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Things do happen without God's say so. Jesus isn't the one making people murder, rape and commit sodomy. No, God is not powerless, God is infinite. Some things He does with miracles, other things He uses us for. God could have saved my sister from choking with a miracle, He didn't. He used me. He could have saved my brother from drowning with a miracle, He didn't. He used me. He could have stopped the serial killers in Phoenix with a miracle, He used me. He could feed the homeless, He uses us. He gives us opportunities to do His work, not because He needs us too, He gives us those chances as an opportunity to act in His love. I am not sitting here telling you I wish fight or kill anyone. I despise that you keep calling my hands "fists of fury" they are actually very well executed strikes. I usually only need one on the jaw and things are finished. It's not as brutal as you make it out to be. Yes, we saw how God used Jacobs life for the good of a nation. I saw that. I also saw where God used Moses' slaying of an Egyptian to cause Moses to leave Egypt before He could see the burning bush. We see that Moses drove the herders away from Zapporah that also needed to happen to put him in a place for the bush. When we read scripture we see all things. As ecclesiastes clearly states. "There is a time for everything" I am a visual person, and when I think, I see it in my brain. So through our conversations I am constantly seeing you allow kids to be murdered. I see you standing there rebuking "a lot like you rebuke us on CC" I see you talking to a guy about Jesus while he is shooting innocent people in a movie theater and it's rough. It's very hard for me to respect that. If not impossible.
You throw Jesus' name like it's nothing as well, that is upsetting. Do you really think the power of Jesus is going to stop someone from saying something that offends you? did you think that elf's words were evil when he didn't know you had a fiance? it's a good thing you invoked the power of Jesus Christ on such a serious occasion.
Geesh, I just read through the last few pages from where I left off posting this morning..this thread is wayy outta hand..
Why do you refuse to see that to defend someone a gun is NOT always required? A baseball bat, frying pan, heck even a rock would work to deter someone from harming someone else!! I guarantee if I'm pelting rocks at your head you aint gonna be attackin' no one!! You'll be too busy covering your head with your hands..lol.. We don't need guns to injure or wound an attacker. There's plenty of other methods that can be put into effect WITHOUT taking a life!!
Why do you refuse to see that to defend someone a gun is NOT always required? A baseball bat, frying pan, heck even a rock would work to deter someone from harming someone else!! I guarantee if I'm pelting rocks at your head you aint gonna be attackin' no one!! You'll be too busy covering your head with your hands..lol.. We don't need guns to injure or wound an attacker. There's plenty of other methods that can be put into effect WITHOUT taking a life!!
How is he gonna stop my mouth?
Oh and ladybug the starting point was really talking about a person with a gun shooting so that's why all the gun talk..well plus target shooting is fun
Oh and ladybug the starting point was really talking about a person with a gun shooting so that's why all the gun talk..well plus target shooting is fun
WHAT IS GOD SOVEREIGN OVER?
The Bible verses below are far from exhaustive, and each should be interpreted according to its genre and context. But I am convinced that these verses—rightly interpreted—definitively establish God’s absolute sovereignty over all things. And since compatiblism is true, none of this contradicts the equally biblical teaching that Satan is “the god of this world” (2 Cor. 4:4) and that human choices are genuine and significant.
God Is Sovereign Over . . .
Seemingly random things:
The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.
(Proverbs 16:33)
The heart of the most powerful person in the land:
The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD;
he turns it wherever he will.
(Proverbs 21:1)
Our daily lives and plans:
A man’s steps are from the LORD;
how then can man understand his way?
(Proverbs 20:24)
Many are the plans in the mind of a man,
but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand.
(Proverbs 19:21)
Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”—yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. . . . Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.”
(James 4:13-15)
Salvation:
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
(Romans 9:15-16)
As many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
(Acts 13:48)
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(Romans 8:29-30)
Life and death:
See now that I, even I, am he,
and there is no god beside me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
(Deuteronomy 32:39)
The LORD kills and brings to life;
he brings down to Sheol and raises up.
(1 Samuel 12:6)
Disabilities:
Then the LORD said to [Moses], “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?”
(Exodus 4:11)
The death of God’s Son:
Jesus, [who was] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
(Acts 2:23)
For truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
(Acts 4:27-28)
Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief. . . .
(Isaiah 53:10)
Evil things:
Is a trumpet blown in a city,
and the people are not afraid?
Does disaster come to a city,
unless the LORD has done it?
(Amos 3:6)
I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.
(Isaiah 45:7)
“The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.” In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong. . . . “Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.
(Job 1:21-22; 2:10)
[God] sent a man ahead of them, Joseph, who was sold as a slave. . . . As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
(Psalm 105:17; Genesis 50:21)
All things:
[God] works all things according to the counsel of his will.
(Ephesians 1:11)
Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases.
(Psalm 115:3)
I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
(Job 42:2)
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”
(Daniel 4:35)
The Bible verses below are far from exhaustive, and each should be interpreted according to its genre and context. But I am convinced that these verses—rightly interpreted—definitively establish God’s absolute sovereignty over all things. And since compatiblism is true, none of this contradicts the equally biblical teaching that Satan is “the god of this world” (2 Cor. 4:4) and that human choices are genuine and significant.
God Is Sovereign Over . . .
Seemingly random things:
The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.
(Proverbs 16:33)
The heart of the most powerful person in the land:
The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD;
he turns it wherever he will.
(Proverbs 21:1)
Our daily lives and plans:
A man’s steps are from the LORD;
how then can man understand his way?
(Proverbs 20:24)
Many are the plans in the mind of a man,
but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand.
(Proverbs 19:21)
Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”—yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. . . . Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.”
(James 4:13-15)
Salvation:
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
(Romans 9:15-16)
As many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
(Acts 13:48)
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(Romans 8:29-30)
Life and death:
See now that I, even I, am he,
and there is no god beside me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
(Deuteronomy 32:39)
The LORD kills and brings to life;
he brings down to Sheol and raises up.
(1 Samuel 12:6)
Disabilities:
Then the LORD said to [Moses], “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?”
(Exodus 4:11)
The death of God’s Son:
Jesus, [who was] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
(Acts 2:23)
For truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
(Acts 4:27-28)
Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief. . . .
(Isaiah 53:10)
Evil things:
Is a trumpet blown in a city,
and the people are not afraid?
Does disaster come to a city,
unless the LORD has done it?
(Amos 3:6)
I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.
(Isaiah 45:7)
“The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.” In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong. . . . “Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.
(Job 1:21-22; 2:10)
[God] sent a man ahead of them, Joseph, who was sold as a slave. . . . As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
(Psalm 105:17; Genesis 50:21)
All things:
[God] works all things according to the counsel of his will.
(Ephesians 1:11)
Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases.
(Psalm 115:3)
I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
(Job 42:2)
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”
(Daniel 4:35)
You are equating disobedience to Jesus' command to love your enemies in the area of using lethal force to stop an attacker with God's other sanctioned commands that are just as equally clear and easy to understand. You are going by life experience and what you think is good and right in your own eyes and you are not acting in accordance to God's Word. Nowhere did we ever read about Jesus and the apostles fighting back. Nowhere do we read about the guidelines of the art of war in self defense for the Christian believer by Paul and or the other apostles. You are making inferences from verses that really do not specifically say what you want it to say. You are walking by sight and not by faith. And we know that without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Are you walking by faith in the area of God being able to protect you? I say not. You are using your fists or a gun as your trust of protection.
I am a pacifist. I don't believe in initiating any fight, nor do I believe in antagonizing a bully. I do however believe that we have an scriptural obligation to protect our brother, up to and including giving our own lives to defend him. I can't help but believe that God fully expects every Christian to do every thing in his power (including his life) to defend God's kingdom.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends (neighbor, brother).
My question is "Are we going to pray the fire out, or are we going to grab the best tool to put it out?" In the event of any evil against us, God will provide the necessary tool. Grab the tool, pray for guidance, and face the evil with all that He has proved.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends (neighbor, brother).
My question is "Are we going to pray the fire out, or are we going to grab the best tool to put it out?" In the event of any evil against us, God will provide the necessary tool. Grab the tool, pray for guidance, and face the evil with all that He has proved.