Is there such a thing as an atheist?

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Aug 30, 2014
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The text clearly says that "fools say (in their hearts) that there is no god" rather than "Those who say (in their hearts) that there is no god are fools". However, it makes sense to consider it both ways. The text describes fools more explicitly than atheists.

Remembrance of god does not reside in their hearts. They may not claim to be atheists with their mouths. For many centuries, professed atheism was a rare position. If they once possessed any knowledge of god, these did not retain it for consideration in their hearts. The fool denied god in his (or her) heart and motives.

In the Proverbs 1, Solomon, that teacher upon wisdom, asserts that fools hate wisdom and instruction (v.7) and that fools hate knowledge (v.22).

I will give credit to the professing atheists here that they don't hate all knowledge.

But, what might be the motive for retaining no acknowledgment of God? God knows motives but it is possible that some don't want there to be a god. If God exists, that means that there could be potential consequences after death for sinfulness that encountered no consequences on earth.

At the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus commended the ones who would hear the saying of Jesus and do them as being like the wise man who built his house upon the rock. He added: "And every one who hears these sayings of mine and does them not shall be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand" (Matthew 7:26).

Earlier in the Sermon, Jesus had spoken the lines described as the "Beatitudes": Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God (Matthew 5:8). Exhortation: hear and do and you will see.

My observations here and elsewhere are that atheists can be very intelligent and disciplined. Some heart attitudes apparently do not consider God when pondering an action. Other heart attitudes fear God and behave accordingly. Heart attitudes can be expected to have an impact on morality. But, human hearts are impossible for all but God to know and understand accurately (Jeremiah 17:9). Emotions and intuitions can drive us. Sometimes, it is difficult to even understand ourselves.

The text of Psalm 14 is largely repeated with seemingly minor variations in Psalm 53. Mankind is generally depraved rather than generally good although many noble deeds do happen. There is none who does good as he or she should nor any who seek God as He ought to be sought.
Actually what it clearly says (what it literally says in the biblical quote i posted) is "The fool hath said in his heart. It is equally plausible that "the fool" is replacable with either 1) The specific group of people he is talking about. 2) Atheists. Imagine I am telling you about a man who believes that the sky is falling. I might say "The fool wears a helmet everytime he goes outside." This does not mean you could go around quoting me to say I think all people who wear helmets everyday are fools. I was specifically referring to the man I was telling you about.
Also, saying that "none do good, not one," would be different than saying all do bad. You can do one bad thing and the latter be applicable. But one good thing renders the former incorrect.

"What might be the motivation for retaining no acknowledgement of God?" For me it i the same motivation for not acknowledging Zeus, Odin, Jupiter, or any other God, aong with unicorns, Bigfoot, Nessie, and a cellestial teapot revolving aound earth between Mercury and Venus. I don't have any sufficient evidence to acknowledge these things as real.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Timeline said:
I find your comment (that I put in bold) very interesting. Do you really believe that? When do you suppose the first atheist happened along?
He's (Cycel) wrong as usual. I don't have time to correct the many false assertions atheists posting in this thread continue to make but obviously there were people in antiquity that shared their error. Diagoras of Melos (5th century BC) is the first in recorded history that I'm aware of.
You cannot state with any certainty that Diagoras was an atheist in the sense that we mean the word today. Remember that even Christians were designated atheists in antiquity. It means only that they held a view of God that was different from the official belief. None of Diagoras' writings have survived. We don't know why he was called an atheist. It may be he did not deny the existence of the gods at all. He may only have denied that paying them homage provided any earthly benefit, or it may be that he denied the official Athenian cult. We just don't know the reasons the charge was laid against him.

No, I am afraid it is not obvious at all that early in antiquity there was anyone whom we could truly call an atheist. There were no scientific explanations for where the world and life were derived. If there were no gods then there was no explanation for the origin of the universe. Furthermore, in antiquity the support of official cults was considered necessary to the well being of the state. Anyone who did not comply was designated an atheist. That is why Christians stood accused. Can you say for certain something similar was not going on with Diagoras? You cannot state with absolute certainty that he was an atheist as we use the term today.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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I don't know anyone who became an atheist for the rationale you've identified, but I wouldn't be surprised that this sometimes happens. What I've learned is that there are many reasons for losing belief in God.
Would any of your reasons include opposition to the teachings of Jesus?
No. Not if you are looking for an explanation as to why I stopped believing in the first place. Keep in mind I stopped believing at age sixteen. In my fifties and sixties I have come to believe that Christians hold a false view of the historical Jesus.
 

nl

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Jun 26, 2011
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...I don't have any sufficient evidence to acknowledge these things as real...
Where did your body come from? What is the source for the ground that you stand upon or the air that your breath or the water that you drink? Who made the oceans or the vast galaxies?

Magicians give the appearance of producing something from nothing. Do you believe in magic?
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
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Henry Bosch has pointed out the following instances of God’s careful and marvelous design:

The earth rotates on its axis at approximately 1000 miles per hour. If that had been 100 miles per hour, our days and nights would be ten times longer, and our planet would alternately burn and freeze. Under such circumstances vegetation could not live!

If the earth were as small as the moon, the power of gravity would be too weak to retain sufficient atmosphere for man’s needs; but if it were as large as Jupiter, Saturn, or Uranus, extreme gravitation would make human movement almost impossible. If we were as near to the sun as Venus, the heat would be unbearable; if we were as far away as Mars, we would experience snow and ice every night, even in the warmest regions. If the oceans were half their present dimensions, we would receive only one-fourth the rainfall we do now. If they were one-eighth larger, our annual precipitation would increase fourfold, and this earth would become a vast, uninhabitable swamp.

Water solidifies at 32 degrees above zero [°F]. It would be disastrous if the oceans froze at that temperature, however, for then the amount of thawing in the polar regions would not balance out, and ice would accumulate throughout the centuries! To prevent such a catastrophe, the Lord put salt in the sea to alter its freezing point.


Source: MacDonald, W. (1995). Believer’s Bible Commentary: Old and New Testaments. (A. Farstad, Ed.) (p. 563). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.- Comment on Psalm 14:1
The possibility that all this happened by chance is essentially non-existent or impossible.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Cool man, thanks for sharing. I was just curious if you did have them or not, and I guess you had the near death experience as well with the appendix....
Hey Jimbone, thanks for your response. The only thing I need to correct is the impression I seem to have given that I had an NDE. I did not. I simply meant that during the ordeal and the recovery period following it had not occurred to me to think of God, this despite the belief of some Christians that an encounter with ones mortality will necessarily bring an atheist back to God. :)
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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Hey Jimbone, thanks for your response. The only thing I need to correct is the impression I seem to have given that I had an NDE. I did not. I simply meant that during the ordeal and the recovery period following it had not occurred to me to think of God, this despite the belief of some Christians that an encounter with ones mortality will necessarily bring an atheist back to God. :)
Well thank you for your complete honesty, but I would still think there may have been a moment you may have thought it was a possibility. I was in a pretty bad motorcycle wreak, but I don't remember any of it and just woke up in the hospital a couple weeks later. I was never technically "near death" myself either, but I locked the brakes up for about 25 feet so I'm sure there was a at least a second or two I though I was going to die. LOL, but I know what you meant.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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The possibility that all this happened by chance is essentially non-existent or impossible.
... to a believer; but it is not proof.

Bosch wrote: "If the earth were as small as the moon, the power of gravity would be too weak to retain sufficient atmosphere for man’s needs...."

If Earth had been that small then we wouldn't be here to debate it, but so what? Our existence is not evidence we were created. It might be evidence that life will automatically arise on worlds that present the right conditions. We might find that life once existed on Mars, or that it does exist on Europa. When the James Webb telescope goes into operation we might uncover evidence that life possibly exists on other worlds beyond our solar system.

Nl, there are billions of planets in our galaxy. Do you imagine Earth is the only one that formed in a stable orbit with the proper conditions to support life? There may be star systems that have two such planets. Had Mars been larger it would have held onto its early atmosphere. There might, by chance, have been two earth-like worlds. Perhaps the fact that there is only one suitable planet in the solar system could be seen as evidence that there is no god.

The key is, that just by chance alone there are likely to be numerous planets similar to earth already in existence.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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Haha, no there was no panick about things I didn't understand. Once I realized that: not knowing something =/= "I know God did it", I simply looked for answers. If there are good explanations for things, I accept them as the most likely explanation. If I have no likely explanation, I don't freak out because I don't know. I just don't know, and maybe I'll find out later, maybe I never will. For example, at the time I realized I was an atheist, I did not accept evolution as the most likely explanation for diversity of life, simply because I didn't understand evolution well enough to either accept or reject it as true. But then I looked into it, saw overwhelming evidence, so now I do.
Yeah, that's pretty much how I was too. I only briefly freaked out about the Earth revolving around the sun, which only lasted about 2 or 3 minutes. I had to remind myself how gravity worked and how Earth has already been revolving around the sun for millions of years. The chances of it flinging off into space or into the sun in my lifetime are incredibly unlikely. : P

I'm glad you enjoyed listening to it though!
 
Sep 14, 2014
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It's all about chance. If I didn't toast that bread last night then in a day or two it would have had its own lifeform growing on it.

It was not my intention to prevent this life when I toasted it... Nor would it be my intention for life to grow on it if I didn't toast it.

Just one of those things lol.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Where did your body come from?
Every body on earth, whether plant or animal, has come from a long line of progenitors extending back to the first life forms on the planet. Where my body came from, or yours, is not a mystery. We have the answer. How the first life originated, now that is the question, isn't it. I fully expect biochemists with find the answer -- eventually. Stay tuned. :)

nl said:
What is the source for the ground that you stand upon or the air that your breath or the water that you drink? Who made the oceans or the vast galaxies?
I see the problem. You don't accept the science of astronomy. If you did you would know that we have the answers for this set of questions.

Do you see a problem inherent in the creation account? The stars and galaxies were created in a single day, yet the rest of the week God spent making the Earth? What's wrong with that picture? The galaxies as you said are vast. There are billions of them. Why did it take God only a day to make them, but the remainder of the week to make the Earth? I will tell you why. The author of Genesis didn't know the rest of the universe was there. The stars were just small lights attached to the firmament meant to give light to Earth at night when the moon wasn't visible. And as the it says in Revelation, they can be shaken loose and fall to the ground. That will be a sign in the End Times.

Do you believe in magic?
No, and neither do you. So why do you not accept the science?

Nl, I may not understand the cause of the Big Bang, if that indeed is how it all began, and I may not know yet how life originated, but star and planet formation is no mystery. The answers there seem obvious.
 
May 14, 2014
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No. Not if you are looking for an explanation as to why I stopped believing in the first place. Keep in mind I stopped believing at age sixteen. In my fifties and sixties I have come to believe that Christians hold a false view of the historical Jesus.
Thanks Cycel. From the posts of yours I've read it seems your disbelief in God comes from your study of science. I don't know how you view Jesus, but please consider that He wasn't a mad man who believed He was someone He was not or that He had a mission He did not.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
You cannot prove with any certainty that there were no materialist atheists in ancient history. However, in rebuttal, archeologists have found ancient tribes completely devoid of any religious artifacts whatsoever to metaphysical strains from Mahavira and Buddha to written evidences in the Greco-Roman era such as the elaborate critique of atheism in book 10 of Plato's Laws in which he asserts atheism is rife in Athens that they existed.

Which shouldn't come as a big surprise since the modern humans of antiquity certainly were able to reason and make metaphysical choices like us.

Now regarding the false charge of atheism to first and second century Christians by some, as Justin said in ‘The First Apology of Justin’ before Caesar:

“For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, they who did such things as these are gods, but assert that they are wicked and impious demons, whose actions will not bear comparison with those even of men desirous of virtue. Hence, are we (Christians) called atheists. And we confess that we are atheists, so far as gods of this sort are concerned, but not with respect to the most true God, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues, who is free from impurity.”

The Oxford Handbook of Atheism states, "There is, however, no evidence that the turbulence of the Jews was ever attributed to atheism, rather than to the bellicosity of their ancestral God."

Obviously Jews, Christians, and ancient pagans and atheists who took the time to learn what Christianity actually taught understood that Christians were NOT atheists though some first and second century Romans and Greeks didn't.

With respect to that ancient Roman era, as the Oxford Handbook of Atheism states, "In the four centuries down to the beginning of the Roman empire in 31 BCE, disbelief in the existence of gods was a recognizable if rare stance."

As for Diagoras, obviously it's not possible to interview him; however, Diagoras wrote a treatise under the title of apopyrgizontes logoi (literally, destructive considerations) in which he attacked the belief in the gods and stated that he lost his faith in them.



You cannot state with any certainty that Diagoras was an atheist in the sense that we mean the word today. Remember that even Christians were designated atheists in antiquity. It means only that they held a view of God that was different from the official belief. None of Diagoras' writings have survived. We don't know why he was called an atheist. It may be he did not deny the existence of the gods at all. He may only have denied that paying them homage provided any earthly benefit, or it may be that he denied the official Athenian cult. We just don't know the reasons the charge was laid against him.

No, I am afraid it is not obvious at all that early in antiquity there was anyone whom we could truly call an atheist. There were no scientific explanations for where the world and life were derived. If there were no gods then there was no explanation for the origin of the universe. Furthermore, in antiquity the support of official cults was considered necessary to the well being of the state. Anyone who did not comply was designated an atheist. That is why Christians stood accused. Can you say for certain something similar was not going on with Diagoras? You cannot state with absolute certainty that he was an atheist as we use the term today.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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Is there such a thing as an atheist?
according to Rom 1 : 18-24
in these passages states they are without excuse in context of having knowledge of Gods eternal power and the Godhead. there is no explanation one will be able to give in not acknowledging the existence of God. It is plain to see by His hand work through creation but that truth is held hostage by the lying of those who know but refuse to believe.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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No. Not if you are looking for an explanation as to why I stopped believing in the first place. Keep in mind I stopped believing at age sixteen. In my fifties and sixties I have come to believe that Christians hold a false view of the historical Jesus.
Only if the record of him is false.

Keeping in mind the record was written by eye witnesses.
 
Sep 14, 2014
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Only if the record of him is false.

Keeping in mind the record was written by eye witnesses.
As are a lot of records about Ghosts, Big Foot, Aliens and the Loch Ness Monster.

Why are the ones about Jesus any more or less reliable?
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
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Is there such a thing as an atheist?
according to Rom 1 : 18-24
in these passages states they are without excuse in context of having knowledge of Gods eternal power and the Godhead. there is no explanation one will be able to give in not acknowledging the existence of God. It is plain to see by His hand work through creation but that truth is held hostage by the lying of those who know but refuse to believe.
That is the declaration of that section of Romans 1...without excuse for not knowing.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Thanks Cycel. From the posts of yours I've read it seems your disbelief in God comes from your study of science.
I was simply responding to Nl's disinclination to accept what for me is an obvious scientific explanation for the origin of stars, planets, and all that goes with them. When I look back it was not science, I don't think, that was the source of my skepticism. I was quite willing to believe in God and accept all the claims of science, as does Francis Collins, for example. It was history that created the stumbling block. In particular the Old Testament stories of violence commanded by God and carried out with ravenous appetite by Jacob and others, which today reminds me of the actions of Islamic State, that drove the final nails in the coffin of my belief. It was the Bible itself that ended my belief in God for I could not rationalize that horror with what I thought was supposed to be a god of love. I decided that men simply carried out barbarous acts, and justified them with the religious assent of priests.

jdbear said:
I don't know how you view Jesus, but please consider that He wasn't a mad man who believed He was someone He was not or that He had a mission He did not.
Perhaps I can locate a YouTube video that will provide that insight. It's complicated. :)
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
Typo. Change "metaphysical strains from Mahavira and Buddha" to materialist strains from Mahavira and Buddha.