other hand, has no origin - He is the beginning and the end.
they are not at all the same category of being - see post #657
and from that - with a view extending before the creation of the heavens and the earth, also, the Mormon conclusion is completely unreasonable and impossible to come to. the only way one can come to this belief is through latter-day 'prophets' who would abrogate the Judaic & Christian texts, teaching things that are in direct conflict with what's written in the Torah, the Prophets, the Psalms and the gospels & New Testament epistles.
No offense taken, that's why I like you. You say what you mean and you don't mince words. Sometimes I have felt your passion lead you to say some things you wish you hadn't said, but I have thick skin and can withstand the heat. So be yourself and show me what you know. I will listen.
I'm going to show you something that you may or may not have read before. And sometimes we read it and we just fly by it and don't give it any thought. So read this for what it is worth and I'm sure you will know what to do if you don't readily believe it.
Genesis 1:1 starts the whole OT and it says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The Hebrew word for "God" is "Elohim". Elohim is the first creator God mentioned in the Holy Scriptures. The name of Elohim is used all the way through chapter 1 and the first 3 vs of chapter 2.
Then in Genesis 2:4 it says, "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens. The Hebrew word for "Lord God" is Yahweh, the second creator God that is mentioned in the Holy Scriptures.
Here's how I make sense of it. Elohim created all things that were created in chapter 1 in spirit form, then he rested. We know this when we read the weird verse Genesis 2:5. It says in essence that before the plants were in the earth...and there was no man to till the ground... verbiage that whatever was created in chapter 1 was not on the earth yet, even though it had been created. We don't know the time span between Genesis 2:3 and 2:4, when Yahweh starts the second creation story and begins to create everything naturally upon the face of the earth. Yahweh is Jesus. So Elohim was the first creator in chapter 1 and formed all of us, even Jesus and satan and all the sons of God.
Read Psalms 45:6-7 Elohim is talking to Yahweh.
6 Thy throne, O God (Yahweh), is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God (Yahweh), thy God (Elohim),hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Who is Jesus's fellows? They are all the spirit beings formed in chapter 1 by Elohim. Jesus is the only one that lovest righteousness and hatest wickedness and was sinless from the beginning, and God (Elohim) pronounced Yahweh God and gave him command of the natural creation. So that by him (Yahweh/Jesus)and for him were all things created that were created.
Now I believe that Elohim formed satan as a spirit, but he finally rejected Elohim and Yahweh and satan was thrown out of heaven and so he and his angels will not have a natural body formed by Yahweh. So Yahweh/Jesus I don't think formed satan, Elohim did.
I'm going to show you something that you may or may not have read before. And sometimes we read it and we just fly by it and don't give it any thought. So read this for what it is worth and I'm sure you will know what to do if you don't readily believe it.
Genesis 1:1 starts the whole OT and it says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The Hebrew word for "God" is "Elohim". Elohim is the first creator God mentioned in the Holy Scriptures. The name of Elohim is used all the way through chapter 1 and the first 3 vs of chapter 2.
Then in Genesis 2:4 it says, "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens. The Hebrew word for "Lord God" is Yahweh, the second creator God that is mentioned in the Holy Scriptures.
Here's how I make sense of it. Elohim created all things that were created in chapter 1 in spirit form, then he rested. We know this when we read the weird verse Genesis 2:5. It says in essence that before the plants were in the earth...and there was no man to till the ground... verbiage that whatever was created in chapter 1 was not on the earth yet, even though it had been created. We don't know the time span between Genesis 2:3 and 2:4, when Yahweh starts the second creation story and begins to create everything naturally upon the face of the earth. Yahweh is Jesus. So Elohim was the first creator in chapter 1 and formed all of us, even Jesus and satan and all the sons of God.
Read Psalms 45:6-7 Elohim is talking to Yahweh.
6 Thy throne, O God (Yahweh), is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God (Yahweh), thy God (Elohim),hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Who is Jesus's fellows? They are all the spirit beings formed in chapter 1 by Elohim. Jesus is the only one that lovest righteousness and hatest wickedness and was sinless from the beginning, and God (Elohim) pronounced Yahweh God and gave him command of the natural creation. So that by him (Yahweh/Jesus)and for him were all things created that were created.
Now I believe that Elohim formed satan as a spirit, but he finally rejected Elohim and Yahweh and satan was thrown out of heaven and so he and his angels will not have a natural body formed by Yahweh. So Yahweh/Jesus I don't think formed satan, Elohim did.
Last edited:
The Hebrew language is fascinating in that it is 4 denominational. Each letter in every word is a representation of an individual meaning . Names are character definitions understood by each letter of the word it is in. The language must be read in context for each picture letter to be properly understood. As in this case, the attributes of stones are related to who they represent. They are not the character, but define the character's capability whether adjective, verb, or noun.
Step by step. I begin with this scripture.
Exodus 28:15-21
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet , and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled ; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.
21 And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve , according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.
I will be quoting other scriptures and explaining as we go. You call it when we are ready for the next step.
Step by step. I begin with this scripture.
Exodus 28:15-21
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet , and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled ; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.
21 And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve , according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.
I will be quoting other scriptures and explaining as we go. You call it when we are ready for the next step.
You forgot to include Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created , that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
בְּרֵאשִׁית = *“In the beginning” reads as follows
Within the beginning, united power created a signal.
This signal is represented as a “T” (Hebrew letter "Tav") defined with “cross sticks.”
The “cross sticks” was the plan of salvation. It is also classified as a “monument.”
God is Elohim, and Elohim is of plural representation.
see this post
Lord=Jehovah 3068 Yhovah yeh-ho-vaw' from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord.
The self existing Jehovah is also inclusive denoting the plurality of Elohim. “Lord God” in Genesis 2:4 defines both Father and the Son. “Lord God”= “Jehovah Elohim” of plural representation.
Colossians 1:16-19
16 For by him were all things created , that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence .
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Psalm 45:6-7 is a confirmation of verse 19 in Colossians chapter 1 “*In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.”
Your explanation does not match with scripture, for Genesis 1 says “Let us make man in our image.”
Continuing in Genesis 2:7 it says “And the LORD GOD formed man.” So the “Lord GOD” being “Jehovah Elohim” of plural representation confirms Genesis 1:26. Chapters 1 and 2 are not 2 different time frames in creation. The second chapter details the chronology of the first chapter.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
בְּרֵאשִׁית = *“In the beginning” reads as follows
Within the beginning, united power created a signal.
This signal is represented as a “T” (Hebrew letter "Tav") defined with “cross sticks.”
The “cross sticks” was the plan of salvation. It is also classified as a “monument.”
God is Elohim, and Elohim is of plural representation.
see this post
Lord=Jehovah 3068 Yhovah yeh-ho-vaw' from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord.
The self existing Jehovah is also inclusive denoting the plurality of Elohim. “Lord God” in Genesis 2:4 defines both Father and the Son. “Lord God”= “Jehovah Elohim” of plural representation.
Colossians 1:16-19
16 For by him were all things created , that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence .
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Psalm 45:6-7 is a confirmation of verse 19 in Colossians chapter 1 “*In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.”
Your explanation does not match with scripture, for Genesis 1 says “Let us make man in our image.”
Continuing in Genesis 2:7 it says “And the LORD GOD formed man.” So the “Lord GOD” being “Jehovah Elohim” of plural representation confirms Genesis 1:26. Chapters 1 and 2 are not 2 different time frames in creation. The second chapter details the chronology of the first chapter.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
I certainly agree that's a possible interpretation... two things that lead me to see it differently are that verse 45 and verse 47 are talking about Adam and Jesus... so it makes sense, to me, that verse 46 is to... also, God is a spirit, John 4, so if natural is always first, should we think that God was natural first?... yes, definitely, Jesus is creator of all...
The scriptrue is clearly defining the order in which all things were created and how salvation works in comparison. The order cannot be changed without messing up the entire plan of salvation.
You wrote, "should we think that God was natural first?" No, we shouldn't because this scripture in 1 Corinthians 15 is describing a "new birth" in Christ, an allegory, using creation as an example. You might have forgotten verse 44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." However one wants to think, it is still proven that the earthly natural (flesh) has been created first, and through Christ the spiritual follows in every case when the children of God are born again. As we know in Genesis the natural is created by the heavenly Spirit of God, and on earth the spiritual is given after the natural is created. Therefore heavenly and earthy are different in explanations given in scripture.
1 Corinthians 15 Verses 48 and 49 which also should be taken in context "As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have (past tense) borne the image of the earthy, we shall (future tense) also bear the image of the heavenly."
With all due respect, your explanation sounds somewhat like an evolution theory. Psalm 41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
God is not of a natural body as we are, but the Son became flesh as John describes in John 1:14. Isaiah61:1-3
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted , to proclaim liberty to the captives , and the opening of the prison to them that are bound ;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
Jesus said of Himself when reading Isaiah "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted , to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord." (Luke 4:18-19)
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
It is clear that God is a Spirit who is not created, and is from everlasting, and to everlasting.
God cannot be physical (natural) for He is invisible according to scripture. When the Bible talks about Moses and others seeing God face to face one must understand that He can show Himself in any manner He desires for His own glory. As children of God through Christ Jesus we should concentrate more on the spiritual aspects of truth rather than the carnal or physical aspects which are very limited in comparison to the grandeur of God Almighty.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
You wrote, "should we think that God was natural first?" No, we shouldn't because this scripture in 1 Corinthians 15 is describing a "new birth" in Christ, an allegory, using creation as an example. You might have forgotten verse 44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." However one wants to think, it is still proven that the earthly natural (flesh) has been created first, and through Christ the spiritual follows in every case when the children of God are born again. As we know in Genesis the natural is created by the heavenly Spirit of God, and on earth the spiritual is given after the natural is created. Therefore heavenly and earthy are different in explanations given in scripture.
1 Corinthians 15 Verses 48 and 49 which also should be taken in context "As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have (past tense) borne the image of the earthy, we shall (future tense) also bear the image of the heavenly."
With all due respect, your explanation sounds somewhat like an evolution theory. Psalm 41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
God is not of a natural body as we are, but the Son became flesh as John describes in John 1:14. Isaiah61:1-3
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted , to proclaim liberty to the captives , and the opening of the prison to them that are bound ;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
Jesus said of Himself when reading Isaiah "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted , to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord." (Luke 4:18-19)
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
It is clear that God is a Spirit who is not created, and is from everlasting, and to everlasting.
God cannot be physical (natural) for He is invisible according to scripture. When the Bible talks about Moses and others seeing God face to face one must understand that He can show Himself in any manner He desires for His own glory. As children of God through Christ Jesus we should concentrate more on the spiritual aspects of truth rather than the carnal or physical aspects which are very limited in comparison to the grandeur of God Almighty.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Last edited:
John 1:1 “word.”
Greek “word”=3056 Yehday yeh-dah'-ee perhaps from a form corresponding to 3061; Judaistic; Jehdai, an Israelite:--Jehdai.
In Hebrew “ Yehday” יָהְדָּי Means “the echoes.”
Particularly, in the “Feast of Tabernacles,” we can find that there were certain measurements of flour mixed with oil to be offered with the Bullock, being an allegory, or comparison, representing the attributes, and sovereignty of Jesus Christ. This measurement was called an “omer” which means promise. Psalm 68:11 The Lord (*Adonai) gave the **word: great was the company of those that published it.
**Word=[FONT=arial, sans-serif]562[FONT=arial, sans-serif] 'omer o'-mer the same as [/FONT][FONT=arial, sans-serif]561[/FONT][FONT=arial, sans-serif]:--promise, speech, thing, word. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]*Lord=[/FONT]136 'Adonay ad-o-noy' am emphatic form of 113; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only):--(my) Lord.[FONT=arial, sans-serif]אדוני[/FONT]*
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]א [/FONT]The leader/the beginning
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]ד [/FONT]entrance
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]ו [/FONT]add
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]ני [/FONT]the heir
*Adonai means “the leader created an entrance to add the heir.”
Romans 8:29 “For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
James 2:5 Hearken , my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
In Colossians 1:18 “the firstborn from the dead” clearly defines the resurrection, not Jesus' natural birth.
Our Spiritual life begins with the ”new birth” through Christ Jesus, not before, as we revisit the conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus. He should have known according to the law and the prophets.
John 3:10 “Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?”
We should NEVER use the explanations of salvation, that are given in scripture, to explain a spiritual existence before a natural birth, for being born again is the core truth for God's children.
Greek “word”=3056 Yehday yeh-dah'-ee perhaps from a form corresponding to 3061; Judaistic; Jehdai, an Israelite:--Jehdai.
In Hebrew “ Yehday” יָהְדָּי Means “the echoes.”
Particularly, in the “Feast of Tabernacles,” we can find that there were certain measurements of flour mixed with oil to be offered with the Bullock, being an allegory, or comparison, representing the attributes, and sovereignty of Jesus Christ. This measurement was called an “omer” which means promise. Psalm 68:11 The Lord (*Adonai) gave the **word: great was the company of those that published it.
**Word=[FONT=arial, sans-serif]562[FONT=arial, sans-serif] 'omer o'-mer the same as [/FONT][FONT=arial, sans-serif]561[/FONT][FONT=arial, sans-serif]:--promise, speech, thing, word. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]*Lord=[/FONT]136 'Adonay ad-o-noy' am emphatic form of 113; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only):--(my) Lord.[FONT=arial, sans-serif]אדוני[/FONT]*
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]א [/FONT]The leader/the beginning
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]ד [/FONT]entrance
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]ו [/FONT]add
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]ני [/FONT]the heir
*Adonai means “the leader created an entrance to add the heir.”
Romans 8:29 “For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
James 2:5 Hearken , my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
In Colossians 1:18 “the firstborn from the dead” clearly defines the resurrection, not Jesus' natural birth.
Our Spiritual life begins with the ”new birth” through Christ Jesus, not before, as we revisit the conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus. He should have known according to the law and the prophets.
John 3:10 “Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?”
We should NEVER use the explanations of salvation, that are given in scripture, to explain a spiritual existence before a natural birth, for being born again is the core truth for God's children.
We are not children of God until after we are born again. I would say the phase "we are children of God by being born again through Jesus" differently like this. "We become the children of God when we are born again through Jesus"
As you quoted me "The Spirit of *adoption says it all." Romans 8:15
As you quoted me "The Spirit of *adoption says it all." Romans 8:15
Last edited: