The Sin of Pacifism

[kennethcadwell]

To be totally honest ken. It's hard for me to take you serious since you believe those Mary and Thomas gospel things are God breathed. Your only reason for them not being added is because Mary isn't full and Thomas was translated wrong. Do you not think that if they were to be added, God would have made it so because of His Sovereignty? There is a reason God didn't have man add them....Because they aren't His Word. Did you ever think of that?

Man put the English version of the bible we have together.
God inspired man to write the scriptures which were written in Greek and Hebrew.
Man has always interfered with God's way which is why we have so many different versions of the bible now, and if you compare them you will find that some have changed scripture to fit their view points, or make things what is not acceptable being now acceptable.

There are other versions of the gospel written by other Apostles or scribes that wrote for them that were not included in the bible, and a lot more epistles also. They were not included because they felt they did not need any more books for they didn't add anything else more needed to the belief of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and how one who follows Him should walk.

If you believe the books in the bible are the only inspired writings you need to do more research, and you will find the other books and why they were not included. Not all of them was because of time frame in which they were written, or because they are not God inspired, or incomplete or mistranslated.

Even the KJV has been found to have mistranslations in it, none of it has to do with the main salvation through Jesus.

 

[elf3]

Oh and by the way to both ken and Jason I will not apologize for calling out either of you on these items.

If someone else reads this just scroll back a couple posts and you will see what I am talking about.

Sovereignty of God? Yeah maybe you should both study the word.

 

[Deadtosin]

Not all of the OT applies any more.
There is no more sacrifices needed, the curses ( punishments ) that came with the law, and Jesus made changes ( adaptations ) to the moral aspects of the law. Example being that hatred being equal to murder, looking at another with lust in your heart is already adultery ( not just the physical act ).

The old testament says if man sheds mans blood by man his blood shall be shed, and eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.
Jesus says in the NT about eye for an eye, NO, to turn the other cheek and not resist an evil person.

Then He also goes further to say that we are to forgive others their trespasses ( sins ), or He will not forgive ours.
There are things from the OT that do very much apply, but that is mainly just the moral values it taught they we are to walk in. Not that we are to obey all the mosaic laws. Paul makes this clear in his teachings.

STOP PRETENDING JESUS PREACHED A DIFFERENT GOSPEL

But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'" (Matthew 4: 4, NKJV, c.f. Luke 4:4)
"So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD." (Deuteronomy 8:3)


"But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." (Matthew 9:13, cf. Matthew 12:7)
For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. (Hosea

He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? "For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' (Matthew 15:3, 4; cf. Mark 7:10)

"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you." (Exodus 20:12, cf Exodus 21:

"Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'" (Matthew 15:7-9, cf. Mark 7:6, 7)
Therefore the LORD said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men…" (Isaiah 29:13)


And Jesus said to them, "Yes. Have you never read, 'Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants You have perfected praise?'" (Matthew 21: 16b)
Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants You have ordained strength, because of Your enemies, that You may silence the enemy and the avenger." (Psalm 8:2)



Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?'" (Matthew 21:42, cf. Mark 12:10, 11, Luke 20:17)
The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD's doing; it is marvelous in our eyes. (Psalm 118:22, 23)





"But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:31-32, cf. Mark 12:26, 27, Luke 20:37-38)
Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. (Exodus 3:6)


"How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool?'" (Matthew 22:43, 44, cf. Mark 12:36, Luke 20:42, 43)
The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool." (Psalm 110:1)


"Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Matthew 24:15, 16)
"Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate." (Daniel 9:27, cf. Daniel 11:31, 12:11)


Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I will strike the Shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'" (Matthew 26:31, cf. Mark 14:27)
"Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, against the Man who is My Companion," says the LORD of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered; then I will turn My hand against the little ones." (Zechariah 13:7)


"For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end." (Luke 22:37)
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors. (Isaiah 53:12

JESUS FULFILLED THE SACRIFICE. JESUS EXPOUNDED ON THE LAWS, WE HAVE GONE FROM KINDERGARTEN TO 1ST GRADE. NOBODY CAN REMOVE THE OLD TESTAMENT FROM JESUS CHRIST!

JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAME YESTERDAY AND TODAY AND FOREVER!!

 

[elf3]

Man put the English version of the bible we have together.
God inspired man to write the scriptures which were written in Greek and Hebrew.
Man has always interfered with God's way which is why we have so many different versions of the bible now, and if you compare them you will find that some have changed scripture to fit their view points, or make things what is not acceptable being now acceptable.

There are other versions of the gospel written by other Apostles or scribes that wrote for them that were not included in the bible, and a lot more epistles also. They were not included because they felt they did not need any more books for they didn't add anything else more needed to the belief of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and how one who follows Him should walk.

If you believe the books in the bible are the only inspired writings you need to do more research, and you will find the other books and why they were not included. Not all of them was because of time frame in which they were written, or because they are not God inspired, or incomplete or mistranslated.

Even the KJV has been found to have mistranslations in it, none of it has to do with the main salvation through Jesus.

No dude the word is Sovereignty which means God is in control of all things. If God wanted those two things added they would be added.

 

[Jason0047]

Do Not Exercise Personal Revenge

In laying out what the Scriptures teach about handling matters such as have been described above, the Scriptures forbid personal revenge. Paul wrote,

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good (Rom. 12:19-21).

​

An individual does not have the right to "take the law into his own hands" and retaliate against those who sin against him. Nor does he have the right to allow hatred, bitterness, and wrath to consume his heart.

Government: God’s Instrument for Avenging Criminal Behavior

Having forbidden personal revenge, Paul immediately moves into the following discussion about the role of civil government in the very next verses.

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour (Rom. 13:1-7).

​

Notice the following points observed from this passage:

• God instituted civil government. The "powers that be are ordained of God." Government exists by divine arrangement.
​

• Government is in place for the purpose of protecting those who obey the law and punishing those who violate it. "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil." The governmental powers are "the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

​

Those who assert that one who calls the police to report criminal behavior has been guilty of violating a divine prohibition against personal vengeance have completely overturned Paul’s teaching. Calling government to punish criminal behavior is put in juxtaposition to exacting personal vengeance. Using government to protect the innocent and punish the violator is God’s means of controlling criminal behavior and to prevent personal revenge.

Do the principles taught in Romans 12:18-13:7 apply only to the world, to the Christian versus the worldling, and not to such matters between two Christians? Is there one law for the children of God and another law for the world with reference to vengeance? Is Paul saying that a Christian can take personal revenge against a non-Christian (by reporting his crime to the governmental authorities) but not take revenge on a Christian? Are two Christians excluded from the provisions and principles of "the powers that be" as they carry out the ministry of God in their realm? Was the Christian who reported the child molester "guilty" of sending the molester to jail? Did he violation 1 Corinthians 6? No, the punishment of the wicked is the realm of civil government. Is the Christian who reports stealing, whether done at the point of a gun, the click of a computer key, or with the pen to write unauthorized checks to himself, guilty of sending the thief to jail? No, again. His own crime is what sends him to jail and it is the realm of the "powers that be" to punish such criminal behavior.

Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well (1 Pet. 2:13-14).

​

Peter also instructs that governmental authorities are put in place "for the punishment of evildoers." He goes on to say, "If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters" (1 Pet. 4:14-15). The point is that, if someone suffers as a murderer, thief, or evildoer, he is suffering deservedly. There is no virtue in suffering the punishment that God has put in place for the punishment of criminal behavior.


Source:
The Christian and Civil Government — Truth Magazine Online

 

[elf3]

Yeah I know, but I was answering before I saw that since it was not in the same post.

Man put the English version of the bible we have together.
God inspired man to write the scriptures which were written in Greek and Hebrew.
Man has always interfered with God's way which is why we have so many different versions of the bible now, and if you compare them you will find that some have changed scripture to fit their view points, or make things what is not acceptable being now acceptable.

There are other versions of the gospel written by other Apostles or scribes that wrote for them that were not included in the bible, and a lot more epistles also. They were not included because they felt they did not need any more books for they didn't add anything else more needed to the belief of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and how one who follows Him should walk.

If you believe the books in the bible are the only inspired writings you need to do more research, and you will find the other books and why they were not included. Not all of them was because of time frame in which they were written, or because they are not God inspired, or incomplete or mistranslated.

Even the KJV has been found to have mistranslations in it, none of it has to do with the main salvation through Jesus.

How long has the Bible consisted of 66 books? Don't you think in that amount of time if we had it wrong God would have had us change it?

 

[Deadtosin]

Jason, why in the world are you still talking about revenge?

 

[kennethcadwell]

STOP PRETENDING JESUS PREACHED A DIFFERENT GOSPEL

But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'" (Matthew 4: 4, NKJV, c.f. Luke 4:4)
"So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD." (Deuteronomy 8:3)


"But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." (Matthew 9:13, cf. Matthew 12:7)
For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. (Hosea

He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? "For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' (Matthew 15:3, 4; cf. Mark 7:10)

"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you." (Exodus 20:12, cf Exodus 21:

"Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'" (Matthew 15:7-9, cf. Mark 7:6, 7)
Therefore the LORD said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men…" (Isaiah 29:13)


And Jesus said to them, "Yes. Have you never read, 'Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants You have perfected praise?'" (Matthew 21: 16b)
Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants You have ordained strength, because of Your enemies, that You may silence the enemy and the avenger." (Psalm 8:2)



Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes?'" (Matthew 21:42, cf. Mark 12:10, 11, Luke 20:17)
The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD's doing; it is marvelous in our eyes. (Psalm 118:22, 23)





"But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matthew 22:31-32, cf. Mark 12:26, 27, Luke 20:37-38)
Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. (Exodus 3:6)


"How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool?'" (Matthew 22:43, 44, cf. Mark 12:36, Luke 20:42, 43)
The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool." (Psalm 110:1)


"Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Matthew 24:15, 16)
"Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate." (Daniel 9:27, cf. Daniel 11:31, 12:11)


Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I will strike the Shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'" (Matthew 26:31, cf. Mark 14:27)
"Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, against the Man who is My Companion," says the LORD of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered; then I will turn My hand against the little ones." (Zechariah 13:7)


"For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end." (Luke 22:37)
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors. (Isaiah 53:12

JESUS FULFILLED THE SACRIFICE. JESUS EXPOUNDED ON THE LAWS, WE HAVE GONE FROM KINDERGARTEN TO 1ST GRADE. NOBODY CAN REMOVE THE OLD TESTAMENT FROM JESUS CHRIST!

Jesus preached and taught against eye for an eye.
You must realize that things do change from one covenant to another.

Like I mentioned before Jesus became our sacrifice, so we no longer need to sacrifice animals.

Jesus took our punishment for us, so we no longer called to hand out punishments like stoning for some one sinning.
We are instead to show love and forgiveness.

Jesus said love your enemies, and do good to them.

The moral values that the law taught of right and wrong still apply.
We should no longer be under a tutor for we should know right from wrong now, but some today still do what the Jews did in the old covenant ( OT ). Did things for personal gain, self edification/gratitude, and out of obligation. Some still do this instead of doing things out of love for our Lord.

Paul makes it clear that the gospel is apart from the traditions, and customs that came with the mosaic laws.

Lord Jesus was sent to give us a way to be reconciled to God, by washing us clean of our sins and teaching us how to walk in a better way. His teachings are of belief, repentance, baptism, confession, communion, love for all, helping those who are in need.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason, why in the world are you still talking about revenge?

It's the whole concept behind turning the other cheek if somebody strikes you. Do you want to get revenge if somebody hits you and strike them back? But Jesus refutes this thinking because He says we are to love our enemies and to do good to those who despitefully use us. We are not to render evil for evil. We are to pray for our enemies. We are not to kill them.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Because he is not discerning enough yet to distinguish between Biblical self-defense and personal revenge?

Luke 11:21 - When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe;

Luke 22:36 - He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

Psalm 144:1 - Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle;

Nehemiah 4:17-18 - Who were building on the wall. Those who carried burdens were loaded in such a way that each labored on the work with one hand and held his weapon with the other. And each of the builders had his sword strapped at his side while he built. The man who sounded the trumpet was beside me.

Romans 13:4 - For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

Numbers 31:3 - So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vengeance on Midian.

Etc... etc... etc...

Jason, why in the world are you still talking about revenge?

 

[MidniteWelder]

Loving your enemies is also pointing out their sin to them
Not enabling them to continue in sin.

When Jesus said turn the other cheek, that was for something directed toward yourself in regards to living in peace with one another.....IF THAT BE POSSIBLE.

Your right to life is a right God has given to you...whether it is valuable enough for you to defend is up to you.
Some see that it is good to continue to be a Godly influence to a darkened world.
If a possessed person attacks a Christian, who does not see that is satan trying to take out Gods people?
If Gods people lie down every time a satan influenced person is prompted to act, we would have all been extinguished long ago.
Just as God uses people so does our enemy.

One may be directed to turn the other cheek
This is different than turning ones head and looking the other way to allow an attack or perpetrator execute physical harm on the weak and innocent.

Dont expect the police to protect you with lethal force if you aren't willing to protect yourself first.
This would be asking someone else to do the dirty work for you and face judgement instead of you.
You have the authority to do the very same...including protecting another human.
We are also called not to be cowardly.

 

[kennethcadwell]

How long has the Bible consisted of 66 books? Don't you think in that amount of time if we had it wrong God would have had us change it?

God lets us do things on our own, so that we can learn to come to Him freely searching out the truth of His word.
We are not robots, or forced to follow Him. He makes it clear in scripture that He gave us over to our free based minds.

He wants us to come to love Him freely, and through that love we are to seek out and search and test all things.
He says it Himself, He even says that of scripture because He knew man would rewrite their own versions to fit new age thinking instead of staying true to God.

God did allow man to find the Dead Sea Scrolls, and do the research and study being done has found the KJV to be the closest to the original texts at 95% the last time I checked into the research being done. Like I said though the mistranslations that have been found do not affect the salvation message.

Plus the other thing is we already have Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Do we really need more writings of the gospel message besides those 4 when the others do not add any more information. Plus just like the epistles as well, there are more from Peter, James, and others that were not put into the canon that we now have as our bible because those other epistles also did not add any more info besides what was mentioned in the others, so why have them when they don't have any additional information. This is how they felt when they put the canon together, just put enough in that explains all points and shows the apostles taught the same as what Jesus taught them.

 

[elf3]

You know what I am now gonna jump on the high horse and take us back to the old days. Not because I am better than anyone or know more than anyone or that I have more faith than anyone. But because I am tired of false teaching. Yeah cut me down all you want but only after you read this.

I am tired of people changing God's Word to their needs.

Who killed Goliath, Jesus turned water into grape juice, people adding to God's Word and people making scripture say what they want.

David killed Goliath, Jesus turned water into wine, gospel of Mary and Thomas are not God breathed and the Bible is pretty much self explanitory.

You got a problem with all that take it up with God not me.

You got a problem with me well good for you. I have had more insults toward me my whole life than most of you so yeah call me what you want. You think I don't have faith in God well go on thinking that cause that's not my problem it's yours.

God is Sovereign in all things and I mean all things. God has an elect, we are saved by grace through faith ect ect

Yeah believe in God's Sovereignty until it doesn't fit your needs.

If we want what's fair then we would all be in hell. Because of God's grace and Mercy we can have life with Him. You don't like it then talk to God.

This isn't a democracy it's a monarchy and God rules all!

Oh and by the way I will just keep reposting this here so sorry you gotta jump me on another forum.

 

[MidniteWelder]

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him

What Jesus did not say was to throw his sword away.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Because he is not discerning enough yet to distinguish between Biblical self-defense and personal revenge?

Luke 11:21 - When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe;

Luke 22:36 - He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

Psalm 144:1 - Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle;

Nehemiah 4:17-18 - Who were building on the wall. Those who carried burdens were loaded in such a way that each labored on the work with one hand and held his weapon with the other. And each of the builders had his sword strapped at his side while he built. The man who sounded the trumpet was beside me.

Romans 13:4 - For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

Numbers 31:3 - So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vengeance on Midian.

Etc... etc... etc...

You need to look at Luke 11:21 again, and read verse 22 and 23 that follows.
This shows a man who is putting his own trust in guarding his possessions then putting his trust in Jesus.

I believe in self defense, but one can go over board and misuse of force in that self defense.
If you can avoid killing a person than that is how you are to go, but if you have no choice then that is what needs to be done.

The rest of the verses you gave is good, but Luke 11 was not for this point.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Loving your enemies is also pointing out their sin to them
Not enabling them to continue in sin.

When Jesus said turn the other cheek, that was for something directed toward yourself in regards to living in peace with one another.....IF THAT BE POSSIBLE.

Your right to life is a right God has given to you...whether it is valuable enough for you to defend is up to you.
Some see that it is good to continue to be a Godly influence to a darkened world.
If a possessed person attacks a Christian, who does not see that is satan trying to take out Gods people?
If Gods people lie down every time a satan influenced person is prompted to act, we would have all been extinguished long ago.
Just as God uses people so does our enemy.

One may be directed to turn the other cheek
This is different than turning ones head and looking the other way to allow an attack or perpetrator execute physical harm on the weak and innocent.

Dont expect the police to protect you with lethal force if you aren't willing to protect yourself first.
This would be asking someone else to do the dirty work for you and face judgement instead of you.
You have the authority to do the very same...including protecting another human.
We are also called not to be cowardly.

Jesus response of turn the other cheek, was to the question of we have heard in the past eye for an eye.
He says no to this, we are no longer to do in return what they did to us.

Do you think that when some one stands trial in a court that our Lord has more respect for the family that forgives the murderer who killed their family member, or the family that wants nothing but him put to death ?

 

[Deadtosin]

Jesus preached and taught against eye for an eye.
You must realize that things do change from one covenant to another.

Like I mentioned before Jesus became our sacrifice, so we no longer need to sacrifice animals.

Jesus took our punishment for us, so we no longer called to hand out punishments like stoning for some one sinning.
We are instead to show love and forgiveness.

Jesus said love your enemies, and do good to them.

The moral values that the law taught of right and wrong still apply.
We should no longer be under a tutor for we should know right from wrong now, but some today still do what the Jews did in the old covenant ( OT ). Did things for personal gain, self edification/gratitude, and out of obligation. Some still do this instead of doing things out of love for our Lord.

Paul makes it clear that the gospel is apart from the traditions, and customs that came with the mosaic laws.

Lord Jesus was sent to give us a way to be reconciled to God, by washing us clean of our sins and teaching us how to walk in a better way. His teachings are of belief, repentance, baptism, confession, communion, love for all, helping those who are in need.

Loving our enemy is not a new teaching.

Exo 23:4,5 If thou meet thine enemy’s ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again. If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.
Pro 25:21 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
Pro 24:17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
Pro 29:10 The bloodthirsty hate the upright: but the just seek his soul.

Eye for an eye. The law was teaching what the law still does today. When someone commits a crime they are punished. Jesus was teaching us beyond that. However you can find it in Leviticus 19

"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD."


You talk about no more need for sacrifice. That's not true, the sacrifice wasn't abolished. Jesus BECAME the sacrifice. That was also preached in the OT

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Actually we can kill them where it is desirable to do so. For example, killing a murderer you catch in the act of murdering an innocent person or persons is about the most loving thing you can do for the intended victim(s). Standing aside and letting the innocent victims be murdered or jumping in and making sure you're the first victim to be murdered with them following afterwards constitutes gross negligence which is sinful and accomplishes nothing worthwhile. Stopping the murderer is the moral and correct thing to do even if it means killing the perpetrator in the process. Both private citizens and law enforcement personnel are given authority by both government and scripture to take the life of a perpetuator to prevent them from murdering innocent people. Furthermore, the government is within its legal and scriptural right to execute murderers (e.g. capital punishment). Not sure where you grew up, but it obviously wasn't where I did. Where I grew up, the street gangs will happily murder and rob you and move right onto the next victim (after partying to celebrate of course). They get "stripes" for murdering and the more "stripes" they get the farther they progress in the street gang and ultimately their prison gang as a "big homie." It takes brave private citizens and law enforcement working together to keep them under control in major urban areas like Los Angeles, Chicago, and NYC. Climb down out of your ivory tower and I'll give you the ghetto tour if you come to LA and show you what I'm talking about. I think it will sink in afterwards. There is no civilization nor society unless "can't stop won't stop" murdering gangs and predatory criminals are reigned in and that doesn't happen by "turning the other cheek" which is a completely different lesson applicable to interpersonal relationships where life, actual bodily harm, and liberty are not at risk. It happens by applying real accountability through the rule of law and legitimate use of force. Welcome to the real world.

It's the whole concept behind turning the other cheek if somebody strikes you. Do you want to get revenge if somebody hits you and strike them back? But Jesus refutes this thinking because He says we are to love our enemies and to do good to those who despitefully use us. We are not to render evil for evil. We are to pray for our enemies. We are not to kill them.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Loving our enemy is not a new teaching.

Exo 23:4,5 If thou meet thine enemy’s ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again. If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.
Pro 25:21 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
Pro 24:17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
Pro 29:10 The bloodthirsty hate the upright: but the just seek his soul.

Eye for an eye. The law was teaching what the law still does today. When someone commits a crime they are punished. Jesus was teaching us beyond that. However you can find it in Leviticus 19

"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD."


You talk about no more need for sacrifice. That's not true, the sacrifice wasn't abolished. Jesus BECAME the sacrifice. That was also preached in the OT

Yes the law teaches discipline, but the eye for an eye was taken in the OT to initiate the same type of punishment for the type of crime. Example: One commits murder, he is to be put to death. The punishment for adultery was stoning to death, and so on an so on. Jesus now says no to all this part of the mosaic law, he still believes in punishment yes but now death and life decisions are to be left to Him. Vengeance is Mine says the Lord, not ours. Leave the life and death decisions to Him.

We are to imprison, minister to for correction, bring them to repentance if possible, but not put to death.
Where is love and forgiveness in wishing to see one put to death, there isn't.

 

[Jason0047]

Because he is not discerning enough yet to distinguish between Biblical self-defense and personal revenge?

Luke 11:21 - When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe;

Luke 22:36 - He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

Psalm 144:1 - Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle;

Nehemiah 4:17-18 - Who were building on the wall. Those who carried burdens were loaded in such a way that each labored on the work with one hand and held his weapon with the other. And each of the builders had his sword strapped at his side while he built. The man who sounded the trumpet was beside me.

Romans 13:4 - For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

Numbers 31:3 - So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vengeance on Midian.

Etc... etc... etc...

I understand the difference between murder, revenge, and self defense. I realize that the Law of Moses did not consider self defense as murder (Exodus 22:2). But we are not under the Law of Moses anymore. There is no priesthood or Temple for you to offer sacrifices to anymore. The Temple veil has been torn. We are not to put new wine into old wine skins. The New Testament tells us in Romans 12:21 to not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

As for the passsages you brought up: Well, the New Testament passages you quoted are taken out of context to fit a meaning that is not what you say it means. The "strong man" in Luke 11:21 is in reference to Satan and or his minions. The "stronger one" who overcomes him is Jesus. This passage is not talking about the justification of physical war or self defense but it is talking about Jesus' power to cast out Satan. Romans 13:4 is not in reference to the believer but it is in reference to the unbelieving nations and authorities that can be God's ministering hand of justice and order. This is not talking about believers being ministers of justice. Nowhere does it say that. As for Luke 22:36: I will address that in my next post.