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Sounds like we agree on most of the points I talked about and I am sure while the fire is burning there will be a lot of gnashing and weeping going on.
I would think that if people reject the gift of salvation that it would go without saying that they had rejected the Holy Spirit. I agree that the punishment is eternal non-existence.
How do you get around the verse in Malachi 4:3 Where it plainly states that the wicked will be ashes under the soles of your feet. Don't usually have ashes until the fire goes out.
I am not so sure that I asked the question that you said I asked, but the a saved person wouldn't go to hell would be because they accepted the free gift of salvation that Jesus offers to all. It's a choice and everyone on earth has that choice. Accept the gift and live or reject the gift and die.
As to the people that might not have heard about God - our God is a very just God and He is the one doing the judging of those souls and I will leave that in His capable hands. Mine is not to question why mine is but to do or die.
I would think that if people reject the gift of salvation that it would go without saying that they had rejected the Holy Spirit. I agree that the punishment is eternal non-existence.
How do you get around the verse in Malachi 4:3 Where it plainly states that the wicked will be ashes under the soles of your feet. Don't usually have ashes until the fire goes out.
I am not so sure that I asked the question that you said I asked, but the a saved person wouldn't go to hell would be because they accepted the free gift of salvation that Jesus offers to all. It's a choice and everyone on earth has that choice. Accept the gift and live or reject the gift and die.
As to the people that might not have heard about God - our God is a very just God and He is the one doing the judging of those souls and I will leave that in His capable hands. Mine is not to question why mine is but to do or die.
The Bible does not teach eternal non-existence but eternal torment.
[h=1]Revelation 14:10-11New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]10 [/SUP]they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
[h=1]Revelation 20:10New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]10 [/SUP]And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[h=1]Revelation 14:10-11New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]10 [/SUP]they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
[h=1]Revelation 20:10New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]10 [/SUP]And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
True Christians base their doctrine on the Bible and not on man. The basic tenets of the Christian faith have been around for centuries and confirmed by the council. Any heresy and false cult system can be easily debunked with the scriptures. The problem is that man would rather follow man and belong to a group than follow God and stand for truth.
If the punishment is eternal non-existence then why do you think that Christ said this? It really wouldn't matter would it if you cease to exist?
[h=1]Matthew 5:29-30New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]29 [/SUP]If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
[h=1]Matthew 5:29-30New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]29 [/SUP]If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Christ disagrees with you as per the scriptures. Scriptures are very clear on this.
[h=1]Matthew 25:41New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]41 [/SUP]“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
[h=1]Jude 1:6-7New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]6 [/SUP]And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. [SUP]7 [/SUP]In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
[h=1]Matthew 25:41New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]41 [/SUP]“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
[h=1]Jude 1:6-7New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]6 [/SUP]And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. [SUP]7 [/SUP]In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
No, it is a cult and false gospel. And accursed is anyone who proclaims a false gospel message.
Is your salvation based on keeping the Sabbath? The Bible clearly teaches that if you go back under the law then you forfeit grace. Christ is the Sabbath. We rest in him.
They also claim that Sunday worship will damn you to Hell and is the Mark of the Beast. That is not what the Bible says. Sunday is the Lord's Day because of the resurrection and the Bible shows that the believer's assembled on that day.
[h=1]Galatians 3:9-11New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]9 [/SUP]So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[SUP][b]
[/SUP][h=1]Galatians 3:23-24New International Version (NIV)[/h] [h=3]Children of God[/h][SUP]23 [/SUP]Before the coming of this faith,[SUP][a][/SUP] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
[h=1]Galatians 4:21-28New International Version (NIV)[/h] [h=3]Hagar and Sarah[/h][SUP]21 [/SUP]Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? [SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written:
“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.
Is your salvation based on keeping the Sabbath? The Bible clearly teaches that if you go back under the law then you forfeit grace. Christ is the Sabbath. We rest in him.
They also claim that Sunday worship will damn you to Hell and is the Mark of the Beast. That is not what the Bible says. Sunday is the Lord's Day because of the resurrection and the Bible shows that the believer's assembled on that day.
[h=1]Galatians 3:9-11New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]9 [/SUP]So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[SUP][b]
[/SUP][h=1]Galatians 3:23-24New International Version (NIV)[/h] [h=3]Children of God[/h][SUP]23 [/SUP]Before the coming of this faith,[SUP][a][/SUP] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
[h=1]Galatians 4:21-28New International Version (NIV)[/h] [h=3]Hagar and Sarah[/h][SUP]21 [/SUP]Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? [SUP]22 [/SUP]For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For it is written:
“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.
The rich man was suffering in Hades. A place of torment. A holding zone. Then hades will be thrown into Hell, the Lake of Fire, the place of eternal torment.
[h=1]Luke 16:22-24New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]22 [/SUP]“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. [SUP]23 [/SUP]In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
[h=1]Revelation 20:12-15New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. [SUP]13 [/SUP]The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
[h=1]Luke 16:22-24New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]22 [/SUP]“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. [SUP]23 [/SUP]In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
[h=1]Revelation 20:12-15New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. [SUP]13 [/SUP]The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
The world is full of opposites. Cold and hot. High and low. Sick and well. Black and white. Love and hate. Good and evil. And last of all but not least eternal life and eternal damnation.
Christ clearly taught that Hell is eternal torment other wise he would not have mentioned that it is better than in the Gospels. If annihilation is true then it wouldn't matter how you are thrown into Hell because your torment would come to an end. The other thing is how can you punish something that ceases to exist? These people are not thinking logically about this. They just can't accept the reality of Hell because they are thinking in terms of humanity and not divinity.
Christ clearly taught that Hell is eternal torment other wise he would not have mentioned that it is better than in the Gospels. If annihilation is true then it wouldn't matter how you are thrown into Hell because your torment would come to an end. The other thing is how can you punish something that ceases to exist? These people are not thinking logically about this. They just can't accept the reality of Hell because they are thinking in terms of humanity and not divinity.
J
The question that is always begged to ponder is, if many false doctrines that contradict holy scriptures stand with those which adhere to cults, and many of these up in years, has the Holy Spirit failed to guide them into truth? Eyes that continue not to see, ears that continue not to hear? How is this?
The beginning of knowledge is fear of God. You have to want to seek truth to find it. Christianity is based on Christ and not on man. We have the scriptures for a reason. The scriptures attest to the existence of God as does the creation. The scriptures show and tell who Christ is. The Holy Spirit inspired the Word of God so the scriptures are the test of all doctrines.
This is why the Berean's were commended for testing all teachings against the scriptures to see if what Paul was teaching them was true. If people are going to test what the Apostle Paul is teaching, considering he is the last apostle and saw the resurrected Christ, then how more so any mere man who is part of a religious organization.
The main problem is that people base their theology on what they think or on what they see or on what they feel. Doctrine is not based on feelings or man's heart because man's heart cannot be trusted. This is also why the Bible warns that people will not endure sound doctrine but want to hear what they want to hear as in itchy ears so they will gather teachers that will give them what they want which is not necessarily what they need.
The problem lies in man and his fallen nature. I would think if you are a true believer in Christ and indwelt with the Holy Spirit which is the spirit of truth that you would not be led into deception. Not everyone that claims to be a Christian is a Christian.
[h=1]Acts 17:11New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]11 [/SUP]Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
[h=1]2 Timothy 3:14-16New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]14 [/SUP]But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, [SUP]15 [/SUP]and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [SUP]16 [/SUP]All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
[h=1]2 Timothy 4:2-4New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]2 [/SUP]Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
This is why the Berean's were commended for testing all teachings against the scriptures to see if what Paul was teaching them was true. If people are going to test what the Apostle Paul is teaching, considering he is the last apostle and saw the resurrected Christ, then how more so any mere man who is part of a religious organization.
The main problem is that people base their theology on what they think or on what they see or on what they feel. Doctrine is not based on feelings or man's heart because man's heart cannot be trusted. This is also why the Bible warns that people will not endure sound doctrine but want to hear what they want to hear as in itchy ears so they will gather teachers that will give them what they want which is not necessarily what they need.
The problem lies in man and his fallen nature. I would think if you are a true believer in Christ and indwelt with the Holy Spirit which is the spirit of truth that you would not be led into deception. Not everyone that claims to be a Christian is a Christian.
[h=1]Acts 17:11New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]11 [/SUP]Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
[h=1]2 Timothy 3:14-16New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]14 [/SUP]But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, [SUP]15 [/SUP]and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [SUP]16 [/SUP]All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
[h=1]2 Timothy 4:2-4New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]2 [/SUP]Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
J
As to these doctrines of man, I know I have no doctrine of myself, just a few speculative items I'd always express as such, if I did, rather base faith on the word of God. A few things I can't say I personally like in the Bible, thinking as a man, but, nonetheless, they are truths. Jesus Christ is everything, not man, looking any other direction sheer folly and creature hubris. The Bible is the truth, not sinful false prophets, who always misdirect eyes from our Lord Jesus to the workings of man and institutional enslavement. This is very wrong, condemned in New Testament Christianity.
A
The work and person of Jesus christ is sufficient to draw and to save. There is nothing more to add and yet people want more because truly the dont want Him. They follow people who call themselves prophetic and yet every prophecy has been false and the gospel they preach is not of the bible.
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