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I could say the same thing about presenting Lazarus and the rich man as proof that people suffer ECT. Jesus told us where the wicked will be burned, it's Gehenna. Yet, in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man is in Hades. surely Jesus knows the difference, so say the rich man is suffering ECT make Jesus' statements contradictory. Since we know they are not contradictory, the only conclusion is that the rich man was not suffering ECT.
The above states all I need to know about your theology...no sense in us discussing anything when you reject the very words of Jesus himself...so....it would be a colossal waste of time for sure.....!
I apologize for temporarily derailing this thread, but another user just asked me this question, and I really don't know the answer for sure. "If someone commits suicide, do they go to hell"?
I know the bible says thou shall not kill..but are there any scriptures that say where a person who commits suicide goes? Thanks..
I figured since this thread is about hell it was the best place to ask this question..lol
I know the bible says thou shall not kill..but are there any scriptures that say where a person who commits suicide goes? Thanks..
I figured since this thread is about hell it was the best place to ask this question..lol
I could say the same thing about presenting Lazarus and the rich man as proof that people suffer ECT. Jesus told us where the wicked will be burned, it's Gehenna. Yet, in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man is in Hades. surely Jesus knows the difference, so say the rich man is suffering ECT make Jesus' statements contradictory. Since we know they are not contradictory, the only conclusion is that the rich man was not suffering ECT.
The above states all I need to know about your theology...no sense in us discussing anything when you reject the very words of Jesus himself...so....it would be a colossal waste of time for sure.....!
Does this mean that you don't have the evidence to make your case? I mean, if i'm as far off base as it seems you think I am then you should only need one or two passages of Scripture to prove me wrong.
You still haven't addressed the contradiction I've pointed out. If you believe the rich man is suffering ECT in Hades, why did Jesus say the wicked would suffer in Gehenna?
I apologize for temporarily derailing this thread, but another user just asked me this question, and I really don't know the answer for sure. "If someone commits suicide, do they go to hell"?
I know the bible says thou shall not kill..but are there any scriptures that say where a person who commits suicide goes? Thanks.. I figured since this thread is about hell it was the best place to ask this question..lol
I know the bible says thou shall not kill..but are there any scriptures that say where a person who commits suicide goes? Thanks..
I figured since this thread is about hell it was the best place to ask this question..lol
You said Hell, I am assuming you mean Gehenna is that correct? Hell, is actually Hades, it is the grave. All who die go to Hades, the grave.
I don't know of any passage that directly addresses suicide. However, the Scriptures say that the only sin that is unforgivable is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
J
I apologize for temporarily derailing this thread, but another user just asked me this question, and I really don't know the answer for sure. "If someone commits suicide, do they go to hell"?
I know the bible says thou shall not kill..but are there any scriptures that say where a person who commits suicide goes? Thanks.. I figured since this thread is about hell it was the best place to ask this question..lol
I know the bible says thou shall not kill..but are there any scriptures that say where a person who commits suicide goes? Thanks..
I figured since this thread is about hell it was the best place to ask this question..lol
I don't know what or where Gehenna is. LOL. Never even heard that term before. When I say hell, I mean where Satan and his demons reside..And thank you for answering my question, Butch.
You're welcome. There are three different places in the Bible that English translators have translated as hell. There is Hades, which is the grave, there is Gehenna, which is where Jesus said the wicked will be thrown, John calls it the Lake of Fire. The final place is called Tartarus, and it is a place that is reserved for spirits. The problem is that these are three completely different place yet the KJV translates all three by the same word hell. This causes much confusion among English speaking Christians because they see one word, hell. They don't don't know if it's Gehenna, Hades, or Tartarus. what this does is confuse the subject, suddenly all three places get merged together and every time the word hell is read it's understood to be some subterranean place of fiery torment when in actuality this is not the case.
J
Who on earth is Ellen G. White? lol
We all know what Jesus has said Himself in the Gospels. Noone is denying that hell (Gehenna) and the lake of fire exists. It is a matter of WHEN it exists, and what happens to those cast into it. Here is a short breakdown. Read what the Bible and Thayer's Dictionary says. I didn't make this up.
WHEN
Matthew 13:40 "As therefore the tares [the children of the wicked one - v.38] are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this world."
How could the tares be burning at death if the end of this world has yet to come?
2 Peter 2:9 "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:"
reserve (G5083) [tereo]
1. to attend to carefully, take care of
a. to guard
b. metaphorically to keep, one in the state in which he is
c. to observe
d. to reserve: to undergo something
If the unjust are reserved until the day of judgment to be punished, how are they punished beforehand?
WHAT HAPPENS
Psalm 37:9-10 "For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yeah, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."
cut off (H3772) [karath]
1. to cut, cut off, cut down, cut off a body part, cut out, eliminate, kill, cut a covenant
a. (Qal)
1. to cut off
a. to cut off a body part, behead
2. to cut down
3. to hew
4. to cut or make a covenant
b. (Niphal)
1. to be cut off
2. to be cut down
3. to be chewed
4. to be cut off, fail
c. (Pual)
1. to be cut off
2. to be cut down
d. (Hiphil)
1. to cut off
2. to cut off, destroy
3. to cut down, destroy
4. to take away
5. to permit to perish
Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."
perish (H6) [abad]
1. perish, vanish, go astray, be destroyed
a. (Qal)
1. perish, die, be exterminated
2. perish, vanish (figuratively)
3. be lost, strayed
b. (Piel)
1. to destroy, kill, cause to perish, to give up
2. to blot out, do away with, cause to vanish, (figuratively)
3. cause to stray, lose
c. (Hiphil)
1. to destroy, put to death
a. of divine judgment
2. object name of kings (figuratively)
consume; consume away (H3615) [kalah]
1. to accomplish, cease, consume, determine, end, fail, finish, be complete, be accomplished, be ended, be at an end, be finished, be spent
a. (Qal)
1. to be complete, be at an end
2. to be completed, be finished
3. to be accomplished, be fulfilled
4. to be determined, be plotted (bad sense)
5. to be spent, be used up
6. to waste away, be exhausted, fail
7. to come to an end, vanish, perish, be destroyed
b. (Piel)
1. to complete, bring to an end, finish
2. to complete (a period of time)
3. to finish (doing a thing)
4. to make an end, end
5. to accomplish, fulfill, bring to pass
6. to accomplish, determine (in thought)
7. to put an end to, cause to cease
8. to cause to fail, exhaust, use up, spend
9. to destroy, exterminate
c. (Pual) to be finished, be ended, be completed
Psalm 37:38 "But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."
destroyed (H8045) [shamad]
1. to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated
a. (Niphal)
1. to be annihilated, be exterminated
2. to be destroyed, be devastated
b. (Hiphil)
1. to annihilate, exterminate
2. to destroy
cut off *same as above
EVEN THE FAMOUS JOHN 3:16 MENTIONS DESTRUCTION IN CONTRAST TO ETERNAL LIFE
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
perish (G622) [apollumi]
1. to destroy
a. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
b. render useless
c. to kill
d. to declare that one must be put to death
e. metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
f. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2. to destroy
a. to lose
God Bless
WHEN
Matthew 13:40 "As therefore the tares [the children of the wicked one - v.38] are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of this world."
How could the tares be burning at death if the end of this world has yet to come?
2 Peter 2:9 "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:"
reserve (G5083) [tereo]
1. to attend to carefully, take care of
a. to guard
b. metaphorically to keep, one in the state in which he is
c. to observe
d. to reserve: to undergo something
If the unjust are reserved until the day of judgment to be punished, how are they punished beforehand?
WHAT HAPPENS
Psalm 37:9-10 "For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yeah, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."
cut off (H3772) [karath]
1. to cut, cut off, cut down, cut off a body part, cut out, eliminate, kill, cut a covenant
a. (Qal)
1. to cut off
a. to cut off a body part, behead
2. to cut down
3. to hew
4. to cut or make a covenant
b. (Niphal)
1. to be cut off
2. to be cut down
3. to be chewed
4. to be cut off, fail
c. (Pual)
1. to be cut off
2. to be cut down
d. (Hiphil)
1. to cut off
2. to cut off, destroy
3. to cut down, destroy
4. to take away
5. to permit to perish
Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."
perish (H6) [abad]
1. perish, vanish, go astray, be destroyed
a. (Qal)
1. perish, die, be exterminated
2. perish, vanish (figuratively)
3. be lost, strayed
b. (Piel)
1. to destroy, kill, cause to perish, to give up
2. to blot out, do away with, cause to vanish, (figuratively)
3. cause to stray, lose
c. (Hiphil)
1. to destroy, put to death
a. of divine judgment
2. object name of kings (figuratively)
consume; consume away (H3615) [kalah]
1. to accomplish, cease, consume, determine, end, fail, finish, be complete, be accomplished, be ended, be at an end, be finished, be spent
a. (Qal)
1. to be complete, be at an end
2. to be completed, be finished
3. to be accomplished, be fulfilled
4. to be determined, be plotted (bad sense)
5. to be spent, be used up
6. to waste away, be exhausted, fail
7. to come to an end, vanish, perish, be destroyed
b. (Piel)
1. to complete, bring to an end, finish
2. to complete (a period of time)
3. to finish (doing a thing)
4. to make an end, end
5. to accomplish, fulfill, bring to pass
6. to accomplish, determine (in thought)
7. to put an end to, cause to cease
8. to cause to fail, exhaust, use up, spend
9. to destroy, exterminate
c. (Pual) to be finished, be ended, be completed
Psalm 37:38 "But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."
destroyed (H8045) [shamad]
1. to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated
a. (Niphal)
1. to be annihilated, be exterminated
2. to be destroyed, be devastated
b. (Hiphil)
1. to annihilate, exterminate
2. to destroy
cut off *same as above
EVEN THE FAMOUS JOHN 3:16 MENTIONS DESTRUCTION IN CONTRAST TO ETERNAL LIFE
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
perish (G622) [apollumi]
1. to destroy
a. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
b. render useless
c. to kill
d. to declare that one must be put to death
e. metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
f. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2. to destroy
a. to lose
God Bless
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Not at all my friend. You know, if you studied the earliest Christians you'd see that what is called Christianity today is vastly different from what they called Christianity. I'd bet that if the early Christian leaders came back to life and were put in charge of American churches probably 95% of the Christians would be excommunicated.
You haven't even made a case for your claim. Trying to tie us to SDA's is a fallacy know as poisoning the well. I've presented quite a bit of support for what I've said. You're more than welcome to address some of it.
You haven't even made a case for your claim. Trying to tie us to SDA's is a fallacy know as poisoning the well. I've presented quite a bit of support for what I've said. You're more than welcome to address some of it.
T
Lazarus and the Rich Man was but one in about three or four parables in a row that Christ had been speaking. Go back and look. Also, if you have one of the large family Bibles in your home where one can list all the deaths, births, and marriages of his family and has all the old maps in it, it will probably have a listing entitled the "Parables of Christ" or something along that line. Anyway, I have three of them all from different publishers and all about 25 or so years apart and they all have such a listing. Lazarus and the Rich Man is listed as a parable under "Parables of the Christ." Glad I could help.
Your stress and confusion seems to be largely over misunderstandings of other Scriptures, not all are talking about Hades and Hell.
You stated: I have heard there are varying degrees of suffering depending on the depth of sin one has committed during their lifetime. There is a misunderstanding of how bad God considers sin, and I know it is a very common misunderstanding.
James 2:10 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
Only man sees sin as little sins and BIG sins. GOD sees any sin as breaking ALL OF THE LAW. Therefore, the we worst mass murderer on death row is not a worse sinner than us, WE ARE AS BAD AS HIM.
Another common misunderstanding that has grown into a false doctrine is: "A loving GOD would not send anybody to Hell." You cannot pick and choose the part of GOD's nature and characteristics that you like and REJECT THE REST. In doing so you create a False GOD, or False CHRIST.
HE is by Nature LOVING:
Zephaniah 3:17 (HCSB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Yahweh your God is among you, a warrior who saves. He will rejoice over you with gladness. He will bring ⌊you⌋ quietness with His love. He will delight in you with shouts of joy.”
Exodus 34:6-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Then the LORD passed in front of him and proclaimed: Yahweh—Yahweh is a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger and rich in faithful love and truth,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] maintaining faithful love to a thousand ⌊generations⌋, forgiving wrongdoing, rebellion, and sin. But He will not leave ⌊the guilty⌋ unpunished, bringing the consequences of the fathers’ wrongdoing on the children and grandchildren to the third and fourth generation.
Exodus 20:5-7 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You must not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the fathers’ sin, to the third and fourth ⌊generations⌋ of those who hate Me,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] but showing faithful love to a thousand ⌊generations⌋ of those who love Me and keep My commands.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Do not misuse the name of the LORD your God, because the LORD will not leave anyone unpunished who misuses His name.
AND HE is by Nature a perfectly JUST GOD.
The other side of that coin that has GOD IS LOVE stamped on one side, has GOD IS PERFECTLY HOLY AND JUST stamped on the other side. HE will JUDGE AND PUNISH SIN PERFECTLY, and if you reject the blood of the Cross as payment for your sins, then you will pay for that SIN of rejection yourself. You see there is really ONLY ONE SIN that is unforgivable, and that rejecting what the Holy Spirit has been trying to get you to believe about Christ.
1 John 2:2 (NIV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
HOWEVER, HE SAID:
Mark 3:28-29 (HCSB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] I assure you: People will be forgiven for all sins and whatever blasphemies they may blaspheme.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—
That would be the ONLY sin that GOD considers worse than any other sin. That blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit is rejecting what the Holy Spirit has been trying to get them to Believe about Jesus Christ.
That sin can NEVER be FORGIVEN.
THE REST of our sins are forgivable and are coequally BAD, requiring confession and repentance, while we mourn over that sinfulness, but all of them can be cleansed by the blood of the Cross. I used to be a Volunteer Protestant Prison Chaplain, in the largest, end of the line Super Max Prison's Security Housing Unit [S.H.U., what inmates call the Hole], in California. I had the joy and privilege of leading a few to genuinely come to KNOW and LOVE JESUS AS LORD, even though Biblically according to GOD's WORD, the State should have executed them. YES HE can save even murderers.
You questioned "Where is Hell". It does not give us a EXACT location, but it is the opposite of where GOD is, and it too is the End of the Line in GOD's Justice System. The main difference between the S.H.U. and HELL, is I saw a few earn a parole, and have their sentence come to an end in the S.H.U.; while those sentenced by GOD to Hell, will NEVER get out on good behavior and NEVER have their sentence come to an end.
Revelation 14:11 (NKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Revelation 20:13-15 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 25:41 (HCSB)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] Then He will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!
It is not ETERNAL Torment and Fire if it can come to an end, or one can be eventually released from Hell.
So when is Judgement day? According to the Bible that is AFTER Jesus Christ returns and RULES as KING of kings for One Thousand Years on the The Throne of DAVID. So what happens to believers and unbelievers in the mean time? When the Believer dies his human spirit goes immediately to the Throne Room in Heaven:
Revelation 6:9-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] They cried out with a loud voice: “Lord, the One who is holy and true, how long until You judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?”
[SUP]11 [/SUP] So a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer until ⌊the number⌋ would be completed ⌊of⌋ their fellow slaves and their brothers, who were going to be killed just as they had been.
And when the unbeliever dies, where does his human spirit go?
Luke 16:22-24 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] One day the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s side {another name for Paradise or under the Altar in Heaven}. The rich man also died and was buried.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And being in torment in Hades, he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off, with Lazarus at his side.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] ‘Father Abraham!’ he called out, ‘Have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this flame!’
Hades is a place of torment for disembodied human spirits of the unbelievers, while later on, after the unbelievers are resurrected and face Jesus Christ on Judgement day, they in their resurrected bodies will be sent to the Lake of Fire, which is HELL.
Is it unusual to have family members NOT want to listen to your witnessing? NO, unfortunately that is VERY COMMON. Here is why:
Matthew 13:57-58 (HCSB)
[SUP]57 [/SUP] And they were offended by Him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his household.”
[SUP]58 [/SUP] And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.
I ran into the same problem, so I started PRAYING for GOD to send someone else to lead them to the TRUTH. Over the years I have seen the vast majority of my family come to know and Love Jesus as LORD. Some were lead by the teachings of their Pastors and some by friends and coworkers. Praying to GOD to send another teacher of the gospel's TRUTH to your family, certainly is in line with GOD's will.
You said you don't want to see family members go to hell, and no one would. However GOD is perfect and his justice is perfect. First of all, when we are called to heaven, I do not believe our focus will be looking back on family members, but rather WE WILL BE PURELY FOCUSED ON CHRIST HIMSELF. Also, I want to give you hope, in that IF a person lives up the to the little LIGHT (thruths about Jesus Christ) that they have been given, GOD will send them more LIGHT. If he or she dies before that additional light arrives with understanding, they still will be saved. It helps to think of family that you are praying for, as "NOT YET SAVED", instead of thinking they are "UNSAVED". Again I suggest, pray for someone they do respect as a born again Christian to come and share Christ with them.
Ephesians 4:11-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.
T
I apologize for temporarily derailing this thread, but another user just asked me this question, and I really don't know the answer for sure. "If someone commits suicide, do they go to hell"?
I know the bible says thou shall not kill..but are there any scriptures that say where a person who commits suicide goes? Thanks.. I figured since this thread is about hell it was the best place to ask this question..lol
I know the bible says thou shall not kill..but are there any scriptures that say where a person who commits suicide goes? Thanks..
I figured since this thread is about hell it was the best place to ask this question..lol
T
I like the Baptists myself. They've got it down pat.
The Baptists have condemned everyone except themselves. They don't really do anything but sing a few hymns and pay their tithes. When the Tribulation comes, the Baptists are simply going to be raptured away to the safety of Heaven where they can play their harps and eat grapes in their mansions while mankind on earth is tortured and killed. That's the religion to belong to.
The Baptists have condemned everyone except themselves. They don't really do anything but sing a few hymns and pay their tithes. When the Tribulation comes, the Baptists are simply going to be raptured away to the safety of Heaven where they can play their harps and eat grapes in their mansions while mankind on earth is tortured and killed. That's the religion to belong to.