To Fishbait - Reply to your comments.
My writing to you is not to prove to you that you are wrong or to point fingers. We are all here to learn the Truth about God and Jesus, as we all have an interest in Them and what will happen to us in future as we are all unsure of what the future holds in for us. I believe that we all did not come onto this site to deliberately cause friction and have verbal wars with each other but to learn the Truth which you hoped to find here. I do not believe that you have been on this site just to say your say and walk off without hearing whether your statements are in fact correct or not or have been accepted or not. This all indicates that you have the desire to learn and you are here to find the Truth, am I right or not?
Before you read any further, I want you to imagine that this is your first encounter with the Bible and forget for a moment everything that you have heard or read regarding this matter and start afresh. Be in a positive mode and do not let any negative thoughts come through your mind. Remember, this is your first encounter and please be honest to yourself about it.
The Bible is not a book on riddles and silly games. It is a book containing the Truth and it is not hidden. It is a book that has been compiled by normal people who searched through thousands of scriptures to find those scriptures that will point to the existence of God, how this earth and man etc have been created, how man was tricked by Satan, how God had a Salvation Plan in place to save man, how He will destroy the one who tricked His children and those who did not follow God as they should have, and what the results will be at the end of the day namely the saved on the new earth. The fact that men were involved in the compilation and translation of the Bible, certain errors did occur as no two people will translate a piece that is written in a symbol/picture type scripture, exactly the same. The translated piece however will convey the message but exactness will not always be the case. So, to do a study on any subject in the Bible, you need to refer to all the texts that relates to a subject and to study them intensely. Once you have gone through them all, you need to sit back and try to create the whole picture of what you have studied, to see if it gels with the rest of the Bible and if it is logical and it makes sense. If there are any unclear picture, it means that you have missed something somewhere and need to rethink the whole issue. It needs to make sense to you. It is the same as doing any mathematical problem where you have to find the solution. When you have found the solution, you must be able to see the value in the answer. If the value appears to be wrong, you need to redo the problem.
The Bible teaches us that he who believes that Jesus came in the flesh, that He is the Son of God and that He is the Christ, is from God and God will be within him and is born out of God. 1 Joh 4:2,15, 1 Joh 5:1.
God confirmed that Jesus is His Son. Luk 9:35, Mat 3:17, that He sent Him to this world Joh 17:3,21,23; 1 Joh 4:10; Joh 6:38
This simple example where the fact that Jesus, the Son of God, has been twisted to Jesus being God, has created so much other riddles or unresolved questions and it is not a matter that only one day we will find out what the real Truth is whilst we have the Truth right now.
I will now reply to your statements made regarding this subject.
I cannot agree with all the assumptions you made as it is quite clear that because the Bible did not say something, you assumed certain things, and where the Bible has quoted something, you would ignore it or you would just quote your ministers’ teaching trying to convince others about this subject. I have listed your statements with my comments. The sentences marked in blue are the statements you made and the red letters indicate your assumptions.
1. "Jesus did not create Himself. He is however, the first creation of God. Anything wrong with my statement?" Yes.
Your answer should be No. Jesus is the first creation of God. He was created by God in heaven, before the angels or anything else ie, creatures, were created. Col 1:15 This text indicates clearly that even before mankind and all living creatures on the earth, Jesus has been created as the first creation.
2. The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).
You cannot put your own words in the Bible and then make an assumption based on that. By you adding “God” to “I am”, you have created the opening of fraud. What if you replaced the word God with any other word ie. Satan, would you accept that as well? I doubt that and then to make an assumption on that statement? Remember also the translator’s role here. It could have been correct, incorrect or misinterpreted. It is also known that some of the translator’s own side notes or his own thoughts, became part of the Bible. When somebody asks you, who are you? You will start with your reply “I am”. Does that make you God, No.
When Jesus did say “I and the Father are one” does not mean that Jesus claimed to be God. He and God had the same ideas, thoughts and the same love for Their creation and that is what I believe, is meant here. Remember, God sent Jesus to this earth to reveal God. That is part of God’s Salvation Plan.
John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh.Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God! ………………….Jesus gave up His deityJoh 17:5e
Here again you have ignored the word “was” and replaced it with “is”. I agree that when God created Jesus Christ as the first born, He had all the same characteristics of God and was a God with God, ie the Word was with God and the Word was God. The word “was“ indicates past tense. It was the case but has now changed. Remember, God sent Jesus to reveal God and the only way that would work was to send Jesus, His Son, in the flesh, which is a lower form as God, which also then means that Jesus had to give up His deity status to become man on this earth. He could also sin as any other man on this earth and that is why Satan tried it with Jesus, but failed. Jesus knew what it was like to be with God and what He experienced and He knew what He will experience if He remains true to God. God has no blood but Jesus had, as He was man. Jesus was prepared to die for mankind to show His love to God and mankind, to take all the sins on His shoulders to give mankind a chance to be in heaven one day. If Jesus did not come to this earth, the existence of God etc will all still be just stories and fables and there will be no salvation for mankind.
3. Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God,” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.
Again, there are a few things to consider here ie translator’s interpretation of the original scriptures as explained above. The fact that Jesus has gone through the whole process of giving up His deity, becoming man and died on the cross for our sins, returning to God on the cloud and is now sitting on the right hand side of God, is a way to show mankind that God accepted that Jesus is His Son, also a God which He was before He came to earth, also a separate entity. It does not indicate that Jesus is God the Father and the Bible clearly refers to the “Son”. God knows what lays ahead for Jesus and He was already been given some powers back but He is still “man” on God’s right hand side.
4. In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.
Again, there are a few things to consider here ie translator’s interpretation of the original scriptures as explained above. The word “worship” is one of the meanings of the translated words. It could also mean, serve, bow down, kiss, venerate, to do, to make an idol, which immediately paints a whole different picture of the actual meaning. You can therefore not again assume that Jesus is God.
His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty.Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.
Again, your assumption causes a problem. As God is not of flesh but a Spirit, He cannot die, as He does not have blood and a heart. If Jesus is God, then the crucifixion was a bluff as the blood could not flow to wash the sins away but in this case there was blood which means that Jesus was man on the cross, the real thing, and that Satan will have NO factual evidence that Jesus was God on the cross and His death was a bluff to mankind. How does Satan work? He works through people/churches to deceive people as he has lost his battle to be part of the kingdom of God and he now focuses on God’s children to get them all on his side and the only way to do it is to plant the seed of deceiving or non-truth. His whole goal is to destroy God’s children and we have to very aware of this. Any negativity, deceiving, lies etc. are all works of Satan. Do not be fooled by him.
Here are some thoughts/questions how this one small change in teaching can cause so many problems, and you really need to sit and ponder about each question asked below:-
1. If God is Jesus Christ, why did He create Himself and sent Himself down to earth to reveal Himself to mankind. Could He not have done it Himself without creating another image of Himself and sending Himself to earth? Joh 8:42; Joh 17:3, 21,23 My questions sound weird? Yes, because that is the impression you are creating when you are saying that Jesus is God. Here are some more.
2. Why did God instruct Himself to go to earth to teach mankind about Himself and to reveal who Satan is? Joh 14:31
3. If God is Jesus Christ, why did He call Himself Son of God when He was baptized and said, this is My Son in whom I am pleased? How could He have spoken from heaven to Himself on earth in such a way that all the disciples and people heard Him? Mar 1:11
4. Why did God refer to Himself as His beloved Son on the mountain before some of the disciples? Mat 17:5
5. Why did God go down on His knees to pray to Himself in heaven just before His crucifixion, asking that He Himself remove the cup from Himself but that His own will be done? Luk 22:41-42
6. Why did God say to Himself, My God, My God, why has Thou forsaken me? Mat 27:46; Mar 15:34
7. Why would the Bible teach us to thank God for everything in the Name of Jesus Christ if He was God? Eph 5:20
8. Why did God say to the people that He came to preach to them the kingdom of Himself and that He was sent by Himself? Luk 4:43; Luk 8:1
9. Why did God say that He will sit on His own right hand side if He is one and the same? Luk 22:69; Heb 2:16-17; Heb 8:1; 1 Pet 3:22 He also sits as the High Priest. Heb 5:5; Heb 8:1
10. Why would God receive the Holy Spirit God from God or Himself? Joh 14:10; Joh 16:13-15
11. God did not exist as God until He has been exalted by Himself? Joh 7:39
12. There is one God and He is the Mediator between Himself and mankind? 1 Tim 2:5; Joh 14:6
13. Why did God resurrect Himself, that cannot die, but did, and why was it necessary if He was alive but also dead? Col 2:12; Act 13:30,33; Psm 2:7
14. Why did God say to Himself whoever does not honour God Himself does not honour God who sent Himself? Joh 5:23
15. Why would God send Himself to this earth to die for our sins? 1 Joh 4:10
16. Why does the Bible teach that God died on the cross as man, as God cannot die? 1 Tim 2:5; Luk 23:47; Mark 15:39
There are many more texts I can provide from the Bible that will sound ridiculous to say the least, to substitute Jesus with God and to say that They are one and the same entity as you have done. The Bible has been given to us to study the Word of God and it has been confirmed by many across the world that that is all we need to find the Truth. There are no uncertainties who Jesus Christ is and who God is. They are two individual entities and once you have that understanding and accept it, will you be able to explain the problems texts that you now have above. Some texts you may read to see that They are indeed two individual entities are Mat 27:54; Joh 1:9,34-37; 1 Cor 8:6, 1 Cor 3:23
If you still believe that Jesus is God the Father, then you need to explain every text listed above to prove that your teaching is correct.
Incidentally, the Bible teaches us that the one who does not believe that Jesus is the Christ, is the antichrist and a liar. 1 Joh 2:22. The Bible does not teach that the one who does not believe that Jesus is God, is the antichrist and a liar.
