you're very welcome... say, did you see post 752? ... it's totally cool if you saw it and just didn't want to talk about it... I just didn't want it to get lost in the shuffle...
Mormons / Latter Day Saints
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you're very welcome... say, did you see post 752? ... it's totally cool if you saw it and just didn't want to talk about it... I just didn't want it to get lost in the shuffle...
is it Eli in gen1:1 or Elohim? is it used as a personal name, or rather as a title, like we use the title 'god'? my impression of Jesus on the cross is that he's just quoting PS 22...
The Mormon position on the Holy Trinity is very simple. Trinity means 3. So we believe that there are 3 that make up the Trinity. God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. All Christian churches believe this statement.
Where Mormons differ to some degree from Nicean Christianity is that we believe that these 3 are separate and distinct individuals and they act as 1 God in purpose and unity. Not 3 separate persons in 1 being. So if you were to look through Mormon looking glasses at the Trinity you would see 2 persons standing in front of you and the Holy Spirit would be in you so you could withstand the sight. If you looked at the Trinity using Nicean Christianity looking glasses, you would see 1 person standing in front of you and the Holy Ghost would be in you so you could withstand the sight.
The Trinity is the most interesting study in the world and the most important. I love to talk about it and discuss it with other people, even if we do not agree on the second level of knowledge. Which most Christian churches do not either.
There are many scriptures to support the Mormon position. There are many scriptures that support the Nicean Christian position. A long and drawn out discussion usually takes place and then we usually part as friends, agreeing to disagree.
There is one reason I have been willing to stay with the Mormon position. It is because I have been able to reconcile all scriptures that support the Nicean position with the scriptures that support the Mormon position. You cannot, however, reconcile the scriptures that support the Mormon position with the scriptures that support the Nicean position.
So what that means is that in my studies, all scriptures in the bible that talk about the Trinity can be reconciled to the Mormon position. But many of the scriptures in the bible that talk about the Trinity cannot be reconciled to the Nicean position. The Nicean Christians have to practically deny many scriptures or twist them so hard as to fall outside the range of reasonableness.
I had to read this paragraph over 3 times but I think I have it now. LOL It seemed totally contradictory to itself. I asked several post back if I could ask you a question after you asked me about the name "Eli." I hope it was understandable to you in the 2 posts I explained. Now let me know if I can ask you a question and then we can continue on. If not, please let me know that also if you would. We can continue on the trinity thing if you would like. I'm looking forward to conversation on this topic.
In Genesis 1:1 it is Elohim. This is the plural of Eli. The churchmen over the years starting with the Jews and ending with the Christians have spent millions of hours trying to reconcile a plurality of Gods who created the earth. When Moses used the name Elohim it really means Gods, not God, and it has been a thorn for 5 milleniums
So churchmen and scholars have worked hard to somehow minimize and singularize this plural word/name, Elohim. One of the ways they have done this is by saying that this name is a title and not a name. In contrast Yahweh (first found in Genesis 2:4) the second creator God, actually is one of the names of Jesus. Eli is the name of his Father, God the Father.
i'm not studied or trained in reading the old languages, but i am able to look for information.
in Genesis 1:1, "Elohim" is a plural noun -- it is always plural -- but "created" is in the singular case.
Genesis 1:1 does not indicate that the heavens & earth were created by a multitude of 'gods'
does the scripture not many times say, 'there is only one God' ?
yes, the scripture does make that clear. for example:
This is what the LORD says --
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the LORD, the Maker of all things,
who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself
who foils the signs of false prophets
and makes fools of diviners,
who overthrows the learning of the wise
and turns it into nonsense
(Isaiah 44:24-25)
It is corrupted because it makes no sense in context as it stands today.
In Genesis chapter 1, God created everything in 6 days and then rests. In Genesis chapter 2:5 this wierd little scripture says that nothing that was created in chapter 1 is on the earth yet? Then after 2:5 it starts another creation story.
If 2:5 was not corrupt it would be the perfect bridge from chapter 1 to chapter 2. Because it would have said that all things created in chapter 1 were created spiritually before they were created naturally upon the earth in chapter 2.
If we had the correct text for 2:5 we would not have a problem understanding why there are 2 creation stories.
Do you understand how many millions of mind-bending hours scholars and churchmen have searched the Greek and the Hebrew and labored diligently to come up with why God had 2 creation stories. Do you realize how many different scenarios have been postulated to reconcile this problem. The solution is 2:5. If it said what it started out saying, no problems.
How would you reconcile these three scripture references considering the boldened words? Thanks
John 2:19-21
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up .
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building , and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
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This is from the Masoretic Text and as close to Hebrew that I have found without interpreting each letter. Hope it helps.
5 No shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no herb of the field had yet sprung up; for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground;
The whole of Genesis chapter 1, starting with 1:1 indicates multiple Gods are included in the creation. The plural noun Elohim screams out that Gods are active and not God as the translators mistranslated. I know this is kind of heretical, but Moses threw the curve ball back in 1400 BC and thats what he said, it is hard to dispute. Like I said, millions of mind-boggling hours have been spent by countless churchmen and scholars to figure out what the heck Moses was thinking.
But then in Genesis 1:26 we have the interesting words, "Let us" create man. Who is with God? He is not alone. Again, what was Moses thinking.
Then in Genesis 3:5 an interesting statement by an interesting person, satan, who is tempting Eve, says that if she eats of the fruit, she will become as gods. Does satan know something we don't know, or is he lying (which we know he does well) to get her to partake.
Well, Genesis 3:22 clears satan of lying about the gods statement, which is surprising. Listen to what God says when he acknowledges that Adam and Eve have partaken of the fruit. He says, "...Behold the man is become as one of us...
Wow, what a mind-bender. Adam and Eve have become like one of us. One of who? Apparently there is more than 1 God. Well that's what the plural noun, Elohim is telling us. We should not be totally surprised.
Genesis 11:7 When God decided to punish the people of Shinar, who tried to build the tower of Babel, he said, Let us go down and confound their language. Who went with God to confound?
So rethink Elohim, its a lot deeper than you think, or want to think. It throws a wrench into a lot of biblical events. Like I say the plural noun, Elohim has been completely ignored and minimized to try to get it out of the way, but its there and it is really hard to get around, once you take a good look at it.
What a strange little verse. We are now in the second chapter but none of the creations in chapter 1 are found on the earth, and Adam is not found there. So where did everything go? Oh, Oh, it was your time for another question. We will come back to this when its my turn.
Did you want to bold "I will raise it up" in vs 19? Just thinking.
I'm not sure what I am reconciling, but let me see if this is right. If we know that God raised up Jesus from the dead, how is it that Jesus says that I (meaning Jesus) will raise up the temple, meaning his own body? This looks like Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit all raised up Jesus. It may even appear that they are 3 in the same being.
This is how the creation was completed: God gave Jesus the power and authority to create the world and then Jesus went out and did the work of creation. God is the Architect, Jesus is the Masterbuilder, the Holy Ghost was present, but we are not sure what his function was.
It is the same in the resurrection. God gave Jesus the power and the authority to raise the dead and Jesus took that power and authority and raised his own body from the dead. God is the Architect, Jesus is the Masterbuilder. The Holy Spirit is attending to Jesus we are sure. All the scriptures are correct, God did it, but through his son Jesus Christ, with the assistance of the Holy Spirit. This explanation allows God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be separate and distinct, rather than 3 in the same being.
Good explanation. I don't want to hinder our question and answer thing that I think is very nice. Could this scripture be included with your explanation? "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24
I will not ask any more until you ask me your next question.
You explained it well so I could understand your thoughts. That's what I meant when I said "good explanation." I see it slightly different. There is no need for me to explain my differences at this point. I don't want to hold you up after your take on John 4:24 Thanks
C
Calminian
Guest
I witness to mormons all the time, but not sure how effective this line of argumentation is. To my knowledge they don't own Utah, and to my knowledge, their particular members are not really known for their lawlessness. Utah is full us other religions as well, including born again christians. Do we blame them too for the intercity crime rate?
I just don't think this is a fair, and winsome approach.
what a load of bunk!
look, all you need to do is read the whole context, and not pull one verse out and ignore everything else:
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens. Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
(Genesis 1:4-7)
the 5th verse is not a contradiction. a general outline of creation is given in the first chapter, ending with the creation of man and God satisfied with His work, resting.
in chapter 2 there is a brief re-cap of the account given in chapter 1. it is not a corrupted and contradictory statement that mist came up and watered the plants of the earth when there was no man yet to till it. note verse 7 -- "then the Lord formed a man" -- this is not a second creation of man -- this is a synopsis of what has already been laid out in the preceding chapter, and the detail about how the plants were watered precedes the account of the great flood, where scripture records that for the first time rain fell.
don't let yourselves be led into confusion by ignorance and deceit! look to the scripture and see for yourself!
are you comfortable with the rest of scripture directly opposing what you just said?
why don't you respond to what i posted, that "Elohim" is a noun that is always plural, but the verb case in Genesis 1:1 is singular?
the Word was with God and was God from the beginning (John 1). Wisdom was with Him when He laid the foundations of the Earth (Proverbs 8). if the Lord says "let us make man" He is speaking royally, and being one God in three persons as revealed to mankind, He is still ONE GOD. if you reject this, you must also think the Shema is corrupt?
"hear o Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one God" (Deuteronomy 6)
the Torah is not corrupt. it is the false prophets Joseph Smith and Brigham Young who are corrupt, and who have polluted your understanding, making you think that you can ascend to the throne. for this very sin, Satan was cast from heaven. how are you not full of fear of Him?
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