Why were the disciples against circumcision ?

[vic1980]

Physical circumcision was part of the Law given to them.

Genesis 17:10-11

This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

But Here God himself shows, He had a better plan all along in Christ.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Physical circumcision flesh , His talking about his very own Law. The Covenant of Circumcision.between me and you and thy seed after thee

God plans are perfect always everyone knows this

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

But why did the disciples of Jesus Christ refuse circumcision towards the Gentiles since it was clearly a covenant ?

Why did Paul fight so much against it ,there are many scripture beside these very few i have posted, But yet he circumcised Timothy ? I clearly understand circumcision of the heart by Christ Colossians 2:11

But why Did paul stated this in Galatians 5:3? Physical circumcision

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law

But yet in Galatians 5:6 His statement changes that it does not matter, but faith working through love.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

We as Christians understand Galatians 5:5 clearly

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

But why so much concern on physical circumcision ?

God Bless

 

[oldthennew]

Vic,

a very good question.

the Key scripture is Acts 15:1, and that is what is called the circumcision party,
they were teaching that in order to be saved you had to be circumcised and
keep certain points of the Law, but, as you pointed out, Paul circumcised Timothy
and in Romans 2:25, it says, 'for circumcision is indeed profitable, If you keep the Law....

GALATIANS 5:11. states,
And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution?
Then, the offence of the Cross has ceased.

the reason Paul is persecuted here is because he's still saying/preaching that circumcision is good,
but, you cannot establish your own righteousness through it, you cannot be saved by any works.
(Paul was definitely not anti-law, he was trying to make clear the purpose of the Law and the
purpose of grace.)
if we understand that this was the 'main-issue', dividing these two parties, then we can
get a much better grasp on understanding Paul's sometimes hard to understand words,
therefore Romans and Galatians become clearer.

Vic,
my wife and myself are still searching the scriptures
and learning the beauty and depths thereof.
thank you for putting us to work so early in the morning!

 

[john832]

Circumcision was always intended to be of the heart...

Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

The Apostles were not against circumcision at all...

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

What they taught against was relying on a physical act, not a change of heart. The problem the people had was they were carnal...

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The PEOPLE did not keep the Covenant...

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The problem was with the people, they did not have God's Spirit and could not keep the Covenant...

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

They did not know God's way, if you have an electronic Bible program (I use E-Sword and heartily recommend it) do a search for 'mercy' and read the verses that come up. (If you do not, use a Strong's concordance and look up 'mercy'. Here are a couple of selected verses...

Psa 11:7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

The Scribes and the Pharisees relied on their DNA and their traditions (Mark 7:1-13) instead of what Christ really wants...

Mat 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Luk 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
Luk 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

This is what God has always wanted...

Deu 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Deu 10:13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?

 

[just-me]

Physical circumcision was part of the Law given to them.

Genesis 17:10-11

This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

But Here God himself shows, He had a better plan all along in Christ.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Physical circumcision flesh , His talking about his very own Law. The Covenant of Circumcision.between me and you and thy seed after thee

God plans are perfect always everyone knows this

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

But why did the disciples of Jesus Christ refuse circumcision towards the Gentiles since it was clearly a covenant ?

Why did Paul fight so much against it ,there are many scripture beside these very few i have posted, But yet he circumcised Timothy ? I clearly understand circumcision of the heart by Christ Colossians 2:11

But why Did paul stated this in Galatians 5:3? Physical circumcision

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law

But yet in Galatians 5:6 His statement changes that it does not matter, but faith working through love.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

We as Christians understand Galatians 5:5 clearly

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

But why so much concern on physical circumcision ?

God Bless

Physical circumcision was way before Moses. It started with Abraham. The circumcising of the heart started with the law that God gave to Moses.

This is the first time that the word "circumcise" in mentioned in the KJV Bible. (Covenant with Abraham)

And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. (Genesis 17:11)

This is the second mentioning of the word "circumcise" in the KJV Bible. (The law)

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. (Deuteronomy 10:16)

This is the third time the word "circumcise" in mentioned in the KJV Bible. (The law)

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. (Deuteronomy 30:6)

You ask me "Just-me why did the disciples of Jesus Christ not uphold the law of Physical circumcision towards the Gentiles."

My answer is.......Because physical circumcision wasn't part of the law that God gave to Moses.

The next time the word "circumcise" is mentioned is in the book of Joshua after Moses was dead. (the covenant with Abraham's seed) After all the people were dead who came out of Egypt, after the 40 years in the wilderness, (except Joshua and Caleb) Joshua reinstated the sign of the covenant with Abraham and his seed. Here is the reason.

"And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt." (Joshua 5:4)

The physical circumcision was for Israel and not for gentiles. It never has been. The circumcision of the heart is for both Gentiles and Jews. That's why Paul said it didn't mean anything physically to the Gentiles. It is a sign of the covenant to the Jew first and also to the gentile of the heart not the physical. I really wish people who want to debunk the law could understand this. So many times circumcision has been brought up to try and make the law void. Seems as if the people that want to make the law void haven't even read what the law really says just like the Pharisees.

Next is the only time the word "circumcision" is in the Old Testament telling the story of Moses before He returned to Egypt with all the plagues that God would sent. This happened months before the law was given at Sinai.

So he let him go : then she said , A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision. (Exodus 4:26)

The next time the word is mentioned ins in the New Testament.

Jesus is mentioning circumcision to show how screwed up the Pharisaical viewpoint of the law really was just because Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath day. Do we mess it up that bad today? Could be.

John 7:15-23
15 And the Jews marvelled , saying , How knoweth this man letters, having never learned ?
16 Jesus answered them, and said , My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
20 The people answered and said , Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.
22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken ; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

See how the Pharisees did not know their history and messed up the truth of the law? This one commandment of circumcision in the law is that of the heart. There is no Sinai law for physical circumcision.

 

[just-me]

Leviticus 12:3 "And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised." Mentioned in the law once concerning the covenant with Abraham and his seed. (Genesis 17:11) The 2 other times that the law mentions it is referring to a heart condition.

see post #4

 

[KohenMatt]

Yep, what oldthenew and john said.

Spot on.

 

[vic1980]

Physical circumcision was way before Moses. It started with Abraham.

Agree it started with abraham

The circumcising of the heart started with the law that God gave to Moses.

But also in Lev 12 we are taught there is a phisical Purification after Childbirth , And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. (Deuteronomy 10:16)

I understand how the Lord circumcise there Heart, Please let us continue with the disscussion on the Physical covenant given to Abraham.

You ask me "Just-me why did the disciples of Jesus Christ not uphold the law of Physical circumcision towards the Gentiles."

My answer is.......Because physical circumcision wasn't part of the law that God gave to Moses.

But lev 12 say it was still establish , Purification after Childbirth

The physical circumcision was for Israel and not for gentiles. It never has been..

While reading the The Covenant of Circumcision in Genesis 17:12 those bought with money are they not consider Gentiles / not of there offspring?

I really wish people who want to debunk the law could understand this. So many times circumcision has been brought up to try and make the law void. Seems as if the people that want to make the law void haven't even read what the law really says just like the Pharisees...

This Thread was open to discuss ,Physical in the Flesh, The Covenant of Circumcision given From God to Abraham when was it annul, this thread has nothing to do with debunking law sir .

Jesus is mentioning circumcision to show how screwed up the Pharisaical viewpoint of the law really was just because Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath day. Do we mess it up that bad today? Could be....

Just-Me Jesus Himself was luke 2:21 it seems his family was obaying the Law correctly.

And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb

John 7:15-23
22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken ; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

See how the Pharisees did not know their history and messed up the truth of the law? This one commandment of circumcision in the law is that of the heart. There is no Sinai law for physical circumcision.

I don't see how Jesus was against physical circumcision in verse 23, seems he understood it was work that had to be done, As the priest in the temple work on a sabbath.

23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken ; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?.

Now back to what Paul stated in Galatians

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Why did Paul circumcision timothy , knowing this ?

The Covenant of Circumcision written in Genesis 17 when was it annul ?

God bless

 

[Nick01]

Just to clarify a point above, circumcision of the heart did not begin with Moses. It began with Abraham, as the circumcision to which physical circumcision pointed.

"Is this blessing only for the circumcised, then? Or is it also for the uncircumcised? For we say, Faith was credited to Abraham for righteousness. In what way then was it credited—while he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while he was circumcised, but uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while still uncircumcised. This was to make him the father of all who believe but are not circumcised, so that righteousness may be credited to them also. And he became the father of the circumcised, who are not only circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith our father Abraham had while he was still uncircumcised."