Baptism symbol only ?

mailmandan · Oct 6, 2014

Context. In James 2:14, we read of one who "says he has faith" but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. James 2:18 - I will show you my faith by my works. Show, not establish. Big difference! You continue to quote "faith without works is dead" as if this means that a dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith as if the works themselves are the actual source of life for faith. That is like saying that a dead tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree and the fruit is the source of life for the tree. This is a major stumbling block for you.

The scripture says he who BELIEVES in Him shall not perish, is not condemned, has everlasting life, is justified from all things, receives remission of sins (John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39 etc..). Surely, if he who believes in Him is not condemned, then he who believes and is baptized shall be eternally saved as well, yet it's the lack of belief that causes condemnation, not the lack of baptism. Just ask the thief on the cross.

Believing in Christ is trusting exclusively in Him for salvation. Doing everything He said to do afterwards (get water baptized, observe all things He has commanded) are acts of obedience/works. You still cannot grasp the difference between faith and works which explains why you believe/trust in works for salvation and do not believe/trust exclusively in Christ.

Your trust and reliance is in baptism and other works and not exclusively in Christ. Jesus NEVER said whoever is not baptized will be condemned, but He did say whoever does not believe is condemned already (John 3:18). We are saved by grace through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). We are saved FOR good works, not by good works. You continue to put the cart before the horse and teach salvation by works.

newbirth · Oct 6, 2014

mailmandan said:

Context.

my friend James never mention anything about "genuine faith" or "bare profession of faith" .....he says faith without works is dead...which leads me to think he is speaking to believers....they have faith ...they believe ...but no works...there is no mention of living faith...the same way you say in Mk 16 ...there is no mention of baptism ,for those who do not believe.....there is no mention of a tree or fruits either...

He does not mention lack of faith....he said faith(which indicate they believe) without works(which indicate they do nothing in faith) is dead....

believing in Christ is doing what he says to do for salvation .....through faith....don't say I cannot grasp the difference between faith and works....James just told us faith without works is dead...I agree with him ...it is you who do not agree with him...You say I trust in works because of this...and all I did is trust Christ and agree with James

you condemn me because I choose to obey Christ and You because see my faith by my works you I teach salvation by works....we are saved by grace through faith.......show your faith without works

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?....mailmandan says it can...

mailmandan · Oct 7, 2014

newbirth said:

I never said "that" kind of faith can save him. You misunderstand this verse because you fail to observe two significant facts. First, James does not state that the hypothetical person actually "has" faith, but merely says or claims he has faith. It distinguishes the one who possesses from the one who "merely professes." Secondly, conclusions are based on the question, can that faith save him? James is not talking about genuine faith that is evidenced by producing works, but that type of faith which makes claims without producing any works to validate the claim. So that faith is faith that the man claims to have but demonstrates otherwise by his lack of works. We show our faith by our works. No works demonstrate a bogus claim. Where is the evidence of the claim? Show me the fruit.

Again, James does not state that the hypothetical person actually "has" faith, but merely says or claims he has faith. It distinguishes the one who possesses from the one who "merely professes." Dead faith is not genuine faith. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

SAYS or CLAIMS he has faith but has no works (James 2:14) demonstrates a bare/empty profession of faith. That person's profession is without possession, which equates to bare profession of faith. The Greek particle at the beginning of the next question (can that faith save him) shows that James expects a negative answer. If someone says or claims he has faith but lacks the resulting evidential works, then their profession is without possession. Plain and simple.

Has someone with dead faith been made alive together with Christ and been saved by grace through faith? (Ephesians 2:5-8). Obviously not. The opposite of without works is with works. The opposite of dead faith is living faith.

James is addressing this question to believers "What use is it, my brethren." But the hypothetical person who says or claims he has faith but lacks the resulting evidential works to validate their claim is not a genuine believer.

That is an oxymoron. Where did you come up with that? James said the hypothetical person SAYS or CLAIMS to have faith but has no works. James did not say he actually has faith or he believes. This is not difficult to understand.

What is the opposite of dead faith? Do those who are truly born again have dead faith? Did Paul and James have dead faith or living faith? Does made alive together with Christ/saved by grace through faith equate to dead faith or living faith?

In Mark 16:16, there is no mention of "he who is not baptized will be condemned."

But he who "does not believe will be condemned."

I borrowed that analogy from Jesus. He uses trees and fruit in His message.

Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

Matthew 7:18 - A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

Matthew 7:19 - Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 12:33 - Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.

So what does "good tree" represent? What does "good fruit" represent? What does "bad tree" represent? What does "bad tree" represent?

Now answer these questions:

Does a dead faith produce works in order to become a living faith or BECAUSE it's a living faith?

Does a dead tree produce fruit in order to become a living tree or BECAUSE it's a living tree?

newbirth · Oct 8, 2014

mailmandan said:

you keep twisting the word to make it mean what you want it to mean...James is not questioning what the man says ...he is questioning what the man does...
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

you want to say faith produces and dead faith does not produce that is doctrine of man...scripture does not teach that...It is you who have to do the work of faith ....

Atwood · Oct 8, 2014

Faith/belief is the one & only thing required of man for salvation. This is repeated so many times that it won't even fit in one post. Now water baptism does symbolize the death, entombment, & resurrection of Christ. But it cannot be the reality of salvation, for that is only by faith.

Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith,

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the expectation of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ,

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

the righteousness which is from God by faith:

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

newbirth · Oct 8, 2014

Atwood said:

Faith/belief is the one & only thing required of man for salvation. This is repeated so many times that it won't even fit in one post. Now water baptism does symbolize the death, entombment, & resurrection of Christ. But it cannot be the reality of salvation, for that is only by faith.

Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith,

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the expectation of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ,

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

the righteousness which is from God by faith:

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

show your faith without works....show how you were saved by doing absolutely nothing through faith without works....

PACEMAKER · Oct 9, 2014

Newbirth, Why would you Think an Outward Expression
a Person Does like "water baptism"

Could make a Difference to God

About your moment of your Repentance

Because HE Already Knows your Heart..

[SUP]Luke 16:15
[/SUP]Jesus said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves
in the eyes of others,
but God knows your HEARTS

What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.

Newbirth
So, are you the one valuing highly "water baptism"
As a Requirement for ones Salvation??

Atwood · Oct 9, 2014

newbirth said:

Grace by God & Faith by Man > Salvation > Works
Not Works > Salvation.
"All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."
"There is none that does good, no not one."

Time after time, salvation only requires belief/faith/trust on man's part.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER!]

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one

[NO WORKS, NO WATER!]

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER!]

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER!]

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER!]

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER!]

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

[NO WORKS, NO WATER!]

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

[NO WATER, NO WORKS, NO BOASTING!]
(ESCAPE FROM THE TOASTING!)

newbirth · Oct 9, 2014

Atwood said:

that is the very reason James said faith without works is dead.....everyone in Heb 11 faith had works(not works of the law) You believe Christ but you don't believe you have to do his words....that is just an empty profession of faith

mailmandan · Oct 9, 2014

newbirth said:

It truly amazes me to see how everything that I explained to you in post #541 and #543 just went right over your head!

James is questioning what the man says/claims, yet does not back up his claim by what he does (James 2:14).

James is not teaching that we are saved by works, as you believe. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works.

Made perfect or completed by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean he was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the alter and demonstrated the reality of his faith in Genesis 22.

James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous". Once again, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Matthew 7:17 - In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. That is not a doctrine of man. Something that is dead does not produce good works. It takes a living faith to produce good works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

Works flow out of faith. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of our faith. Not a dead faith, but a living faith, made alive together with Christ by grace we have been saved through faith, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. You continue to read these passages of scripture through the lens of works salvation. You need a new set of bifocals.

newbirth · Oct 9, 2014

mailmandan said:

Why would James question what the man says when it is already said? is it a bad thing for a man to say he has faith? If you say you have faith just know that faith without works is dead

just because you say I believe something does not make it truth...James is teaching faith without works is dead...which is what you are struggling with...you want a faith without works...

James is asking two question and he gives two answers vs 21 is answered by vs 23 and vs 22 by vs 24...feel free to tell him he does not know what he is saying.....

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

so now you are calling James a liar???? vs 23 clear states .......[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

you are just babbling here....shown to be righteous..."accounted as righteous" God is the one who looks at us that way...your words cannot change that.... it comes by works of faith...

same as faith without works is dead

you quote a scripture then ...babble....we do things by faith....faith does not do things by us...

.
here you are again...babbling...we do things by faith....you are saying faith does things by us (Works flow out of faith) if works flow out of faith then James wasted his time writing that epistle...because there would be no "faith without works is dead".....in other word all faith would have works flowing out of them

show your faith without works

Atwood · Oct 9, 2014

newbirth said:

NewB, it is faith, then salvation, then works. Why go on?

Salvation is offered time & time again, without any water or works or any waterworks (unless you are playing Monopoly).

Ephesians 2
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one should boast.

[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

[NO WATER, NO WORKS]

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

[NO WATER, NO WORKS]

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

[NO WATER, NO WORKS]

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[NO WATER, NO WORKS]

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

[NO WATER, NO WORKS]

Atwood · Oct 10, 2014

Calling all self-righteous fakers, ye sinners claiming to be holy shmoely.

What will you do at the Great White Throne Judgment since you have

neither faith nor good works?

No fruit, but a bunch of fig-leaves?

What do you have to gain by going on despising the grace of God so you can pretend you are righteous?

For by grace you have been saved through faith.
(that is, if indeed you are saved)

No Water, No Works.

PACEMAKER · Oct 10, 2014

newbirth said:

Newbirth, the book of James is Written to people
that are ALREADY Christians

And of coarse works are Important to Believers

You are taking Scriptures out of context to Try to prove your point about works.

The Point that we are discussing is;

How and when is the Point at which is a Person Saved

So, does a person have to clean their Act Up
Before they can be Saved ???

So, does a person have to do "good works"
Before God says;
O' you are doing "good works"
You are Saved???

If water baptism is necessary, then that a person is damned to hell even though he trusted in Christ, even though he trusted in the sacrifice of Christ, even though he by faith received Christ.

He would be damned to hell because he did not participate in the human ritual of “water baptism”.
He would be damned to hell because he would not be justified by faith,

but by faith and the ritual of “water baptism”

If a person is at your home
and you share the "gospel' with them

They ask and Trust Christ to forgive them of their sins

And ask Christ to be the Lord of their New Life with HIM

Then you tell them that their Salvation

is NOT COMPLETE UNTIL they are "water baptized"

for the forgiveness of their sins....

They follow you in their car and on the way to get "water baptized"

Someone runs a red light and t bones their car and everyone in the car dies Instantly

Question???

Even though they were on their way to get "water baptized"

BUT did Not make the human ritual.

Will that person be Saved ???

mailmandan · Oct 10, 2014

newbirth said:

I will show you my faith by my works. I see that everything I explained to you in post #550 went right over your head as well. There is a reason for you only hearing babble when I explained the truth to you. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14). You just DON'T GET IT and unfortunately, you seem to be thoroughly confused and unreachable.

newbirth · Oct 10, 2014

PACEMAKER said:

Newbirth, the book of James is Written to people
that are ALREADY Christians

And of coarse works are Important to Believers

You are taking Scriptures out of context to Try to prove your point about works.

The Point that we are discussing is;

How and when is the Point at which is a Person Saved

So, does a person have to clean their Act Up
Before they can be Saved ???

So, does a person have to do "good works"
Before God says;
O' you are doing "good works"
You are Saved???

If water baptism is necessary, then that a person is damned to hell even though he trusted in Christ, even though he trusted in the sacrifice of Christ, even though he by faith received Christ.

He would be damned to hell because he did not participate in the human ritual of “water baptism”.
He would be damned to hell because he would not be justified by faith,

but by faith and the ritual of “water baptism”

If a person is at your home
and you share the "gospel' with them

They ask and Trust Christ to forgive them of their sins

And ask Christ to be the Lord of their New Life with HIM

Then you tell them that their Salvation

is NOT COMPLETE UNTIL they are "water baptized"

for the forgiveness of their sins....

They follow you in their car and on the way to get "water baptized"

Someone runs a red light and t bones their car and everyone in the car dies Instantly

Question???

Even though they were on their way to get "water baptized"

BUT did Not make the human ritual.

Will that person be Saved ???

Your statement proves you do not believe God can keep that which is committed unto him....Your statement proves you do not believe you must obey the word of God...your statement proves you want to tell God how to do his work....

Apostol2013 · Oct 10, 2014

mailmandan said:

Context. In James 2:14, we read of one who "says he has faith" but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. James 2:18 - I will show you my faith by my works. Show, not establish. Big difference! You continue to quote "faith without works is dead" as if this means that a dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith as if the works themselves are the actual source of life for faith. That is like saying that a dead tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree and the fruit is the source of life for the tree. This is a major stumbling block for you.

The scripture says he who BELIEVES in Him shall not perish, is not condemned, has everlasting life, is justified from all things, receives remission of sins (John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39 etc..). Surely, if he who believes in Him is not condemned, then he who believes and is baptized shall be eternally saved as well, yet it's the lack of belief that causes condemnation, not the lack of baptism. Just ask the thief on the cross.

Believing in Christ is trusting exclusively in Him for salvation. Doing everything He said to do afterwards (get water baptized, observe all things He has commanded) are acts of obedience/works. You still cannot grasp the difference between faith and works which explains why you believe/trust in works for salvation and do not believe/trust exclusively in Christ.

Your trust and reliance is in baptism and other works and not exclusively in Christ. Jesus NEVER said whoever is not baptized will be condemned, but He did say whoever does not believe is condemned already (John 3:18). We are saved by grace through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). We are saved FOR good works, not by good works. You continue to put the cart before the horse and teach salvation by works.

It is not about the works but about obedience but obediwnce cannot come without faith , because true faith will produce fruits , this is not a works based but the good works are the vestments of a true faith in God for it is written to be furnished unto all good works it is also written that no man can please God without faith and true faith will bring obedience in all that Jesus says

PACEMAKER · Oct 11, 2014

newbirth said:

Newbirth; again you apparently do Not have an Answer... to my Statement

[h=1]Matthew 7 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h] [h=3]Do Not Judge[/h]7 “Do not judge, so that you won’t be judged. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For with the judgment you use,[SUP][a][/SUP] you will be judged, and with the measure you use,[SUP][b][/SUP] it will be measured to you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye but don’t notice the log in your own eye? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and look, there’s a log in your eye? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Hypocrite! First take the log out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

Just give your Honest answer on what you you believe about this statement below
or are you going to Judge me ?? Again

If a person is at your home
and you share the "gospel' with them

They ask and Trust Christ to forgive them of their sins

And ask Christ to be the Lord of their New Life with HIM

Then you tell them that their Salvation

is NOT COMPLETE UNTIL they are "water baptized"

for the forgiveness of their sins....

They follow you in their car and on the way to get "water baptized"

Someone runs a red light and t bones their car and everyone in the car dies Instantly

Question???

Even though they were on their way to get "water baptized"

BUT did Not make the human ritual.

Will that person be Saved ???

Scriptures will give you the Correct Answer IF you will read them as they are written

Just give an Honest Effort to reading the previous Post that contradict your belief about water baptism

newbirth · Oct 11, 2014

PACEMAKER said:

the scripture warns about foolish questions....
Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

you ask the question not because you wish to know if those in the car are saved but to prove that the word of God is not true Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

...therefore you do not understand the power of God...nor of obedience which begins in the heart and ends in the action...but that does not say we must not do what we are commanded....Just what James was saying...what good is it if you see one hungry you are genuinely concerned for the person so you pray that God bless them. Yet you possess that which they need in your cupboards and do not share...
So what you are saying is ...(1)he that believes and is baptised shall be saved and(2) he that believes and is not baptised shall be saved...and I am saying (2) is faith without works....not someone who has purposed in their heart to be baptised but one who has purposed in their heart not to be baptised....

PACEMAKER · Oct 11, 2014

newbirth said:

Newbirth, Again you are Judging me with your answer and comments
Again you are trying to answer my Question to you
With another Question

But it was a Yes or No ONLY answer..

I will answer your Question about 1, 2, 2 (?) statement when you clarify your statements
and answer my Question Below.

You said "...therefore you do not understand the power of God...nor of obedience which begins in the heart and ends in the action.."

Newbirth, If God Knows your Heart..
Then why do you think that you need to Preform the ritual of "water baptism"
for Salvation ??

Do you Understand the Power of Gods GRACE AND MERCY ???

Is their Power in the Water that one is "water baptized"??

Could you please tell me what I need to BELIEVE about JESUS CHRIST ?

Baptism symbol only ?

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