Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Okay let me see if this makes sense.

1 John 2:2
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

You want it to say....

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for the elect sins, and not only for the elect but also for the elect.

"And He Himself is not just the atonement for you and my sins, but also for all that is order (kosmos) of God"

I would put it that way, that essentially what John is saying.

We were not once the children of the devil?

No.

Ephesians 5
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

The Christians of Ephesus, were dead in sin, who made them alive? 5:14 "Wherefore He saith: Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee life."

We don't give ourselves life! Did I create myself? No...did you? Did you create yourself, and then predestine yourself to salvation? Did you awake yourself and give yourself life and light?

"darkness" = blindness, those that are blind recieve their sight, truth and light! Who does this - Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and the Father, it's not of yourself, it's a gift by the grace of God, it's entirely an act of God, salvation is an act of God!

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Cup, You just added "of God" to I John 2:2. You just added words to scripture in order to support your position. Kittel, Machen, Dana, Mantley, Robertson would all be horrified. Give it up...

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Cup, You just added "of God" to I John 2:2. You just added words to scripture in order to support your position. Kittel, Machen, Dana, Mantley, Robertson would all be horrified. Give it up...

Dear me, as you can read we both gave our interpretations, based on the same verse, I did not say that is the actual words, I said that that is in essence what John is saying 'I would put it that way', you can make up your own mind what you think.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

How can you say that John "essentially" said "of God" when John did not. The addition of those two words would turn that verse on its head. Sorry, but your explanation is lame.

 

[Definition_Christ]

"And He Himself is not just the atonement for you and my sins, but also for all that is order (kosmos) of God"

I would put it that way, that essentially what John is saying.




No.



The Christians of Ephesus, were dead in sin, who made them alive? 5:14 "Wherefore He saith: Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee life."

We don't give ourselves life! Did I create myself? No...did you? Did you create yourself, and then predestine yourself to salvation? Did you awake yourself and give yourself life and light?

"darkness" = blindness, those that are blind recieve their sight, truth and light! Who does this - Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and the Father, it's not of yourself, it's a gift by the grace of God, it's entirely an act of God, salvation is an act of God!

Total misunderstanding of 1 John 2:2.. Sorry.. If you can't comprehend a simple verse like that, I can easily see where you are misled into false doctrines.

I don't think you understand the point. Of course I believe Yeshua died for the elect. Yeah OF COURSE.. But where it the Scripture that says He didn't die for those who are in hell/going there? Where it the Scripture that says He ONLY died for the elect? There is not.. No Scripture exists that says Yeshua onlydied for the elect.

Anyway.. I could go on and on with this. It's really pointless though since you have absolutely no Scriptures to back up the Lord died only for the elect.

Let's just give this another go...

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit

Very very simple question..

Who is the unjust?

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

How can you say that John "essentially" said "of God" when John did not. The addition of those two words would turn that verse on its head. Sorry, but your explanation is lame.

Because John does say essentially that;

" Whosoever is born OF GOD doth not commit sin; for His seed (sperm) remianeth in him; and he cannot sin, because he is BORN OF GOD." John 3:9

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Let's just give this another go...

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit

Very very simple question..

Who is the unjust?

Jesus Christ is Just, the unsaved are unjust, until they are justified, by who? By Christ, unless you can justify yourself, can you justify yourself?

 

[Definition_Christ]

Jesus Christ is Just, the unsaved are unjust, until they are justified, by who? By Christ, unless you can justify yourself, can you justify yourself?

Ah, so Yeshua died for them? (I fully agree the Father has to enable us to have a relationship with the Lord)

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Ah, so Yeshua died for them? (I fully agree the Father has to enable us to have a relationship with the Lord)

The 'elect' who were unjust, yes, read the the opening lines of Peter's Epistle - parepidemos, and the 'elect according the foreknowledge of God' , Well they were unjust until justified by Christ unto obedience through sanctification.

 

[MahogonySnail]

(I fully agree the Father has to enable us to have a relationship with the Lord)

And you think the Father would not want to enable every person?

 

[Definition_Christ]

The 'elect' who were unjust, yes, read the the opening lines of Peter's Epistle - parepidemos, and the 'elect according the foreknowledge of God' , Well they were unjust until justified by Christ unto obedience through sanctification.

Ah but you have to change your answer now. So the unjust is NOT the unsaved?
We have to go about changing definitions to words again I suppose.

 

[Definition_Christ]

And you think the Father would not want to enable every person?

Yes God does enable every single person.

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.

How are they drawn ?

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

AMEN..

SO what happens to these people who do not want to .. "Deny themselves daily and pick up their Cross daily".. What happens to them! ? Good question..

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

(skipping a few verses)

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.


Let's sum it up.. God manifests things to people, God shows things to people to reveal Himself. They are without excuse. Although they KNEW God (You can't KNOW God if you are unable to know Him or not "enabled to know Him"... What happened? They did not glorify God as God... Nor were thankful (guessing they were not thankful He died for their sins).. So God GAVE THEM UP to uncleanness in the lust of their hearts!

So.. Yes .. God does draw all men to the Savior.. Do all accept or receive the gift? No...

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Ah but you have to change your answer now. So the unjust is NOT the unsaved?
We have to go about changing definitions to words again I suppose.

Peter is addressing those he is talking about, so at the start of the letter you address who you are talking to, Pater does not say "All antichrist non-believing children of the Devil that are unjust, this Epistle is written for you" No Peter does not say that, actually Peter is very specific, he addresses the elect whom have been estranged and scattered, or dispersed, just like in the previous Epistle James addresses the 'twelve tribes scattered abroad'. See at this stage, Judah was giving the Gospel to Israel, and they were spacifically in those areas to whom the remant of Judah went, after being given the mission from Christ. So your obviously having difficulty seeing the overall perspective and the various stages of the gospel and how it developed. See how Peter says

"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Pet. 1:5

That's all about God, that's your template for the Gospel, just how Pater says it, you have been reserved by the power of God unto salvation, God's faith in Christ has been transferred to you by Grace, as a gift, its bestowed upon you, why, because you belong to Him, even a confession of Christ is not your voice, what has already been written on your heart and put in your mind is represented by the Holy Spirit that is sent by Christ to you! He intercedes on your behalf, you don't even get credited with that, you get no credit, all credit goes to Jesus Christ, and Amen to that!

 

[Definition_Christ]

Alls I see is more twisting and twisting Scripture.. I really want you to see how much explaining you need to do just for a few simple simple verses. When we are all done talking hopefully you can see how silly you are being right now.

So Yeshua died for ALL SINS, the just for UNJUST .. EVERYONE He died for absolutely everyone. Is that taught other places in Scripture? Sure!

Romans 14
14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil;
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.
21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

So we can conclude from Romans 14:14-23.. Our "brother(s) WHON CHRIST DIED FOR"... Can BE DESTROYED.. The work of God CAN BE DESTROYED by man..So people can go to hell and Christ has still DIED FOR THEM..

 

[Definition_Christ]

If being "destroyed" doesn't do it for you.. How about perish?

1 Corinthians 8
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols?
11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

(I don't think I even need to say anything, just BELIEVE the Scripture bro.. Christ died for EVERYONE even those who are in hell/will go to hell)

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Alls I see is more twisting and twisting Scripture.. I really want you to see how much explaining you need to do just for a few simple simple verses. When we are all done talking hopefully you can see how silly you are being right now.

So Yeshua died for ALL SINS, the just for UNJUST .. EVERYONE He died for absolutely everyone. Is that taught other places in Scripture? Sure!

You may notice in the Epistles, for example Jude's address;

"I Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus, and called"

That means to whom the letter is addressed to - 'to whom that are sanctified'.....What about John ; "The elder unto the elect lady and her children whom I love in the truth." Peter - "to them that have obtained precious faith", 'to the scattered elect', James - 'to the twelve tribes scattered abroad', Romans - To all that be in Rome, beloved of God called to be saints' Corinthians 'Unto the Church of God'!!!! And so on, it's all addressed to believers called by God!

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

If being "destroyed" doesn't do it for you.. How about perish?

1 Corinthians 8
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols?
11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

(I don't think I even need to say anything, just BELIEVE the Scripture bro.. Christ died for EVERYONE even those who are in hell/will go to hell)

Your brother is a brother in Christ, is there another family of God?

 

[Definition_Christ]

You may notice in the Epistles, for example Jude's address;

"I Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus, and called"

That means to whom the letter is addressed to - 'to whom that are sanctified'.....What about John ; "The elder unto the elect lady and her children whom I love in the truth." Peter - "to them that have obtained precious faith", 'to the scattered elect', James - 'to the twelve tribes scattered abroad', Romans - To all that be in Rome, beloved of God called to be saints' Corinthians 'Unto the Church of God'!!!! And so on, it's all addressed to believers called by God!

That does not address the fact at ALL that Christ did NOT die for those who are in hell/going to hell. You actually can not pull up a verse to support that. Which I find quite humorous because you BELIEVE IT!! My question is WHY DO YOU BELIEVE SOMETHING YOU CAN NOT PROVE IN SCRIPTURE? PLEASE SHOW ME THE VERSE THAT SAYS CHRIST DIED FOR THE ELECT ONLY!!! SHOW THE VERSE THAT SAYS HE DID NOT DIE FOR THE WHOLE WORLD.

INSTEAD... We find those whom Christ DIED FOR can be destroyed AND PERISH.

Romans 14
14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil;
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.
21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

So we can conclude from Romans 14:14-23.. Our "brother(s) WHON CHRIST DIED FOR"... Can BE DESTROYED.. The work of God CAN BE DESTROYED by man..So people can go to hell and Christ has still DIED FOR THEM..

If being "destroyed" doesn't do it for you.. How about perish?

1 Corinthians 8
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols?
11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

(I don't think I even need to say anything, just BELIEVE the Scripture bro.. Christ died for EVERYONE even those who are in hell/will go to hell)

 

[Definition_Christ]

Your brother is a brother in Christ, is there another family of God?

Dude.. You are missing the point.. This is not only saying we can lose salvation but it's saying those whom Christ died for CAN PERISH.. It means those PERISHING IN HELL RIGHT NOW .. Christ DIED for them.

So thats 2 points of calvinism down the drain. The others will crumble soon enough once you open your eyes and believe the Scriptures.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Dude.. You are missing the point.. This is not only saying we can lose salvation but it's saying those whom Christ died for CAN PERISH.. It means those PERISHING IN HELL RIGHT NOW .. Christ DIED for them.

So thats 2 points of calvinism down the drain. The others will crumble soon enough once you open your eyes and believe the Scriptures.

So you can destroy someone can you? Well then you make the cross in vain, however Christ says that He loses none of those given to Him. You are saying that He looses some, or that who? You lose some, by doing what? 'thy meat' you can destroy someones soul in hell with your 'meat', interesting???

I think Paul means he should be fed with herbs rather than meat, because he may be weak in the faith, just growing, like you, for example, and then Paul would advise "Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth not; for God has recieved him. Obviously you don't have the power to destroy a brother when God has recieved him, it just means dont push away, loosen, is another way to put it, the word is appollumi (destroy) it is the opposite to building up, so don't tear down what God has been building up.