Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination

[Definition_Christ]

Dear me, "For if I do this willingly", OK notice the 'if', remember that, then 'I have a reward', you know that there are rewards and punishments, OK, so your saved, but do you want to be last in the kingdom? Paul is speaking as a saved man, he is been sent on a mission by Christ, the risen Christ saved Paul, Paul didn't do anything before then except sin, Christ saved Him, all God's work. So Paul says, and I mean go back; "For though I prech the Gospel, I have nothing to glory of; for necessity is laid upon me, yea woe is me,if I do not preach the gospel!" And then what is the reward? Well it's not Paul's salvation, he already saved, with the necessity laid upon him by God, so he says "I have been entrusted", been given the responsibilty, stewardship has been given to him, by whom? by God, who elects, sanctifies, saves, God does all that with foreknowledge...



Nothing to do with salvation, all of Israel was saved, God cannot cast off His own seed, His people, so who are you going to choose knowing that, who will you serve, there are rewards and punishments, does not mean your not saved, salvation is predestinated by God, its decided from before you are born, your either His seed, and His sheep or your not.

To your first response, if you don't understand what the word "willingly" means you need a dictionary not a calvinist doctrine. Anyone who believes is the elect, if they stop believing (guess what?) they aren't the elect anymore.

Serving the Lord has EVERYTHING to do with salvation. You are ignoring the fact we "choose" to serve the Lord. Yes all of Israel will be saved AFTER the fullness of the gentiles come in. You can't serve two masters you either love one and hate the other. No way is your response biblical at all and holds no water. You think you can serve Jesus and serve idols at the same time? Yeah right you got a big surprise on judgment day.


Jesus died for the whole world, not just the "predestined elect".

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 4:22
Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”


1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

Romans 10:13
For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

WHOSOEVER... Calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved... Not "whowaspredestined"

 

[machew]

Salvation was the result of both free-will and predestination, because the Bible says so. Some who are not able to wrap their mind around this argue that you can't have both? Why? Because you can't comprehend this? Does God need to limit Himself to stay within your comprehension level? If you haven't experienced a truth in the Bible, does that mean it isn't true, because you have never experienced it or can't understand it? Do you need to create a theology to protect your congregation against Biblical truths because it makes people uncomfortable? Why is so much so much of the Bible taken with a grain of salt until it is understood? Since when is the Bible subjective?

 

[Definition_Christ]

John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

John 7:17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

So we MUST be WILLING to come to Jesus. Which is why Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:17 "For I do this WILLINGLY".

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

To your first response, if you don't understand what the word "willingly" means you need a dictionary not a calvinist doctrine. Anyone who believes is the elect, if they stop believing (guess what?) they aren't the elect anymore.

A saved person cannot lose their salvation.

Serving the Lord has EVERYTHING to do with salvation. You are ignoring the fact we "choose" to serve the Lord. Yes all of Israel will be saved AFTER the fullness of the gentiles come in. You can't serve two masters you either love one and hate the other. No way is your response biblical at all and holds no water. You think you can serve Jesus and serve idols at the same time? Yeah right you got a big surprise on judgment day.

Israel are the ethnos and were saved Hebrews 8:8-12. Israel are a people not a geographical state, Judaism is a religion anyone can become a Jew,just go and see a Rabbi and convert. And it's "times of the nations be fullfilled", "Nations" is sometimes mistranslated in English as gentiles, that's why you must learn the Greek.

Maybe you don't understand salvation, yopu don't serve unless you are saved by Jesus Christ, and anyone who comes to Christ in no way gets thrown out, you will serve if you are saved, as Paul says willingly or unwillingly it was necssesity that I was ordained with the stewardship of service. In whatever capacity it has been outlined, you will serve.

Jesus died for the whole world, not just the "predestined elect".

So you believe in universal salvation? God died for the entirety of what is His, that's His world.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

His world ( Kosmos) do you know what that word means? It comes from the base word Komizo - to tend i.e. take care of, properly to take care and protect. Kosmos means orderly arrangement, in the primary sense order, orderly, i.e. decorous.

His kosmos is orderly, and He protects and covers what belongs to Him.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

He loves what is His. His Kosmos.

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

Romans 10:13
For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

WHOSOEVER... Calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved... Not "whowaspredestined"

There are different Kosmos, different worlds, it does not mean the entire planet earth, Kosmos means order, their are different orders on earth, that is why Jesus can say "I am not of this world" that means "I am not of this order" just like I can say to you "I come from a different world to you", or "your world is not my world", the word just means a particular type of order.

 

[Definition_Christ]

A saved person cannot lose their salvation.

Wrong, a person can know they ARE saved therefore making them eternally secure. But you can lose your salvation if you deny Christ.

2 Timothy 2:2
11 This is a faithful saying:
For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Israel are the ethnos and were saved Hebrews 8:8-12. Israel are a people not a geographical state, Judaism is a religion anyone can become a Jew,just go and see a Rabbi and convert. And it's "times of the nations be fullfilled", "Nations" is sometimes mistranslated in English as gentiles, that's why you must learn the Greek.

Maybe you don't understand salvation, yopu don't serve unless you are saved by Jesus Christ, and anyone who comes to Christ in no way gets thrown out, you will serve if you are saved, as Paul says willingly or unwillingly it was necssesity that I was ordained with the stewardship of service. In whatever capacity it has been outlined, you will serve.

You can not be apart of Israel just because you convert to Judaism. Being Jewish is a race you can't change your race. I really have no ideas where you come up with these ideas. Man can either choose to serve God or serve the devil by doing evil. Paul is an apostle willingly just as he says. I believe him and I believe Jesus when he says we have to deny ourselves daily. I don't need some calvinist commentary to twist the words of the bible. You remind me of a cultist, you pick about 10-20 verses and just hold those verses to sustain your doctrine while ignoring all the verses against these false doctrines.

So you believe in universal salvation? God died for the entirety of what is His, that's His world.

No? Where do you get that idea from please elaborate a bit, I never understand the Calvinists unreasonable logic on this assumption. If anything you are preaching universalism by saying that there is such a thing as irresistible grace.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men

So by your doctrines, if you truly believe them. You are a universalists.

His world ( Kosmos) do you know what that word means? It comes from the base word Komizo - to tend i.e. take care of, properly to take care and protect. Kosmos means orderly arrangement, in the primary sense order, orderly, i.e. decorous.

His kosmos is orderly, and He protects and covers what belongs to Him.
There are different Kosmos, different worlds, it does not mean the entire planet earth, Kosmos means order, their are different orders on earth, that is why Jesus can say "I am not of this world" that means "I am not of this order" just like I can say to you "I come from a different world to you", or "your world is not my world", the word just means a particular type of order.

There is no difference between Kosmos (cosmos) and the world.I highly doubt you speak Greek or even understand any koine Greek without using Strong's you are in no position to be trying to translate the bible and saying the scholars shouldn't have said "world". You are very deceitful and a hateful person to believe that God would predestine someone to hell without giving them the chance to know Him and you call that just. You don't even understand what you are saved from. First of all you believe there was never a chance of you going to hell because you are this special "elect", so you don't believe you are saved from hell therefore; you are saying Jesus saved you from what?

 

[Definition_Christ]

Try to apply your "all men means the elect" to Romans 5:18.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

 

[loveschild]

Think how God knew you before you were born. He has seen our whole life. He knows what we will do tommorrow. He knows the end of our lives. We don't know what we will be doing 10 years from now but he does. He has seen who is with him and he knows who will not except him. We think in human terms. God is God and sees all before it happens to us in our life. What we will do 5 days from today isn't a unknown to God.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Exactly.. God knows but He doesn't predestine or cause. That was Job's problem.. I just tell calvinist to read the book of Job, God does not cause bad things to happen like they so falsely claim. God allows things, God knows all things. But God does not predestine people to a sinful nature. He did not create an imperfect creation. Man ruined that creation. Calvinist are claiming God created sin and evil, once again read the book of Job. I agree God knows who will go to heaven and who will reject Him and go to hell. He knows.. But He doesn't choose their paths.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

The Greek word for earth is gea (various spellings for the eta). The word kosmos means the community of the earth, man, and (in the pagan view) the gods. John's use of the word is to direct God's love not just toward his creation, but toward man.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.

I think you can draw plenty of conclusions from this.
- People are destroyed for lack of knowledge. (not because they were predestined to be destroyed)
- People can reject God's knowledge and grace therefore God will reject us.

 

[Definition_Christ]

The Greek word for earth is gea (various spellings for the eta). The word kosmos means the community of the earth, man, and (in the pagan view) the gods. John's use of the word is to direct God's love not just toward his creation, but toward man.

Amen that is the truth.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Wrong, a person can know they ARE saved therefore making them eternally secure. But you can lose your salvation if you deny Christ.

2 Timothy 2:2
11 This is a faithful saying:
For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

A Christian does not deny Christ, only an anti-christ denies Christ, did Peter lose his salvation? No that is impossible. Why? because he could not be saved until after Christ died, once Christ died and then risen, Peter cannot deny, as it says 'He remains faithful' once elected by Christ and saved by His blood, He remains faithful.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Yes this agrees perfectly with what I am saying. It is impossible, this is a warning to false witness, many will say in that day Lord, Lord, does not mean they are saved, that's just false confession as Paul says to the Jews - "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law, ye are fallen from grace, for we through the spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith." and "For the earth drinketh", bringeth forth herbs meet for Him, by whom it is dressed, recieveth blessing from God, But that which beareth thorns, is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

You can not be apart of Israel just because you convert to Judaism.

I think your confused, you have the House of Israel and the House of Judah, Judaism is a religion based on the Talmud, anybody can become a Jew by conversion.

Being Jewish is a race you can't change your race.

The word "Jew" is about 200 years old, Judaism was the state religion of Judea, in the Bible the word for Judean in the form of a geographical area is in modern english Bible translated "Jew", NT teaching is that all true Judeans belonging to the tribe of Judah became Christian, thats how you tell a true Judean is by circumcision of the heart, which leaves the "Jews" or Judeans of today as the fullfillment of Revelation 2:9 "Those who call themselves Jews, but do lie and are the Synagogue of Satan.", And Judaism is just anybody that calls themselves a "Jew" by converting to Judaism and anybody can do that by going and visiting the local Rabbai and converting.

I really have no ideas where you come up with these ideas. Man can either choose to serve God or serve the devil by doing evil. Paul is an apostle willingly just as he says. I believe him and I believe Jesus when he says we have to deny ourselves daily. I don't need some calvinist commentary to twist the words of the bible. You remind me of a cultist, you pick about 10-20 verses and just hold those verses to sustain your doctrine while ignoring all the verses against these false doctrines.

"Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain." John 15:16.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men

So by your doctrines, if you truly believe them. You are a universalists.

All those that are His, "man' is a title, not everyone gets that title, He may just call those that are not His "natural brutes" or "beasts", 'man' is a title.

There is no difference between Kosmos (cosmos) and the world.I highly doubt you speak Greek or even understand any koine Greek without using Strong's you are in no position to be trying to translate the bible and saying the scholars shouldn't have said "world".

Kosmos means 'order', just like I explained to you, it can be translated 'world', that does not mean the entire Earth, there are different orders, on earth. It can mean specifically the order of believers only, exclusive.

You are very deceitful and a hateful person to believe that God would predestine someone to hell without giving them the chance to know Him and you call that just.

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations and reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement to be punished." Peter 2:9

You don't even understand what you are saved from. First of all you believe there was never a chance of you going to hell because you are this special "elect", so you don't believe you are saved from hell therefore; you are saying Jesus saved you from what?

Jesus Christ is the ressurection, "Hell" is 'sheol' - grave. "For since by man came death, by man came also the ressurection of the dead, For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

 

[Definition_Christ]

A Christian does not deny Christ, only an anti-christ denies Christ, did Peter lose his salvation? No that is impossible. Why? because he could not be saved until after Christ died, once Christ died and then risen, Peter cannot deny, as it says 'He remains faithful' once elected by Christ and saved by His blood, He remains faithful.

Oh really then why does Paul say "if WE deny Christ, He will deny us".. Was Paul writing to unbelievers?

"Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain." John 15:16.

Where is the mention of salvation here? I don't see Jesus mentioning anything about salvation. Obviously Jesus chose His disciples? What is your point?

All those that are His, "man' is a title, not everyone gets that title, He may just call those that are not His "natural brutes" or "beasts", 'man' is a title.

You are adding to Scripture by saying or insinuating what the definition of the word is when you clearly do not know. You have to look at the word in the context, see if it lines up with your doctrine then choose the meaning of the word.

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations and reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement to be punished." Peter 2:9

Let's continue reading a chapter later and a few verses over..

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

What is your excuse .. I mean commentary on this verse? Let me guess the Lord really IS willing some whom He predestined to perish but He is not willing those who are His to perish even though there is absolutely no chance for them to perish since they are predestined?

You my friend need to learn about grace and what it truly is.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Ethnos does not refer to Israel. Check out Romans 9:24, Galatians 1:14, Acts 4:27, Acts 14:2 & 5, etc. Occassionally it used in conjunction and in the singular with Israel (i.e. the nation of Israel) but that is the exception. You are right, you should learn more Greek. As a start I would suggest Machen's "New Testament Greek for Beginners".

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Translating only from word origin is not an accurate way of translating. Kosmos is used more than 150 times in the New Testament. Only a handful of times can it be seen in any positive way, and that only by God's grace. We are urged to be in the world, but not of it. The scripture that says "For God so loved the world" is a superlative statement of grace.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Ethnos does not refer to Israel. Check out Romans 9:24, Galatians 1:14, Acts 4:27, Acts 14:2 & 5, etc. Occassionally it used in conjunction and in the singular with Israel (i.e. the nation of Israel) but that is the exception. You are right, you should learn more Greek. As a start I would suggest Machen's "New Testament Greek for Beginners".

Etymological Dictionary of the English Language. Walter Skeat.- "GENTILE. see Genteel. GENTEEL gentilis, belonging to the same tribe, a gentile (afterwards applied to mean weel-bred) stem of Gens, a clan, a tribe, allied to genus.

Greek Lexicon Liddel & Scott ethnos - "number of people living together, company, body of men; particular tribe; a nation, a people; a caste, a tribe, a guild; a relation. (p. 480)

Thayer's Greek Lexicon - ethnos "a multitude associated or living together, a company, a troop, or swarm, & a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus , & a race or nation. (Thayer, p. 168)

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Translating only from word origin is not an accurate way of translating. Kosmos is used more than 150 times in the New Testament. Only a handful of times can it be seen in any positive way, and that only by God's grace. We are urged to be in the world, but not of it. The scripture that says "For God so loved the world" is a superlative statement of grace.

kosmos can be either positive or negative, its an 'arrangement', an 'order' a 'government', it's like saying the 'the god of this world', it refers to a structure of order - kosmos.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

You will notice that the first meaning of ethnos in Thayer has no Biblical reference, as the Greeks did not differenciate themselves in the way that Jews did. Thayer lists about 15 times that is refers to Israel. Note: 4. foreign nations not worshipping God. Nice try though. I'd give thought to that Greek grammer. Translating word without understanding grammer is like reading traffic signs without understanding the rules of the road.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Regarding kosmos, I would suggest Wigram's "The Englishman's Greek Concordance of the New Testament" for accurate word study.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

You will notice that the first meaning of ethnos in Thayer has no Biblical reference, as the Greeks did not differenciate themselves in the way that Jews did. Thayer lists about 15 times that is refers to Israel. Note: 4. foreign nations not worshipping God. Nice try though. I'd give thought to that Greek grammer. Translating word without understanding grammer is like reading traffic signs without understanding the rules of the road.

"Individuals of the same nature or genus, & a race or nation"

Do you know what 'genus' means?, do you know where we get 'gentile' from, GENS, - beget, produce, genteel, gentle-man, well bred, of high noble birth beloning to the same genus, class, tribe, clan.

The Universal Dicationary of the English Language, 1897, Vol II, p2286, says: "gen-tile, gen-til, gen-tyl gentil from Latin gentilis = one belonging to the same class, a gentile, from gens (genit. gentis) = a clan, of noble or gentle birth; of high rank; noble, denoting the clan, race, or country, of one clan the same family, person of noble or gentile birth; one of high rank.