What did the Jew receive first?

[chubbena]

Not quite. . .nice try at deceptively slipping the law into grace.

You've been flim-flammed.

from one who tries deceptively slipping the law out of the scripture which is the Word of God.

"Out of his fullness (Jesus Christ, vv. 14-15) we have all received grace on top of grace,"

It is of Christ's fullness that we have all received grace, and that's not "through the law of Moses."

Would like to know which bible version is have this translation "grace on top of grace".
How could one separate verse 16 where it says "in place of grace already given" with verse 17 "for the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" when original language has the conjunction "for" unless one deliberately wants to in order to uphold his opinion?

And that's a distinction between, and not an identity of, the law of Moses and the grace of Jesus Christ.

Isn't the phrase "not an identity of" purposefully and solely added by this poster to express his opinion?

The OT saints and John saw the grace of God in the law given through Moses.

That's one of your many deceptions you would have us believe the text states.

Only when one is blind to or do not believe in the Word of God who spoke through Moses: "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness" right before He wrote His words in the stone tablets and echoed by the Psalmist: "Jehovah is gracious, and merciful; Slow to anger, and of great loving kindness. Jehovah is good to all; And his tender mercies are over all his works" who also wrote "His law is perfect."

 

[psychomom]

i'm...perplexed.

why on earth would we want to elevate Moses or Jews or anything
above our dear Lord Jesus?

God's Law is good! has to be...it comes from GOD.
but there's something better...God's Gospel. ♥

 

[RedTent]

i'm...perplexed.

why on earth would we want to elevate Moses or Jews or anything
above our dear Lord Jesus?

God's Law is good! has to be...it comes from GOD.
but there's something better...God's Gospel. ♥

Did someone try to "elevate" something? God used Jews. God spoke to Moses.
The gospel speaks of salvation through Christ. We can speak of these things without any elevating to it, surely? Our triune God is the only one anyone has elevated that I can see and we can't elevate God above God they are one.

It seems to me if there is any "elevating" done it is trying to say God is not one but one is elevated over another aspect of God and they don't speak with one voice.

 

[psychomom]

Did someone try to "elevate" something?

i do believe so, Ma'am.
maybe i'm the only one who sees it that way?

it is pretty subtle...even coming from you.

 

[chubbena]

i'm...perplexed.

why on earth would we want to elevate Moses or Jews or anything
above our dear Lord Jesus?

God's Law is good! has to be...it comes from GOD.
but there's something better...God's Gospel. ♥

Only when some want to discredit the word of God spoken through Moses. I have never seen a thread saying Moses is better than the Christ but I have seen enough saying the Word of God spoken through Paul that the Word of God spoken through Moses is obsolete.
For example the "we establish the law... but how" thread. We establish the law by making it obsolete?

 

[psychomom]

Only when some want to discredit the word of God spoken through Moses. I have never seen a thread saying Moses is better than the Christ but I have seen enough saying the Word of God spoken through Paul that the Word of God spoken through Moses is obsolete.
For example the "we establish the law... but how" thread. We establish the law by making it obsolete?

it's not God's Law that the NT says is obsolete...
God's Law is a reflection of His own character, and will be with us always.
it's needed to lead sinners to Christ,
and to convict God's children when they sin.

however, it's the covenant established through Moses that the Scripture says is obsolete...
and that's for our good, too.
we couldn't ever live up to the terms of that covenant,
just as the children of Israel couldn't.

 

[RedTent]

i do believe so, Ma'am.
maybe i'm the only one who sees it that way?

it is pretty subtle...even coming from you.

Me subtle?? I'm so old I may be gone tomorrow, I haven't the time to beat around the bush. I tell it as I see it, and I try to never see with my personal eyes but only through the eyes of Christ.

 

[RedTent]

it's not God's Law that the NT says is obsolete...
God's Law is a reflection of His own character, and will be with us always.
it's needed to lead sinners to Christ,
and to convict God's children when they sin.

however, it's the covenant established through Moses that the Scripture says is obsolete...
and that's for our good, too.
we couldn't ever live up to the terms of that covenant,
just as the children of Israel couldn't.

Did you read and study this covenant with Moses? I did. God's part of it is that what we are obedience to will result in blessings for us (not salvation, but blessings) and what we disobey will result in curses. That is it. Another way of saying it is that we reap what we sow. I didn't read anything in the covenant saying that the entire covenant was cancelled if we didn't live up to every guidance or word we are given. A legal document between humans is binding, this is one from God. God is more reliable than any human.

Salvation is completely apart from the covenant with Moses, that is through grace and faith.

 

[psychomom]

Did you read and study this covenant with Moses? I did.

yes, Ma'am, i did.

and most importantly, i read and studied the New Covenant made in Jesus' blood.

not that i'll ever be done studying either.

 

[RedTent]

yes, Ma'am, i did.

and most importantly, i read and studied the New Covenant made in Jesus' blood.

not that i'll ever be done studying either.

Isn't that the truth!! And with each study a new layer of understanding happens! Just as the book of Hebrews does, I love starting a study from the beginning and following it through to how it was the same in Christ only better! Covenants, especially, are so special when studied that way.

 

[Elin]

Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given (or grace for grace in KJV) -
what is grace already given? The law given through Moses

Not quite. . .nice try at deceptively slipping the law into grace.

You've been flim-flammed by your contra-NT theology.

"Out of his fullness (Jesus Christ, vv. 14-15) we have all received grace on top of grace,"

It is of Christ's fullness that we have all received grace, and that's not "through the law of Moses."

Would like to know which bible version is have this translation "grace on top of grace".

That would be KJVII.

for John 1:17 says: "For the law was given through Moses: grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

And that's a distinction between, and not an identity of, the law of Moses and the grace of Jesus Christ.

The OT saints and John saw the grace of God in the law given through Moses.

That's one of your many deceptions you would have us believe the text states.

Only when one is blind to or do not believe in the Word of God who spoke through Moses: "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness" right before He wrote His words in the stone tablets and echoed by the Psalmist: "Jehovah is gracious, and merciful; Slow to anger, and of great loving kindness. Jehovah is good to all; And his tender mercies are over all his works" who also wrote "His law is perfect."

Previously addressed, above.

Jn 1:14-17 is clear and speaks for itself.

 

[Elin]

Only when some want to discredit the word of God spoken through Moses. I have never seen a thread saying Moses is better than the Christ but I have seen enough saying the Word of God spoken through Paul that the Word of God spoken through Moses is obsolete.
For example the "we establish the law... but how" thread. We establish the law by making it obsolete?

Previously and thoroughly addressed. . .multiple times.

 

[RedTent]

Previously and thoroughly addressed. . .multiple times.

I wondered how Elin had addressed everything multiple times so I went back and checked. Almost every post is just saying how wrong something is. There are many about pagan meanings of mystery!! #12 says Paul refers to believing gentiles in the NT receiving divine truths never before received. It makes you wonder if God looks at our race to determine if He will speak to us! Then she says that Paul does not speak of religions rites but of divine truths never before revealed. #17 accuses of mixing paganism with Christianity. *18 says divine truth was never before revealed. #25 is hard to understand, something about law and grace.

From this we are to know the true facts about what the Jew received first. Evidently, it was the gentiles who received divine truth??

 

[Elin]

I wondered how Elin had addressed everything multiple times so I went back and checked. Almost every post is just saying how wrong something is. There are many about pagan meanings of mystery!! #12 says Paul refers to believing gentiles in the NT receiving divine truths never before received. It makes you wonder if God looks at our race to determine if He will speak to us! Then she says that Paul does not speak of religions rites but of divine truths never before revealed. #17 accuses of mixing paganism with Christianity. *18 says divine truth was never before revealed. #25 is hard to understand, something about law and grace.

From this we are to know
the true facts about what the Jew received first. Evidently, it was the gentiles who received divine truth??

Now that's my RedTent!

Is that the subject chubbena was talking about and to which I was responding?

 

[RedTent]

Now that's my RedTent!

Is that the subject chubbena was talking about and to which I was responding?

The subject is what the Jews received first. You seem to feel that most posters have what they received first in the wrong way, but I am not clear about what you feel they received? Perhaps you feel that nothing they received was important, it was what gentiles received and Jews didn't that had importance?

 

[p_rehbein]

much like everyone else, the first thing the Jew received was a good smack to the buttocks to get the lungs going,,,,,,

 

[just-us-2]

Another question of the scripture that this thread is about concerning "to the Jew first and also the Gentile."

Is there any author of the Bible that was not from one of the tribes of Israel?

Now there are unknown authors such as the book of Job, so I'm not asking about those. There also has been a controversy about Luke but that has never been substantiated by any authoritative proof.

Since no one answered this that I noticed, I will pass my opinion on the question: No. As said by God Himself through men inspired to write down His words for all mankind, His people Israel would be the ones to receive from Him what to pass on to the rest of the world, so is it any wonder why the authors of the Bible were Jewish?

What is so hard to understand about "to the Jew first and then the Gentiles?"

Romans 2:8-10 (KJV) But unto them that are contentious , and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

...and from a different translation:
But to those who are self-seeking, who disobey the truth and obey evil, he will pay back wrath and anger. Yes, he will pay back misery and anguish to every human being who does evil, to the Jew first, then to the Gentile; but glory and honor and shalom to everyone who keeps doing what is good, to the Jew first, then to the Gentile.

Sometimes we get so used to reading scripture from a particular translation that we miss some of what it says and it usually helps to read it from another translation, but in this case, any way you shake it, it still comes out saying that God gave mankind His Word and the fulfillment thereof through the Jews (Jesus Christ), whom He said were to be a light unto the whole world -
Luke 2:30-32 (KJV) For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

People will use supposed "intelligent" conversation to prove this is not the case which only shows the propagators of the falsehood to be very unintelligent as they try to impress others with man's wisdom - sort of like being "intelligently ignorant." It isn't hard to understand...but maybe some of the opposition is deliberate rejection of these scriptures rather than inability to understand...and that is a scary thought.

 

[just-me]

Post #19

The lexicon points to the Greek word (which is the original language of the NT) musterion;

3466 mystḗrion (the root of the English term, "mystery") – mystery. In the Bible, a "mystery" (3466 /mystḗrion) *is not something unknowable. Rather, it is what can only be known through revelation, i.e. because God reveals it.

Good post. It was never something that was unknown, but revealed by God at the appropriate time in history.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in .

Ephesians 3:3-4
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby , when ye read , ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 1:9-10
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the *dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Paul explains the "dispensation of the Grace" that was revealed to the Gentiles by his preaching and epistles. “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:” (Ephesians 3:1-2)

He says by revelation, God made clear to him the "mystery" of the relationship of the Jew and Gentile in the church. He explains that in the Old Testament this truth of the coming of the institution of the local church was not revealed, but is now revealed by the apostles, and prophets by the Holy Spirit. “Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;” (Ephesians 3:5)

What was the mystery that was now revealed?“That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"(Ephesians 3:6) of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (Romans 2:9-10)

Paul clearly says that this truth *now should be known to everyone.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given , that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, *which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

 

[dberrie2000]

I really want this to be a learning thread rather than an arguing thread, so whoever wants to argue rather than learn and share, please do not contribute. Then we will see how much good this Bible study forum can be.

So the question is "what did the Jew receive before the Gentiles i.e. Greeks?"

I suppose you are referring to the NT? The Jews received the gospel before the Gentiles--it was about a decade after the resurrection of Christ before the Jews of the first century church took the gospel to the Gentiles--see Acts10&11.

 

[Elin]

The subject is what the Jews received first. You seem to feel that most posters have what they received first in the wrong way, but I am not clear about what you feel they received? Perhaps you feel that nothing they received was important, it was what gentiles received and Jews didn't that had importance?

Now that's RedTent (maybe).

If you've been following the discussion, you know that I am dealing with the NT meaning of "mystery"
as not referring to religions rites, but to something that God had never revealed before,
as in the many mysteries Paul reveals in the NT.