Is there such a thing as an atheist?

[jkalyna]

When one becomes convinced of the existence of God and rejects Him, then one chooses hell. Never forget that. When you reach the point where you can no longer deny His existence, then you are making a choice.


Given my pm any further thought?

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[Percepi]

When one becomes convinced of the existence of God and rejects Him, then one chooses hell.

Hypothetically speaking, what if Allah is real and you find yourself burning in hell for all eternity for worshiping Yahweh? Did you choose hell? No, you tried to choose heaven.

Atheists don't make a choice. They don't choose heaven or hell because they believe in neither. Our disagreement lies with what it means to actually "choose" something. Clearly, your definition differs from ours. But your definition of choice is used to justify the punishment of nonbelievers. It's easy to paint God as all loving when it's not his fault most people burn in hell for all eternity, because those who burn chose it. But that's not how choice works. Nobody chooses to suffer for all eternity. Nobody says, "You know what, I'd rather suffer in hell than be happy for the rest of existence." Your definition of choice implies people WANT to burn for all eternity.

Even if you argue one can choose something they don't want, the argument falls flat. Your use of the word choice would make the following statement true. "Jennifer chose not to use a condom, therefore she chose to get pregnant", even when Jennifer didn't want to get pregnant but was too anxious to have sex to worry about protection. This use of the word choice I dislike, but if this is the version you're using, then you still have to admit that people who "choose" hell without actually wanting to go to hell are being punished for being ignorant.

And that's the problem. You want to make it sound like people choose hell, so when they burn God can't be blamed. But if people burn in hell for rejecting God, they burn for being ignorant regardless of how you use the word "chocie"

 

[Cycel]

Hypothetically speaking, what if Allah is real and you find yourself burning in hell for all eternity for worshiping Yahweh? Did you choose hell? No, you tried to choose heaven.

Atheists don't make a choice. They don't choose heaven or hell because they believe in neither.

Hi Percepi, I messed up some quotes. It was actually Phil that said atheists choose to go to Hell.

 

[Cycel]

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Hi Jkalyna, not sure what your @ symbol represents in this context, but thought I should point out that I messed up some quotes and it was actually Phil, not myself, who said "When one becomes convinced of the existence of God and rejects Him, then one chooses hell. Never forget that. When you reach the point where you can no longer deny His existence, then you are making a choice." I disagree with him.

 

[nl]

The well-known Hallelujah chorus from Handel's Messiah provides prophecy that remains for future fulfillment:

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[SIZE=+1](44) Hallelujah[/SIZE]
Revelation 19:6​

6. Hallelujah! for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Revelation 11:15 15. . . the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ: and He shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 19:16 16. . . . KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS.[/TD]
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Link: Worship Map Lyrics:Handel's Messiah (text)

 

[Cycel]

Oh, wait a minute. I wonder if it wasn't me. Are quotes getting messed up somehow?

 

[Cycel]

Who has the right to determine what is right and what is wrong?

Elected officials, guided by public discourse, I think, would be the answer. There are no traffic laws in scripture to guide us. Are there labour laws regarding children in the Bible? Oh wait, children according to the Old Testament can be slaves.

 

[phil112]

Hi Jkalyna, not sure what your @ symbol represents in this context, but thought I should point out that I messed up some quotes and it was actually Phil, not myself, who said "When one becomes convinced of the existence of God and rejects Him, then one chooses hell. Never forget that. When you reach the point where you can no longer deny His existence, then you are making a choice." I disagree with him.

What? That doesn't fit the view I have of you. I believe that you believe there is no God.
Are you saying that if you received credible proof of God's existence you aren't rejecting Him? If He is, then His word is truth. If there is a God, then what we know is true, in that there are two paths, heaven or hell, meaning which path we take would be up to us.

 

[nl]

Classic and enduring composition...great performance...

[video=youtube_share;IUZEtVbJT5c]http://youtu.be/IUZEtVbJT5c[/video]

The Kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of God and Christ.

...He shall reign forever and ever.

 

[oldhermit]

I also made this connection, which is why at age sixteen I sought God through faith. I turned to the Bible and prayer. In the end God never revealed himself and I came to the conclusion that I must have been wrong to believe.

Why were you expecting God to reveal himself to you? You cannot have faith on your own terms. It is not man's place to set the parameters by which he will believe. This is what the Pharisees did and Jesus refused then to accommodate their demands. You should have learned this lesson from the gospels. Faith can only be attained on God's terms, not yours.

No, no, no. This is wrong.

"They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden... and hid themselves.... He (Adam) said, 'I heard the sound of you in the garden, and was afraid....' "

Both, Adam and Eve, clearly were familiar with God. God was not invisible to them. They had knowledge of him based upon direct contact and communication. God could do the same thing now if he wished, if he existed. It is wrong to state that in the story of Adam and Eve those two literary characters had to rely solely on their faith. Think about it. Without a Bible or any cultural heritage how would they even be aware of God unless he communicated directly with them? No, those two had direct knowledge. Even the snake knew, during his one recorded chat with Eve that God had been talking with herself and her husband. Perhaps he had listened from the bushes?

I agree, but Adam and Even did not require faith. They had direct knowledge of Him.

You are totally missing the point here Cycel. Yes, Adam and Eve had an experiential knowledge of the reality of God. It was the other things connected with the tree that they had no experiential knowledge of that required faith in what God had said regarding forbidden things. This is where their faith failed.

Spoken by a man who rejects the things he can see in favour of that which is invisible.

You are assuming that the natural world tells us all the truth about reality. It does not.

The righteous live by faith because they have no other choice. In the absence of evidence what else are they to do?

Yes, they have a choice. They can reject faith just as you did. When this happens they cease to be righteous.

 

[oldhermit]

Elected officials, guided by public discourse, I think, would be the answer. There are no traffic laws in scripture to guide us. Are there labour laws regarding children in the Bible? Oh wait, children according to the Old Testament can be slaves.

Is this the lesson we learn from Genesis 2 and 3 in mans encounter with the tree of knowledge?

 

[JimmieD]

Elected officials, guided by public discourse, I think, would be the answer.

So you would have morality be determined by elected officials? Surely even you believe and recognize that morality is something distinct from decisions made by elected officials, or even majority opinion? On your view, how could we label elected officials as corrupt? And would someome like Martin Luther King be immoral since he went against elected officials of his time? Is it the case that everyone who wants to change public policies has to first become immoral to do so? Not to mention to self defeating or circular nature of the statement in the first place: who determines the morality of the idea that the elected officials determine morality?

 

[oldhermit]

Elected officials, guided by public discourse, I think, would be the answer. There are no traffic laws in scripture to guide us. Are there labour laws regarding children in the Bible? Oh wait, children according to the Old Testament can be slaves.

What you are discussing here is ethics, not morality. These are two completely different things.

 

[Leannaix]

So after 140 pages i think it is pretty clear that atheists do indeed exist, and also obvious to me that there is a lot of misconception among some Christians what an athiest is, what they believe or don't believe, how they got to that point, etc. I suppose it's good that discussion like this clears some of that up.

 

[Cycel]

The Kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of God and Christ.

...He shall reign forever and ever.

Well, I don't expect that, but great music!

 

[Kerry]

I love you Cycel.

 

[Cycel]

Elected officials, guided by public discourse, I think, would be the answer. There are no traffic laws in scripture to guide us. Are there labour laws regarding children in the Bible? Oh wait, children according to the Old Testament can be slaves.

What you are discussing here is ethics, not morality. These are two completely different things.

So keeping children as slaves is unethical but not immoral; or is the practice immoral but not unethical? I suspect your motivation is to escape the obvious immorality of an unethical biblical practice?

 

[Kerry]

Cycel you do realize that all that profess to be christian are not and say ignorant things. In fact most of the posters here on CC have no Idea what it means to be a Christian. They are just saying what the speaker of their social group said before their yoga class.

 

[Cycel]

I love you Cycel.

Blush!!!!!

 

[Percepi]

Hi Percepi, I messed up some quotes. It was actually Phil that said atheists choose to go to Hell.

Woops. I knew Phil said it and I ended up messing up the quotes myself!

Are you saying that if you received credible proof of God's existence you aren't rejecting Him?

If Cycel doesn't view the proof to be credible, then no, he isn't choosing hell.

If there is a God, then what we know is true, in that there are two paths, heaven or hell, meaning which path we take would be up to us.

You see a rock on the ground and you pick it up. Out of nowhere, a snake bites you. It turns out, that rock was right next to a snake's nest. According to your logic, if you chose to pick up the rock, then you chose to get bit by the snake.

If heaven and hell are real, then there are two destinations. But if people don't believe heaven and hell are real and they end up in hell, it does not mean they chose hell, that's just where they ended up. Your definition of choice is so flawed that it can be used to argue, "Anything that happens to you, it was your choice."

Imagine a woman goes into a bar and has a single beer. It turns out, someone drugged her beer while she wasn't looking and she passes out. She wakes up to discover she was raped. She didn't think someone was going to drug and rape her at the bar, does this mean she chose to get raped? Because according to YOUR definition of the word "choice", she did.