The Sin of Pacifism

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
Re: The Pacifism of Sin

I my state, it's called criminal negligence and you can (and should) be prosecuted for it.
Please give us an example. Does criminal negligence include not using a gun and or employing your fists of fury upon oncoming attackers? In situations of protection: Do you think my prayer is uselessless? Do you think my trusting in God for protection by faith has no merit? Ye have little faith if you do.
 
E

Ecclesiastik

Guest
Re: The Pacifism of Sin

Please give us an example. Does criminal negligence include not using a gun and or employing your fists of fury upon oncoming attackers? In situations of protection: Do you think my prayer is uselessless? Do you think my trusting in God for protection by faith has no merit? Ye have little faith if you do.
That would also almost be like saying it is criminal negligence to be an average sized, average strengthed woman.
 
Mar 18, 2011
2,540
22
0
Re: The Pacifism of Sin

That would also almost be like saying it is criminal negligence to be an average sized, average strengthed woman.
size means a whole lot less with the proper training
 
May 14, 2014
611
4
0
Re: The Pacifism of Sin

Please give us an example. Does criminal negligence include not using a gun and or employing your fists of fury upon oncoming attackers? In situations of protection: Do you think my prayer is uselessless? Do you think my trusting in God for protection by faith has no merit? Ye have little faith if you do.
An example would be using force, up to and including deadly physical force to terminate in progress crimes such as rape, child molestation, arson etc. In such cases, citizens are protected under the law in using force normally granted only to police officers. Criminal negligence is indifference to life.
I'm not opposed to youre prayer. Asking God for help is always a good thing to do. I'm also not opposed to the idea that God might use you to protect a defenseless person from a maniac. I think you're taking God's word out of context.
 
Mar 18, 2011
2,540
22
0
Has it ever crossed your mind Jason that you "happening upon" a situation like that could have been God's answer to the victims prayer?
 
E

Ecclesiastik

Guest
Re: The Pacifism of Sin

size means a whole lot less with the proper training
Correct, my good sir. But in this case I would only have to re-phrase to say that it would be criminal negligence to not be trained in martial arts, which would be the average woman. So, one would only have to say that it would be criminal negligence to be an average woman.
 
May 14, 2014
611
4
0
Re: The Pacifism of Sin

That would also almost be like saying it is criminal negligence to be an average sized, average strengthed woman.
of course, the common sense application is that someone's interference would help the situation. But then common sense is lacking around here.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
Re: The Pacifism of Sin

That would also almost be like saying it is criminal negligence to be an average sized, average strengthed woman.
No doubt.....Moses wanted to pray one time and God said to act instead of praying...resulted in SAVING the Israelites and destruction of the Egyptian army under Pharaoh!

There is a time to pray and a time to ACT........
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
Re: The Pacifism of Sin

An example would be using force, up to and including deadly physical force to terminate in progress crimes such as rape, child molestation, arson etc. In such cases, citizens are protected under the law in using force normally granted only to police officers. Criminal negligence is indifference to life.
I'm not opposed to youre prayer. Asking God for help is always a good thing to do. I'm also not opposed to the idea that God might use you to protect a defenseless person from a maniac. I think you're taking God's word out of context.
I agree and will add....we have good Samaritan laws and if you don't help to stop a murder/rape/violent crime you will be charged as well....Doesn't God tell us to obey the laws of the land unless they TOTALLY contradict the word!
 
E

elf3

Guest
You all keep turning this around to the persecution of our faith.

That isn't what this is about. It's about defending the common man against an assaitent.

If it comes down to a Christian being persecuted because of their faith I'll stand right beside them.

Let me try this example yet again.
A person with a gun is going through the mall just shooting people for no reason. No persecution of Christians just shooting people. I have a conceal carry so I decide to stop him. Possibly saving many lives while I drop him. Or do I turn my back on the other people and not worry about them.
 
May 14, 2014
611
4
0
Re: The Pacifism of Sin

I agree and will add....we have good Samaritan laws and if you don't help to stop a murder/rape/violent crime you will be charged as well....Doesn't God tell us to obey the laws of the land unless they TOTALLY contradict the word!
Actually bro, not defending the innocent is sin.
 

gzusfrk

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2013
359
5
18
Re: The Pacifism of Sin

I agree and will add....we have good Samaritan laws and if you don't help to stop a murder/rape/violent crime you will be charged as well....Doesn't God tell us to obey the laws of the land unless they TOTALLY contradict the word!
I agree and will add. If you see a person in need and dont help, well to me thats a sin, Jesus taught that we should give to the person that is hungry, not just tell them God be with you. What good is you love? If I see a person being beaten or raped I dont care how many bad guys their are i'm going in, even if it means my life. For God so loved the world that He gave.
 
E

elf3

Guest
Oh wait your pacifist you wouldn't do anything to help. "I'm sorry officer I could have saved many people but I am pacifist". As Dc stated you will be charged as well.
 
E

elf3

Guest
I have said this before and I'll say it again....If i am ever in that situation and I have to pull my gun to stop someone from killing innocent people then be darn sure I'll do it. If i have to use one bullet or all 3 mags...dude will drop!
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
Curious, Ecclesiastik, do you believe the Old Testament teaches pacifism? Do you believe Abraham was in sin when he rescued Lot for instance. Do you believe the death penalty command in Gen. 9? And if the O.T. advocates justified self defense, can you name me a single N.T. verse the overrides this?
The New Testament verse that overides violence is the very one you have been denying or twisting to your advantage from the beginning. Jesus referenced an eye for an eye passage from the Old Testament and He said, BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, meaning He is making a change. He is saying to turn the other cheek now. To not render evil for evil. To do good unto your enemies and to bless them that curse you and to pray for them. For vengeance is mine, saith the Lord. Yet you want to take part in that vengeance and strike back when they hit you accross the cheek. But in doing so, you are violating the Lord's command to turn the other cheek (Which is in reference to physical justice in the OT). He says don't hate your enemies but love them. Hitting them back and or shooting them is not loving your enemies.

Also, you seem to be saying that Christ told us to buy arms, but never to use them? Could you develop that though more?
Many times when Christ spoke, his disciples and other people misunderstood him to be speaking about physical things when Christ was talking about spiritual things. For Jesus said he had meat that they did not know about in John chapter 4. Jesus was speaking in spiritual terms for the meat He spoke of was doing the will of the Father. Nicodemus initially thought Jesus was talking about physical birth when Jesus told him he needed to be born again.

I believe Jesus allowed Peter and the others to buy a sword (i.e. the wrong kind of sword), so that Jesus could prove that He did not want us believers using physical swords because Jesus rebuked Peter for using his sword and said He could have called down a ton of angels to protect Himself. Also, Jesus made a very important statement that is not in your favor, too. He that lives by the sword shall die by the sword. Meaning, if you take up the sword as a way of life, you are going to die by it. This was not a postive statement by our Lord Jesus Christ but it was a negative statement as a part of Jesus rebuking Peter.

Also, what is your view on Romans 13 that specifically gives the state the right to use the sword?
This is to the state (Who are unbelievers) and this is not for the believer who is supposed to remain unspotted from the world.

Lastly, if someone came to your home and threatened your family, would you call the police, knowing they can use lethal force?
Would I be advocating violence by calling the police because they carry guns? No. I am not. First, if it is a situation such as a riot and or a violent situation that has gotten out of control, the police are God's ministers of justice. This is what Romans 13 talks about. If I find that my prayer for the stopping of the violence immediately and my rebuking of my enemies is not applicable to the situation, then God can and does use unbelieving law enforcement officers to bring order to the situation. I realize that there is a time where God can intervene to protect me and my loved ones, and there are times when I realize that I may have to be persecuted for my faith, and there are times, that God wants me to submit to the authorities in power by doing everything I can to bring peace and order to a bad situation. I can pray that the police resolve the situation with as little to no violence as possible. But it is not in my hands. What the police do or not do with their guns is up to them. They may decide to resolve the situation peacefully or with little to no violence. It's not like I am calling a hit man to take everyone out. The police are to protect and to serve. They are to bring order. But is that the call of a believer? To be a police officer? While I do not believe it is a sin that leads unto death to be a police officer who takes lives in self defense. I believe there are saved Christian police officers. However, I believe if an officer truly wants to follow Jesus to the most truthful extent, they will in time be leaded to forsake everything for the cause of Jesus Christ (Realizing that the ways of this world are far different than the ways of the kingdom of God).
 
Last edited:
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
Re: The Pacifism of Sin

I agree and will add. If you see a person in need and dont help, well to me thats a sin, Jesus taught that we should give to the person that is hungry, not just tell them God be with you. What good is you love? If I see a person being beaten or raped I dont care how many bad guys their are i'm going in, even if it means my life. For God so loved the world that He gave.
No doubt.....If I seen a violent crime taking place and I have the ability to stop it by any means available I will step in....especially if it was a believer and or a Jewish person....to me it is (stOOpid) and anti-Christian to not step in to help by any means available....I will plead the mercy and grace of God if contrary to step in for sure! YEAH I know how to spell stupid....emphasis on OO hahaha!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
I have said this before and I'll say it again....If i am ever in that situation and I have to pull my gun to stop someone from killing innocent people then be darn sure I'll do it. If i have to use one bullet or all 3 mags...dude will drop!
Yeah no doubt.....unfortunately many go to seed on a few scriptures without taking the whole into view....My conscience would not allow me to walk away if a woman was being raped or a kid abused or some little old lady being murdered....Marine Corp doctrine would kick in...EVER INCREASING LEVELS of VIOLENCE to STOP what was happening for sure!
 
E

elf3

Guest
The New Testament verse that overides violence is the very one you have been denying or twisting to your advantage from the beginning. Jesus referenced an eye for an eye passage from the Old Testament and He said, BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, meaning He is making a change. He is saying to turn the other cheek now. To not render evil for evil. To do good unto your enemies and to bless them that curse you and to pray for them. For vengeance is mine, saith the Lord. Yet you want to take part in that vengeance and strike back when they hit you accross the cheek. But in doing so, you are violating the Lord's command to turn the other cheek (Which is in reference to physical justice in the OT). He says don't hate your enemies but love them. Hitting them back and or shooting them is not loving your enemies.



Many times when Christ spoke, his disciples and other people misunderstood him to be speaking about physical things when Christ was talking about spiritual things. For Jesus said he had meat that they did not know about in John chapter 4. Jesus was speaking in spiritual terms for the meat He spoke of was doing the will of the Father. Nicodemus initially thought Jesus was talking about physical birth when Jesus told him he needed to be born again.

I believe Jesus allowed Peter and the others to buy a sword (i.e. the wrong kind of sword), so that Jesus could prove that He did not want us believers using physical swords because Jesus rebuked Peter for using his sword and said He could have called down a ton of angels to protect Himself. Also, Jesus made a very important statement that is not in your favor, too. He that lives by the sword shall die by the sword. Meaning, if you take up the sword as a way of life, you are going to die by it. This was not a postive statement by our Lord Jesus Christ but it was a negative statement as a part of Jesus rebuking Peter.



This is to the state (Who are unbelievers) and this is not for the believer who is supposed to remain unspotted from the world.



Would I be advocating violence by calling the police because they carry guns? No. I am not. First, if it is a situation such as a riot and or a violent situation that has gotten out of control, the police are God's ministers of justice. This is what Romans 13 talks about. If I find that my prayer for the stopping of the violence immediately and my rebuking of my enemies is not applicable to the situation, then God can and does use unbelieving law enforcement officers to bring order to the situation. I realize that there is a time where God can intervene to protect me and my loved ones, and there are times when I realize that I may have to be persecuted for my faith, and there are times, that God wants me to submit to the authorities in power by doing everything I can to bring peace and order to a bad situation. I can pray that the police resolve the situation with as little to no violence as possible. But it is not in my hands. What the police do or not do with their guns is up to them. They may decide to resolve the situation peacefully or with little to no violence. It's not like I am calling a hit man to take everyone out. The police are to protect and to serve. They are to bring order. But is that the call of a believer? To be a police officer? While I do not believe it is a sin that leads unto death to be a police officer who takes lives in self defense. I believe there are saved Christian police officers. However, I believe if an officer truly wants to follow Jesus to the most truthful extent, they will in time be leaded to forsake everything for the cause of Jesus Christ (Realizing that the ways of this world are far different than the ways of the kingdom of God).
Skip the police are ten minutes away I can end this now. When I got my conceal carry I had to sign a paper. One of the things on this paper I signed was actually that I have the right to defend the public in those times of need. So yea the conceal carry owner is kinda in a way a police officer under the laws of "public arrest". Those of us with conceal carry are under a higher "magnifying glass" so to say.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
Has it ever crossed your mind Jason that you "happening upon" a situation like that could have been God's answer to the victims prayer?
I can try to pull an attacker off somebody and hold them and talk to them about Jesus, but I am not to hit them over the head or shoot them. We are to love our enemies. Those are Jesus' words. But if I know there is a killer in the house, it is not wrong or hypocritcal of me to call God's (primarily unbelieving) ministers (i.e. the police) because the police are not hit men. I also will try to resolve the situation as peacefully as possible by the power of Jesus Christ before anything else. For you have to remember that God IS IN CONTROL of everything that happens. God (Christ) holds all things together by the Word of His power. In other words, God can just speak one word and "poof", no more bad guy. But bad guys exist because God wants them to repent. You kill them and they can't repent and turn to God.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
Skip the police are ten minutes away I can end this now. When I got my conceal carry I had to sign a paper. One of the things on this paper I signed was actually that I have the right to defend the public in those times of need. So yea the conceal carry owner is kinda in a way a police officer under the laws of "public arrest". Those of us with conceal carry are under a higher "magnifying glass" so to say.
Your not getting it. I would be praying for the police to not use their guns and to resolve the situation peacefully. That way the bad guy could repent. Paul was a bad guy before he came to the faith, too. That is what you are not getting.