The Sin of Pacifism

[elf3]

I sure in the heck NEVER want to have to pull my gun on anyone but if I need to use that extreme a force to stop someone trying to kill innocent people...I pray God will give me the courage and strength to do so.

 

[Jimbone]

Thanks. Perhaps someone will start a thread for further discussion on that. Hopefully it doesn't continue to escalate here.

If it does sorry about that.

I hadn't given this subject too much thought since being regenerated, but I feel both cases are presented well, but I am going to have to say I feel that in the right situations not defending people is inexcusable. That being said not everyone He gave the ability to do this. I grew up fighting, nothing too crazy but if you wanted to try me I was just the one you weren't looking for. There was nothing I liked more than changing someone's (who thought they were about to walk up and down me easily) mind with just the threat of violence. I am not scared to punch, but the Lord had a remedy for all that pride. He took my knock out arm, so I can see the pacifist side of the argument a little better then I could have before as well.

I guess in some kind of extreme invasion scenario (or anything like that where you're being attacked for no reason) it would be called for to defend your loved ones by any means. In everyday life, or any situation it's possible to walk away from I think you should. That's how I look at it anyway.

 

[Calminian]

Actually there are a few cases when talking them down has worked, rare yes but it has happened, and I will fight if need be to protect others I have no issue with the whole fighting to save others. What I have an issue with is calling it a sin not to fight, there are many reasons why a person wont or in some cases cant fight.

Well now you're obfuscating the OP, as such a claim was never made in it. The sin is that if you can save someone and choose not to, due to your pacifistic philosophy, you're are in sin.

James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.

What you're arguing for, I completely agree. Of course you have to count the cost, and do what's best in regard to the big picture. But if you let someone murder someone else, when all you had to do was act, violently if necessary, you are indeed in sin. There is not commandment in scripture forbidding you to act in self defense, and I would argue there are other principles in scripture that demand your action, especial if it's in regard to your own household which God has put you over.

There's a time to talk and a time to act.

 

[Calminian]

...I feel that in the right situations not defending people is inexcusable…..

Well said.

 

[Deadtosin]

This was written for the believer who was under the Law of Moses. It's meaning and application for the New Testament saint is different.

Ecclesiastes 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

 

[Calminian]

Ecclesiastes 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Definitely a timeless principle. The death penalty mandate of Gen. 9 was actually written before the Mosaic Law came into existence.

 

[Deadtosin]

Jason, I'm not going to argue with you. We definitely disagree. You think the bible tells you that there could be no reason for you to have to rise up against evil and I don't buy your interpretation, nor your logic. Each of us will one day stand before God. I can't say "sorry Lord, but Jason told me it was wrong" Maybe you aren't a hand of God. Maybe your a foot. I however don't have that luxury. Where God puts me I have to interact.

 

[Jason0047]

I've noticed a lot of pacifism sentiments are being expressed in this forum, so I thought I'd challenge them directly here. Jason is one particular advocate, so I'll invite him to dialog and defend his position. I'm actually going to make the argument that pacifism is hateful and one of the worst sins one can commit, so there's quite a contrast between myself and him. To get the ball rolling, I'll quote some of his statements.



This thread actually directs to a different forum on a different website, so I'll cut and paste some of it here so you don't have switch over.



Wasn't able to bring in all over, but this is sufficient to get things going.

Calling on angels instead of guns?:

Regarding protection by angels, this is actually one of the lies that Satan tried to tempt Christ with.

Matt. 4:6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
“He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and,
‘In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone."

Jesus of course answered,

Matt. 4:7 ...“It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’ ”

The implication of this is quite profound. Satan was telling Christ to depend on angels to such an extent that he was tempting Him to do something foolish that would require their assistance. But Christ likened this to testing God—forcing Him to bail you out when you could have bailed yourself out. Christ says this is a sin.

In Matthew 4, trusting in God to protect you in every day life situation (That God has put you in), is in no way related to forcing a situation yourself in order to get God to protect you. In other words, there is a big difference between throwing yourself in a pool of sharks with chum in it (And testing God on whether He is going to protect you) versus say trusting in God to protect you when you swim in the ocean (Either at the beach and or because you were forced to do so because your boat broke down). For do you wear shark body armor every time you swim in the ocean? How about if you just dip yourself in the water at waist length for a few minutes? Should I call someone to go get the shark body armor or some kind of iron man suit if you do decide to take a dip in the ocean at waste length? Where is your faith? Do you actually believe God needs you to carry a gun or a sword?

If you were to read the New Tesament at any length on the topic of persecution, you would realize that the apostles did not fight back, but they endured suffering and hardships in order to preach the gospel. Just as Christ suffered we are to emulate Christ. We are to conform to His image. He set the example. Are we not to follow his actions? How about the examples of the apostles? Where did they ever attack others physically with their fists and or with a sword? Did Steven try to pick up the stones and throw them back at his accusers? No, no. Most certainly not. He prayed for them in the hope that God would not hold their wrongful actions against them. Jesus did the same thing. He prayed to the Father to forgive those who were crucifying Him, for they did not know what they were doing. Yet, your message is contrary to that, though.

For Jesus came not to judge, but to save. We are under the age of grace and not the age of the Law of Moses.
Yes, Jesus will return with His saints and destroy those evil nations that have refused to repent.

But for now, God has commanded us to turn the other cheek and to do good towards our enemies. Killing them is not doing them good. In other words, if God tells you to stop. You stop. If God tells you to go, you go.

But when our neighbors and families are in danger, we are obligated out of love to protect them. To be a pacifist at that point is actually an act of hatred. You may think you're loving your enemy, but you're actually hating your neighbors, friends and family, by allowing them to be harmed or worse. I can't imagine a more unloving act than to sit by while your child is harmed or killed, when you could have prevented it with force—even lethal force. Even worse would be to sit around asking angels to bail you out.

There are non lethal ways to stop violence. It's called peace making. Have you ever thought of rebuking them in the name of Jesus Christ to stop and tell them that Jesus loves them? Did you ever think of quoting Scripture? Remember when Peter could have walked on water? Why couldn't have walked on water? It was because he lacked faith. See, God doesn't need you to punch people. He could give your enemy a heart attack or make them to feel great terror at your words (If you simply believe). For the weapons of our warefare are not the weapons of this world. In Ephesians 6, it tells us to put on the whole amor of God.. This is not talking about physical body armor and a sword. This is talking about spiritual armor and the Word of God.

Jesus didn't mean a literal sword?:

Now regarding the sword, Jason makes the case that when Jesus told us to sell our cloak and buy one, he was speaking figuratively. He offers no actual evidence of this, but points to other figurative language Jesus used, and the fact that Jesus said turn the other cheek.

Matt. 5:39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Now this is a situation where familiarity with the audience Jesus was addressing can give great insight into what Jesus was saying. In ANE culture, a slap on the cheek was among the most grievous insults you could give. Perhaps today an equivalent might be spitting, but a slap even today is quite insulting. But, really it's just an insult, and Jesus' point. He was pointing men back to principles taught in the old testament.

Yes, Jesus did not mean a literal sword. God is not going to tell you to buy a physical sword and then later rebuke you for taking up your sword that He told you to just buy. That would be confusion; And God is not the author of confusion. Also, if you were to look at the OT reference, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, etc. This was clearly in reference to executing Judgment upon another physically. In other words, if someone takes your eye, you take their eye, etc. See the OT reference. When you understand that OT passage, you will understand the context of what Jesus was talking about. Turn the other cheek is in reference to that.

 

[Deadtosin]

Jesus did not mean a literal sword.

This coming from the guy who claims Jesus turned water into grape juice.

 

[Jason0047]

This coming from the guy who claims Jesus turned water into grape juice.

You are changing the topic because you can't actually defend or prove your case with Scripture concerning this topic.

But for the sake of argument: Dictionary.com says wine can be fermented or unfermented. This is in line with even older dictionaries that are out of print. The word "wine" can refer to freshly squeezed grape juice that has not went thru the entire fermentation process naturally. Yes, wine is naturally fermenting, but freshly squeezed grape juice is not called fermented wine because it did not go thru the fermenation process yet whereby it is alcoholic.

 

[elf3]

In Matthew 4, trusting in God to protect you in every day life situation (That God has put you in), is in no way related to forcing a situation yourself in order to get God to protect you. In other words, there is a big difference between throwing yourself in a pool of sharks with chum in it (And testing God on whether He is going to protect you) versus say trusting in God to protect you when you swim in the ocean (Either at the beach and or because you were forced to do so because your boat broke down). For do you wear shark body armor every time you swim in the ocean? How about if you just dip yourself in the water at waist length for a few minutes? Should I call someone to go get the shark body armor or some kind of iron man suit if you do decide to take a dip in the ocean at waste length? Where is your faith? Do you actually believe God needs you to carry a gun or a sword?

If you were to read the New Tesament at any length on the topic of persecution, you would realize that the apostles did not fight back, but they endured suffering and hardships in order to preach the gospel. Just as Christ suffered we are to emulate Christ. We are to conform to His image. He set the example. Are we not to follow his actions? How about the examples of the apostles? Where did they ever attack others physically with their fists and or with a sword? Did Steven try to pick up the stones and throw them back at his accusers? No, no. Most certainly not. He prayed for them in the hope that God would not hold their wrongful actions against them. Jesus did the same thing. He prayed to the Father to forgive those who were crucifying Him, for they did not know what they were doing. Yet, your message is contrary to that, though.

For Jesus came not to judge, but to save. We are under the age of grace and not the age of the Law of Moses.
Yes, Jesus will return with His saints and destroy those evil nations that have refused to repent.

But for now, God has commanded us to turn the other cheek and to do good towards our enemies. Killing them is not doing them good. In other words, if God tells you to stop. You stop. If God tells you to go, you go.



There are non lethal ways to stop violence. It's called peace making. Have you ever thought of rebuking them in the name of Jesus Christ to stop and tell them that Jesus loves them? Did you ever think of quoting Scripture? Remember when Peter could have walked on water? Why couldn't have walked on water? It was because he lacked faith. See, God doesn't need you to punch people. He could give your enemy a heart attack or make them to feel great terror at your words (If you simply believe). For the weapons of our warefare are not the weapons of this world. In Ephesians 6, it tells us to put on the whole amor of God.. This is not talking about physical body armor and a sword. This is talking about spiritual armor and the Word of God.



Yes, Jesus did not mean a literal sword. God is not going to tell you to buy a physical sword and then later rebuke you for taking up your sword that He told you to just buy. That would be confusion; And God is not the author of confusion. Also, if you were to look at the OT reference, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, etc. This was clearly in reference to executing Judgment upon another physically. In other words, if someone takes your eye, you take their eye, etc. See the OT reference. When you understand that OT passage, you will understand the context of what Jesus was talking about. Turn the other cheek is in reference to that.

Did you actually take the time to read my post about the difference between what happened to the apostles and someone attacking you?

 

[Jason0047]

Jason, I'm not going to argue with you. We definitely disagree. You think the bible tells you that there could be no reason for you to have to rise up against evil and I don't buy your interpretation, nor your logic. Each of us will one day stand before God. I can't say "sorry Lord, but Jason told me it was wrong" Maybe you aren't a hand of God. Maybe your a foot. I however don't have that luxury. Where God puts me I have to interact.

Do you honestly think I want you to believe a word I am saying as if it is my teaching alone? By all means no. Don't be silly. Test everything with the Word of God. Compare Scripture with Scripture. Be a good Berean. For the teaching I have learned comes from the Word of God alone. I am encouraging you not to take my word for it but to seek the truth out for yourself with God and His Word. I am not talking about what you feel is right based on outside circumstances or a quick reading of Scripture. For honestly you want to defend your position on using violence to protect yourself. You see it as good and beneficial. But what if you are wrong? Do you not owe it to yourself to look at this topic without any biased thinking? In other words, consider both alternatives as being true and look at all the verses and see which position is backed up more by Scripture. Ask God to show you the truth on this topic using Scripture (From an unbiased position). If it takes you a week, or a month, or a year to come to the truth, then so be it. But study to show yourself approved unto God on this matter, my friend. I know that if you do dedicate yourself to find the truth on this topic, you will find it. Not a truth that you want to be true, but a truth that is founded upon God's Word.

 

[crossnote]

Anyways Calminian gave you a great example with Abraham our father of the faith who mustered up his army to battle in order to rescue Lot his nephew.
Mind answering that?

Still waiting on Jason to answer this issue with Abraham.

 

[Jason0047]

Did you actually take the time to read my post about the difference between what happened to the apostles and someone attacking you?

I was busy with other things and in replying to other people posts here. Anyways, I got to run to work. I will check it out later.

 

[elf3]

Do you honestly think I want you to believe a word I am saying as if it is my teaching alone? By all means no. Don't be silly. Test everything with the Word of God. Compare Scripture with Scripture. Be a good Berean. For the teaching I have learned comes from the Word of God alone. I am encouraging you not to take my word for it but to seek the truth out for yourself with God and His Word. I am not talking about what you feel is right based on outside circumstances or a quick reading of Scripture. For honestly you want to defend your position on using violence to protect yourself. You see it as good and beneficial. But what if you are wrong? Do you not owe it to yourself to look at this topic without any biased thinking? In other words, consider both alternatives as being true and look at all the verses and see which position is backed up more by Scripture. Ask God to show you the truth on this topic using Scripture (From an unbiased position). If it takes you a week, or a month, or a year to come to the truth, then so be it. But study to show yourself approved unto God on this matter, my friend. I know that if you do dedicate yourself to find the truth on this topic, you will find it. Not a truth that you want to be true, but a truth that is founded upon God's Word.

I will ask this again because Jason is ignoring a question. JASON did you actually read my post about the difference between what the apostles went through and if if someone attacks you? The difference is a defending of your faith and a random attack.

 

[elf3]

Oops sorry. We posted at the same time yours beat mine by a second lol.

 

[Jason0047]

I will ask this again because Jason is ignoring a question. JASON did you actually read my post about the difference between what the apostles went through and if if someone attacks you? The difference is a defending of your faith and a random attack.

Not ignoring. I have to work and I am not God to answer everyone at the same time.

 

[Calminian]

... Test everything with the Word of God. Compare Scripture with Scripture. Be a good Berean…..

That's all we're doing here, brother—testing pacifism by the Word of God. Eventually we're going to have to agree to disagree, but the biblical view is all that matters. In that we're all in agreement, I'm sure.

 

[elf3]

That's all we're doing here, brother—testing pacifism by the Word of God. Eventually we're going to have to agree to disagree, but the biblical view is all that matters. In that we're all in agreement, I'm sure.

I think this is a good point to agree to disagree. I'll keep carrying and defend anyone if the need ever comes up. I pray the need never comes up.

 

[JesusIsAll]

That's all we're doing here, brother—testing pacifism by the Word of God. Eventually we're going to have to agree to disagree, but the biblical view is all that matters. In that we're all in agreement, I'm sure.

But it becomes useless to cite the Bible after a point, if somebody starts allegorizing scripture that doesn't fit their errant view: in other words, make the Bible whatever meanings they wish to attach. There's no reasoning with somebody insisting on trying to fit square pegs into round holes, when the reasoning by the word of God is reduce to fuzzy human logic and personal prejudices. This could go on forever, as evidenced by many threads of repetitive, differing views which cannot all be right in scriptural light, yet no agreement ever reached.