The Sword

[arwen-undomiel]

Denominations were split and made over the question of the sword. And whether or not a Christian should/ is allowed to wheld it. Some Christians are pacifists, some believe in Just War theory, some own guns and would use only in defense, some Christians would support going into battle, some Christians would go into war themselves. There is talk of deploying Canadian fighter jets along side U.S. Air strikes campaign. I wonder about the safety of our homeland if this takes place, why wouldn't there be retaliation towards us. Unlike a hefty pop of US citizens, most of us do not own guns. How to defend onceself on a personal level if it came to be? Is it a matter of WWJD? As a Canadian, I do feel a bit vulnerable to be honest.

Any thoughts on any of this?

Please understand that I ask these questions, because it is a theological concern that relates to the world we live in. I know that some people have a hard time reading and thinking about these things.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

The Sword of Truth trumps any vain man-made weapon of war.

 

[zeroturbulence]

First, let me say that when I saw the title of this thread I thought it would be about Game of Thrones, which I have so addictively watched these past 2 or 3 nights taking in nearly entire seasons in one depraved all-night GOT marathon session after another, each ending in headache, delirium and a gnawing hunger for more! But I digress...

I wouldn't worry as a citizen of the great maple leaf.. From what I've heard, canada has a large number of muslims already, plus... and this is a big plus.. canada is not as dramatic a target as the united states. Don't get me wrong, I love canada.. I really do, but if one wants to shake the world to its core through some epic act of terror it would make a bigger statement to go after washington d.c., los angeles or new york instead of toronto. And.. they know that the US is hated widely among the arab world so they would be making brownie points with their american-hating brethren if they attack us.. so we got that going for us too. :/

As far as canada helping against isis, I don't think isis really cares which countries are helping (unless they happen to have kidnapped one of its citizens who was unlucky enough to be captured). They're too busy trying to take over iraq.

So don't worry about what your gov't decides to do. They probably just want to get in on the action so their air force can get some experience and maybe some street cred?

 

[Lynx]

Er... the original question involved christians fighting with firearms. Nobody answered it yet.

Personally I don't have a gun, and probably won't have a gun. But it's not because I'm a christian, it's because I don't like guns. I'm not going to make a holiness standard of it and preach from the pulpit "If you have a gun you're going to hell!" My uncle Fred used to be a police officer. If one claims christians shouldn't carry a gun in defense, can a christian not be a cop?

Where do you draw the line? The best way is to refuse to take the pointer and draw it. You have to decide for you, but you cannot decide for anyone else because everyone else is different.

I have a friend down in Arkansas who is a cop and a preacher. In the town where they live they have had some trouble with people trying to um... disrupt their church, let's just put it that way. He has a gun when he goes to church, his pastor knows it, everyone else at church knows it, and two other people in that church customarily have guns. Would they shoot someone? They sure hope they don't have to.

 

[kenthomas27]

In the U.S. the 2nd amendment in our bill of rights grants rights to citizens to keep a bear arms. It was designed to be supportive of self defense, act as a resistance to oppressive government and to defend our land as part of a civic duty should any of these needs arise. It really had nothing to do with hunting or sport. The amendment goes on to provide a right to form and keep a well regulated militia for those same reasons. There's been a ton of challenges to these rights especially pertaining to the kinds of guns available, but the Supreme Ct more often than not rules in favor of more exotic weaponry to help keep and preserve the intent of the bill of rights. Let's face it - my little 12 ga shotgun is no match for a DSR sniper rifle or an MG3. Then again, an AK47 or HK416 assault rifle that can be available helps even the odds. This is why assault rifles and such are so fervently fought for (and in opposition to) in the U.S.

So to answer the question, yes - I own guns and I own them for those above reasons and I don't interpret anything biblical that suggests I might be doing wrong. I'd hate to be placed in a situation where those guns were used for any of those stated purposes, but I would.

 

[ServantStrike]

Denominations were split and made over the question of the sword. And whether or not a Christian should/ is allowed to wheld it. Some Christians are pacifists, some believe in Just War theory, some own guns and would use only in defense, some Christians would support going into battle, some Christians would go into war themselves. There is talk of deploying Canadian fighter jets along side U.S. Air strikes campaign. I wonder about the safety of our homeland if this takes place, why wouldn't there be retaliation towards us. Unlike a hefty pop of US citizens, most of us do not own guns. How to defend onceself on a personal level if it came to be? Is it a matter of WWJD? As a Canadian, I do feel a bit vulnerable to be honest.

Any thoughts on any of this?

Please understand that I ask these questions, because it is a theological concern that relates to the world we live in. I know that some people have a hard time reading and thinking about these things.

If you chose to fall into the camp of Christians that are okay with self defense, it actually is possible to own guns in Canada. There's some mandatory safety training, a licensing process, and a background check, but you're still lucky enough to be able to own them at all (lots of countries have done away with it much more aggressively).

Heck, if you want to own "scary" toys like an AR15 or a handgun or the like, you just have to take a second course and pay a bit more on your application.


All this being said, I do feel better being in the USA where the requirements are even less stringent thanks to our constitution. I will not ever say on an open forum whether I do or do not own guns (too controversial, and the people who are trying to take away that right are so relentless), but I will say I find comfort knowing that quite a few Americans do. So many of them forget the vast majority of our military isn't allowed to operate on our own soil (another constitutional protection), and that our police forces are often understaffed - with reponse times ranging from 10 minutes to an hour. It's good to know that some have taken it upon themselves to exercise their rights.

But within a few hours, this thread is going to be filled with people moaning about pacifism and dead children and how it's so horrible to defend yourself. Statistically, you're a lot more likely to die in a car accident than get shot (even in the USA). Really now, over half of our gun deaths are suicides, so I'm not sure they count, and then out of the remainder, over half of gun homicides are gang related - and I'm pretty sure if those guys didn't have guns they'd still manage to kill each other some other way (I hear rocks are pretty effective, as are baseball bats). Then there's the ever popular domestic violence argument - except guns stop it just as well as they enable it.


At the end of the day, in this fallen world, evil people do evil things, and it requires good people to stop them. Cain managed to kill Abel without even so much as a sword. The landscape and the tools involved may be different, but there have always been those who are intent on doing bodily harm to others. If one is a pacifist, then they had better be prepared to be quietly beaten to death, otherwise it's a bit hypocritical for them to criticize someone else's choice of tools for self defense (whether they be fists or bullets).

 

[Lynx]

ServantStrike I guess the only way to stop the violence... is to outlaw baseball bats and rocks. Sure it will do away with a national pasttime, and it'll be a lot of work confiscating and storing all those rocks, but isn't it better to be safe?

 

[ServantStrike]

ServantStrike I guess the only way to stop the violence... is to outlaw baseball bats and rocks. Sure it will do away with a national pasttime, and it'll be a lot of work confiscating and storing all those rocks, but isn't it better to be safe?

Exactly.

It's a sad fact but it seems to me that some people are intent on harming others. I truly wish they weren't, and I really can't understand why they would want to either, but the problem remains.

Countries that have tried to ban certain devices (guns, knives, Justin Bieber CD's) still have murders in them. The tools just change to something else, and the violence is still there. The only argument I've seen that's worth making is that some tools are not as effective as others, so the victim is more likely to survive. It's a weak one though, and it relies on denying the vast majority of law abiding citizens in an attempt to control a criminal element that is uncontrollable.

 

[Lynx]

*insert Bieber joke here... I just don't have the heart to right now*

 

[MissCris]

I think it's insanely important to have the skills, and the means, to protect yourself. Knowing self-defense, or carrying mace, or owning a weapon- this stuff can make a difference in a lot of situations.

Would any of that help against a terrorist attack?

...probably not.

However, it's still important to be able to protect yourself (assuming the terrorists don't win? I meant that to be an LOL but then I realized it's not funny). Do you have to own a gun to protect yourself? No. Is it wrong to own a gun for self-defense purposes? No.

"He who lives by the sword dies by the sword"...I don't think that pertains to people defending themselves, their homes, or their families. If you don't feel comfortable owning a firearm, don't. But if you feel a need for one, for the love of monkeys, learn to use it responsibly.

 

[Jullianna]

John 18 New International Version (NIV)

18 When he had finished praying, Jesus left with his disciples and crossed the Kidron Valley. On the other side there was a garden, and he and his disciples went into it.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Now Judas, who betrayed him, knew the place, because Jesus had often met there with his disciples. [SUP]3 [/SUP]So Judas came to the garden, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and the Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]“Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied.
“I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) [SUP]6 [/SUP]When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Again he asked them, “Who is it you want?”
“Jesus of Nazareth,” they said.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.”[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant’s name was Malchus.)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Jesus commanded Peter, “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?”
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then the detachment of soldiers with its commander and the Jewish officials arrested Jesus. They bound him [SUP]13 [/SUP]and brought him first to Annas, who was the father-in-law of Caiaphas, the high priest that year. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jewish leaders that it would be good if one man died for the people.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1. Peter HAD a sword. He walked with Jesus. Do you believe Jesus, Who knows the hearts and minds of men, did not know he had it?


2. Note that Jesus did not tell Peter to get rid of the sword or chastise him for having it. He simply told him to put it away, as it was not to be used at that particular time.



We sometimes forget that the God of the NT is the same God of the OT. What about the army Deborah led, Gideon's army, David vs Goliath, etc.?

There is a great truth in Isaiah 57 regarding death occurring in order to prevent a greater evil. When we talk about people who are bent on doing great harm and evil being destroyed, it seems as if those who go up against them are doing something evil as well. We call it self-defense/war (which, at the base of each, is really the same thing). But, when you think about it, evil breeds more evil, doesn't it? Always.. When we do everything we can to stamp out such evil, we are preventing greater evil.

And, yes, there is a cost. People die. Innocent people die in the wake of it. Not just soldiers. But we need to remember that if we do nothing, more and more innocent people will die. It is something that those who stand on the wall that protects us all from harm (both domestically and abroad) consider every.single.day. I may die today. One of my buddies may die today. But, if we do nothing, far more will die tomorrow upon the altar of evil.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

 

[Nautilus]

The Sword of Truth trumps any vain man-made weapon of war.

Sometimes I wonder if Jukers have these planned out and are just waiting for the perfect moment, because I must admit this was well timed.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Sometimes I wonder if Jukers have these planned out and are just waiting for the perfect moment, because I must admit this was well timed.

It is no juke brother, for a juke is a deception which is to say a lie. I tell you the truth. The Sword of Truth trumps any man made weapon. The gun has the limited power to rend flesh, but the tongue of Jesus, which is the sharp two-edged sword, hath the power to smite nations, to take life and to give life.

 

[Roh_Chris]

How to defend onceself on a personal level if it came to be? Is it a matter of WWJD? As a Canadian, I do feel a bit vulnerable to be honest.

I wanted to reply earlier but I got busy with work. Sorry for the late reply, Arwen.

I think Christians have a duty to step in when things get bad. And I don't believe that we ought to only "sit and pray" while the enemy wrecks havoc. I think it depends on the role that God has given you to perform. When Goliath challenged the Israelites, David did not wait for God to knock Him down with His arm. Or for God to send an angel and to smite Goliath. He took upon himself to fight Goliath, but he went in the name of the Lord. However, Hezekiah was the opposite. He cried unto God to save him from Sennacherib. And God sent an angel to smite the host of Sennacherib.

I think we need to clearly understand our calling. Some people are called to fight. Some are called to pray. Others are called to love. Some others are called to serve. Countries like the USA and UK are perhaps called to fight. They have to fight this war against the IS. Others ought to pray and uphold the ones who are fighting. This is the only way we can fight and win this war.

 

[Nautilus]

It is no juke brother, for a juke is a deception which is to say a lie. I tell you the truth. The Sword of Truth trumps any man made weapon. The gun has the limited power to rend flesh, but the tongue of Jesus, which is the sharp two-edged sword, hath the power to smite nations, to take life and to give life.

you clearly missed the entire point of the thread in favor of your personal ramblings. To be fair the sword of truth wont be nearly as effective as say, a desert eagle, if someone decided to break into my house.

 

[Roh_Chris]

I just realized that my reply was off-topic. As Lynx pointed out, the question was about defending oneself. Which I missed completely, in my earlier post. My bad.

I think we have the right to defend ourselves. There are differences of opinion about this. And I don't care what others may think or say. If someone were to harm my close friend or my family, I would fight them. Or at least die fighting them. I would let God preserve me if He wishes to. But I will not sit back, wave the Bible at them and tell them to "Be gone!". Yesterday I bought myself a 12-function Swiss Army Knife. I felt I needed it especially since I travel a lot. It has many uses for a frequent traveller like me, including for self-defense.

 

[arwen-undomiel]

I am afraid of retaliation, and feeling personally unarmed. Zero, it's not about street cred, the point of the coalition was so that the US isn't the brunt of the military force there. Obama took troops out of Iraq not just so he could put them back in. Obama asked Canada in August to join in air strikes- it's not about us trying to gain experience flying And yeah we have a large population of Muslims here, but that doesn't say we're protected?! ISIS is currently brainwashing men to join them, many have left the country. I am not naïve enough to think that the there are not men still residing in this country with that ideology. My point in all this, is to say, I am concerned and feeling vulnerable and I am not quite sure what to do.

 

[zeroturbulence]

I am afraid of retaliation, and feeling personally unarmed. Zero, it's not about street cred, the point of the coalition was so that the US isn't the brunt of the military force there. Obama took troops out of Iraq not just so he could put them back in. Obama asked Canada in August to join in air strikes- it's not about us trying to gain experience flying And yeah we have a large population of Muslims here, but that doesn't say we're protected?! ISIS is currently brainwashing men to join them, many have left the country. I am not naïve enough to think that the there are not men still residing in this country with that ideology. My point in all this, is to say, I am concerned and feeling vulnerable and I am not quite sure what to do.

Ok yes I understand what you're saying. I'm actually listening right now to a radio conversion about a 21 yr old man who left the US on the assumption that he was going to visit his parents in canada, but instead of stopping in canada he went on to syria and joined isis. His parents tried to stop him and even tried to have him arrested but they found out too late. They tried to get in touch with him or at least find him with the help of turkey's government intelligence agency and just today or yesterday were told that they think he was among the dead in the bombing that the US just did.

So, yes there are these dissenters living among us but there's a very slim chance you will be targeted by one of them unless you go around shouting death to isis at the top of your lungs in public or something.. In any case, God protects his children (his angels will lift u up lest you dash your foot against a stone). You don't need a gun...you already have the best protection there is.. GOD.

p.s. - by 'street cred' I was referring to actual combat experience. War is the only time they get to try their military's mettle against a real enemy.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I am afraid of retaliation, and feeling personally unarmed. Zero, it's not about street cred, the point of the coalition was so that the US isn't the brunt of the military force there. Obama took troops out of Iraq not just so he could put them back in. Obama asked Canada in August to join in air strikes- it's not about us trying to gain experience flying And yeah we have a large population of Muslims here, but that doesn't say we're protected?! ISIS is currently brainwashing men to join them, many have left the country. I am not naïve enough to think that the there are not men still residing in this country with that ideology. My point in all this, is to say, I am concerned and feeling vulnerable and I am not quite sure what to do.

Don't be afraid, truth is in Jesus.

Isaiah 54

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

 

[Jullianna]

I am afraid of retaliation, and feeling personally unarmed. Zero, it's not about street cred, the point of the coalition was so that the US isn't the brunt of the military force there. Obama took troops out of Iraq not just so he could put them back in. Obama asked Canada in August to join in air strikes- it's not about us trying to gain experience flying And yeah we have a large population of Muslims here, but that doesn't say we're protected?! ISIS is currently brainwashing men to join them, many have left the country. I am not naïve enough to think that the there are not men still residing in this country with that ideology. My point in all this, is to say, I am concerned and feeling vulnerable and I am not quite sure what to do.

arwen, I understand where you are coming from. All of us are becoming more and more vulnerable.

I pray some of these things will help you <3

- Trust the Lord. Nothing is going to happen to you that He doesn't know about. I know it sounds cliché, but it is absolutely true. Follow Him closely. Stand in the cleft of the Rock.

- As for what do to on a daily basis, the best thing I can tell you is to keep your head up. Pay attention to what is going on around you each and every day. Look people in the eye. Learn to read them well. Be observant for warnings. The brain is the most powerful weapon you have.

So often we don't use common sense. We become absorbed in our own little worlds. We keep our heads down. We walk around with earplugs and cellphones in our faces and ears. Even in our cars we are often completely ignorant of our surroundings. We are making ourselves vulnerable. We can't be doing that. We need to be paying attention.

- If you are not comfortable with a firearm, consider pepper sprays, tasers, etc.

- Get involved. If you see something suspicious, report it. It might not be anything (and we all hope it isn't), but if it IS something, you have helped tremendously.