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E
Context is ignored way too much. Words twisted to what we want them to say. Refusing to study the Bible on a whole but just taking one verse and basing a whole theology off of it. Those are bad enough but when we remove ourselves from any society responsibility and just let others "fend for themselves" it just gets worse.
First, I think it is unappropriate for you to speak in insulting me by calling me "homeboy" when such a thing is not Christ like. Second, if you believe the Old Testament has been done away with, then why are looking to the Old Testament as if it is still binding? Does the New Testament line up with what you believe the OT teaches?
The verses in the NT do not really say specifically that it is talking about the believer to use lethal force. Only a few small verses have to be twistd out of context to defend your viewpoint. Jesus made it clear that we are to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek in reference to OT judgment. There is no example of Jesus and the apostles fighting back. No teaching for the believer on the art of war in self defense, either. That is what you are not getting, my friend. You are making the Scriptures say something that they do not.
Well, I stand by what I said...which is worse me calling you homeboy or you attributing something to me that I did not say nor imply which is lying...so you choose.....doesn't matter what anyone says to you as you reject the truth, argue the truth away and add words and beliefs unto people who are not saying nor implying such things...Grow up and don't be so easily offended which is a sure sign of spiritual immaturity!
E
Actually you refuse to admit that we have a responsibility to society, since we are part of it, do defend the helpless to a point we may not particularly like (ie. Shooting someone if all other options are closed). I really don't want to have to shoot anyone but if I have to, to stop a heinous act then I will.
You said earlier in this forum that God used David to kill Goliath. What's to say that God couldn't use me to do the same to someone?
In the OT God used many different people to kill because it was His Sovereign Will. Do you not think that God could use His Sovereign Will the same way today?
That is our main point in this argument. Not that we would want too but we are willing to.
Oh and Jason about you saying I twist scripture to say what I want. Show me where I did that. And besides you still think Jesus turned water into juice not wine so kinda hard for you to say others are twisting words or meanings or context when you have.
You said earlier in this forum that God used David to kill Goliath. What's to say that God couldn't use me to do the same to someone?
In the OT God used many different people to kill because it was His Sovereign Will. Do you not think that God could use His Sovereign Will the same way today?
That is our main point in this argument. Not that we would want too but we are willing to.
Oh and Jason about you saying I twist scripture to say what I want. Show me where I did that. And besides you still think Jesus turned water into juice not wine so kinda hard for you to say others are twisting words or meanings or context when you have.
E
Both of you have been either bragging and/or exhibiting the fruits of the flesh. In your case, I did not say that you were bragging but rather exercising the vanity of pleasing the flesh by throwing a rock through someone's window. Which isn't as much of an act of defense as it is of defiance and revenge.
Jason has been the most Christ-like person in this conversation. It would seem he has not even raised his voice while being surrounded by accusers and misrepresentations and practically no one on his side besides myself. This man has been exhibiting the fruits of the Spirit while those who are advocating what is supposedly self-defense have been unleashing secular talk about their favorite guns and wine as well as bragging about how much pain they would inflict on someone who hypothetically assaulted a family member and how they would lose control and beat the living day lights out of violent people.
With that, I leave this conversation to the audience to determine and weigh my words if they are true. Are these people who advocate for violence in violent situations the shining examples of Christian maturity that you would wish to be in a few years? Are they striving to die to themselves and live a crucified life? Or are they still pursuing heavily after the things of this life and unwilling to let go? Be careful who you follow. They could lead you right into a ditch.
I'll leave this to the viewer to exercise Christian discernment in this issue. Consider my opinion invalid, if you wish (since I am biased as a pacifist) and go back and read what has been said and the manner in which it has been spoken.
E
I am gonna say something here that I know I will catch heat for, from either someone or every one.
This is post 1,093 on an issue that will never be resolved because we have two sides that are passionate about their position. We have two sides that are defending their position from two different perspectives. One Biblical only and one Biblical and sociological.
One one side (pacifist) based on all Biblical issues and there is nothing wrong with that. The other Biblical and sociological and there is nothing wrong with that.
We all say "what would Jesus do". Serious problem with this is we aren't Jesus. We should be thinking "what would Jesus have me do". From the pacifist point they feel Jesus would have them do one thing from the non pacifist point it's a totally different thing.
Both sides look at a situation first from the Biblical view..how can we diffuse the situation peacefully. Both sides then feel if necessary we would next take a physical action to stop the situation. The next point is the difference...what If physical won't work? Some feel lethal force might be needed some feel lethal force is wrong.
This is where the sociological thinking differs. I feel it is my responsibility to society to use lethal force if necessary and ONLY as a last and final resort. Others (pacifist) feel lethal force is totally wrong. You know what...to each person it's their own conviction. Fine you won't use lethal force and I would. This is where we will jump all over each others throats! Why? It's non Biblical...it's Biblical back and forth dividing Christians over a situation that may or may not ever happen.
If i ever get into a situation where it might escalate to a lethal point I want Jason by my side. Yeah your all thinking "what the heck is he saying?". I'll explain...Jason just might be able to talk the person down and diffuse it but if not and it became lethal I could be there to protect Jason. Can you see how that would work? Two Christians two different views working together for the good of people around them. I can't say I would have the words Jason would use and Jason wouldn't use lethal force. I know Jason would hate the fact I used lethal force but I would hate the fact that if I didn't use lethal force Jason just might get seriously hurt (I only use Jason as an example because I know our views are so opposite on this. I don't ever wish harm on Jason. Ever!)
Can you all see what I am saying or do you just want to argue more over a subject that will NEVER get resolved to a final conclusion where both sides totally agree.
This is post 1,093 on an issue that will never be resolved because we have two sides that are passionate about their position. We have two sides that are defending their position from two different perspectives. One Biblical only and one Biblical and sociological.
One one side (pacifist) based on all Biblical issues and there is nothing wrong with that. The other Biblical and sociological and there is nothing wrong with that.
We all say "what would Jesus do". Serious problem with this is we aren't Jesus. We should be thinking "what would Jesus have me do". From the pacifist point they feel Jesus would have them do one thing from the non pacifist point it's a totally different thing.
Both sides look at a situation first from the Biblical view..how can we diffuse the situation peacefully. Both sides then feel if necessary we would next take a physical action to stop the situation. The next point is the difference...what If physical won't work? Some feel lethal force might be needed some feel lethal force is wrong.
This is where the sociological thinking differs. I feel it is my responsibility to society to use lethal force if necessary and ONLY as a last and final resort. Others (pacifist) feel lethal force is totally wrong. You know what...to each person it's their own conviction. Fine you won't use lethal force and I would. This is where we will jump all over each others throats! Why? It's non Biblical...it's Biblical back and forth dividing Christians over a situation that may or may not ever happen.
If i ever get into a situation where it might escalate to a lethal point I want Jason by my side. Yeah your all thinking "what the heck is he saying?". I'll explain...Jason just might be able to talk the person down and diffuse it but if not and it became lethal I could be there to protect Jason. Can you see how that would work? Two Christians two different views working together for the good of people around them. I can't say I would have the words Jason would use and Jason wouldn't use lethal force. I know Jason would hate the fact I used lethal force but I would hate the fact that if I didn't use lethal force Jason just might get seriously hurt (I only use Jason as an example because I know our views are so opposite on this. I don't ever wish harm on Jason. Ever!)
Can you all see what I am saying or do you just want to argue more over a subject that will NEVER get resolved to a final conclusion where both sides totally agree.
E
Let's say for instance Jason was the one who was there when my sister needed help. I believe Jason would have done the same first thing I did...diffuse the situation with physical force. The only difference would have been the extreme to which I took it and Jason would have taken it.
I escorted the guy out my way. Jason would have escorted the guy out his way. Either way the guy was escorted out.
I have been beating up the pacifist pretty bad I'll admit that. And they have been beating me up the same. Over what? One disagreement! They say I have "been bragging". WRONG! I have only been stating what I would do and what I have done. Well they been "bragging" too about what they would do. It goes both ways.
Are any of us better than the other? Well if you think so then you need to start rethinking.
I will still use lethal force if needed and I will still carry conceal for that "just in case". Do I need to look down on someone else's view on this because they think differently?
I have been looking down on them and man how stupid I have been on that. God asked me this morning why I was doing that. Only one word came to mind.....PRIDE! And pride is why it's been the other way around also.
We are proud we find Biblical answers for our defense and we are proud we would we would defend society. If you can't see the pride in what we all have been doing, me the most, then we need to get on our knees all together before God.
EC and Jason (and every other pacifist here) I am sorry my pride got in the way of understanding your viewpoint and just accepting that your convictions and my convictions are...well just different.
I escorted the guy out my way. Jason would have escorted the guy out his way. Either way the guy was escorted out.
I have been beating up the pacifist pretty bad I'll admit that. And they have been beating me up the same. Over what? One disagreement! They say I have "been bragging". WRONG! I have only been stating what I would do and what I have done. Well they been "bragging" too about what they would do. It goes both ways.
Are any of us better than the other? Well if you think so then you need to start rethinking.
I will still use lethal force if needed and I will still carry conceal for that "just in case". Do I need to look down on someone else's view on this because they think differently?
I have been looking down on them and man how stupid I have been on that. God asked me this morning why I was doing that. Only one word came to mind.....PRIDE! And pride is why it's been the other way around also.
We are proud we find Biblical answers for our defense and we are proud we would we would defend society. If you can't see the pride in what we all have been doing, me the most, then we need to get on our knees all together before God.
EC and Jason (and every other pacifist here) I am sorry my pride got in the way of understanding your viewpoint and just accepting that your convictions and my convictions are...well just different.
Every situation is different. That's why God's word supports both sides of this argument. A man who is raping a woman with a knife to her throat is different than one who has just over powered her. The best that we can do is weigh the situation, and trust God that what we are going to do is the correct action. IMHO, in no way would God want us to cause further harm to the victim.