-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I said:
So, no, according to my logic there's plenty of reason to be skeptical.
I have started an investigation and have come up empty handed. Those who claim to have supernatural evidence have not proven the supernatural.
You just told me that I can't find supernatural evidence unless God grants me the ability to perceive supernatural evidence. Now you're telling me I need to investigate it as if it's something I need to find myself. So which is it? You're changing he goal posts on me.
I never said the supernatural can't exist. I said there's absolutely no way it could ever be proven. We live in a natural world. By definition, supernatural is something separate from the natural world. If we were to perceive something that's "supernatural", then it would actually be natural.
The problem is, people who make this claim are basing their "proof" off of personal feelings. It's like saying, "When I pray, I feel the spirit inside of me. It's supernatural." No, it's perfectly natural for one to feel such feelings inside when put in a certain state of mind. It's normal and doesn't require one to worship Yahweh. Many of the feelings people refer to, I've had myself. And looking back on it, they were all the result of my own emotions. The feelings were essentially the result of a placebo.
So, no, according to my logic there's plenty of reason to be skeptical.
I have started an investigation and have come up empty handed. Those who claim to have supernatural evidence have not proven the supernatural.
You just told me that I can't find supernatural evidence unless God grants me the ability to perceive supernatural evidence. Now you're telling me I need to investigate it as if it's something I need to find myself. So which is it? You're changing he goal posts on me.
I never said the supernatural can't exist. I said there's absolutely no way it could ever be proven. We live in a natural world. By definition, supernatural is something separate from the natural world. If we were to perceive something that's "supernatural", then it would actually be natural.
The problem is, people who make this claim are basing their "proof" off of personal feelings. It's like saying, "When I pray, I feel the spirit inside of me. It's supernatural." No, it's perfectly natural for one to feel such feelings inside when put in a certain state of mind. It's normal and doesn't require one to worship Yahweh. Many of the feelings people refer to, I've had myself. And looking back on it, they were all the result of my own emotions. The feelings were essentially the result of a placebo.
When you see a table of dominoes, everyone knows that someone set them up.
If you find a piece of paper or a golf ball or a tennis ball deep in the wilderness, then everyone knows that someone on the ground or in the sky was responsible for putting it there.
When the object becomes larger like a universe, the atheist suddenly concludes that no one put it there.
The atheist seems to allow this conclusion: Man created God.
The atheist seems to disallow this conclusion: God created man.
This seems like a biased prejudice to me where the atheist will only allow the conclusion that they wish for and want.
If you find a piece of paper or a golf ball or a tennis ball deep in the wilderness, then everyone knows that someone on the ground or in the sky was responsible for putting it there.
When the object becomes larger like a universe, the atheist suddenly concludes that no one put it there.
The atheist seems to allow this conclusion: Man created God.
The atheist seems to disallow this conclusion: God created man.
This seems like a biased prejudice to me where the atheist will only allow the conclusion that they wish for and want.
As I said before.. the person who put the golf ball there was created too, the person who put the tennis ball was there was also created as was the person who setup the dominoes.
But again you won't apply that to God.
So either follow your own argument and say God was created too... Or drop your own argument because its not consistent.
And Yeah we disallow the conclusion that God created man... Because we are atheists.
As for being prejudice... That part of your argument makes no sense whatsoever
But again you won't apply that to God.
So either follow your own argument and say God was created too... Or drop your own argument because its not consistent.
And Yeah we disallow the conclusion that God created man... Because we are atheists.
As for being prejudice... That part of your argument makes no sense whatsoever
Last edited:
Your analogy is only possible because you are contrasting things you know to be created (golf ball, dominoes) with natural things. If there is no way to distinnguish these things (they were all created) you would have nothing to contrast, so you would have no analogy to give. The only reason you could make this argument is because man-made things and natural things are observably different. It has nothing to do with the size of what we deem natural or man-made, but the qualities of these things. This isn't biased, just the only honest conclusion I can make.
The only "investigation I've heard you mention is looking for NATURAL evidence for the SUPERNATURAL. As smart as you claim to be this simple concept keeps flying over you logic meter. So you have prayed, went to mediums, tried all spiritual methods to contact the supernatural? I by no means would suggest that, but if you are talking about proving the supernatural in a lab then I say AGAIN I agree you will NEVER find the proof you claimed to have looked for. How hard can you really have looked when you discount the fact it could exist before you even open your eyes?
"You just told me that I can't find supernatural evidence unless God grants me the ability to perceive supernatural evidence. Now you're telling me I need to investigate it as if it's something I need to find myself. So which is it?"
I'm not moving the goalpost you just refuse the field even exist. You can't be truly seeking when you think the premise is impossible from the jump. I would really like to hear ALL the many ways you've investigated the possibility of the supernatural to be able to come to your very self assured position that what I have been telling you about was just a "personal feeling". I've never seen someone "feel" themselves into a whole new person with new habits, a new love, and a whole new assurance that God is real, AND His son Jesus is the only way overnight. Do you know a lot of people that changed themselves behaviorally overnight? And I mean major life habits they never even considered bad, like video games and porn, and the way they act at work and at home with family. If so then I'd say you know another Christian.
The biggest thing you have to understand is that what "proved" God to me wasn't a flutter in my gut, or that nostalgic feeling you get when an old song you love comes on, what I am talking about is a complete and total undeniable change in you that the people around you can see and ask about. This wasn't a 2 second feeling that convinced my inferior mind. God's proven Himself to me and I'm grateful, it's the only reason I talk to people who have the wrong idea about what it even is. I felt the same way you do 13 months ago even while I called myself a Christian, I am still kind of in shock all this is so very literally real.
Anyway I understand why you CAN'T and refuse to believe, the whole world tells us it's ridiculous to believe from the day we are born so it's no mystery, but I am at the end of my "mission" to convince you, I can't anyway only God can pull you in. No amount of internet debate will ever make such dedicated atheists believe in God, just like nothing can ever show a true Christian they are wrong, as they've had the supernatural proof you mock. That's why I came to CC because I was so tired of running these laps round and round on YOUTUBE. So I will respectfully bow out here, and agree there is no proof that YOU would accept to prove the supernatural can exist. You win, there is no God to you, but our God is great if you ever want to try Him out.
"You just told me that I can't find supernatural evidence unless God grants me the ability to perceive supernatural evidence. Now you're telling me I need to investigate it as if it's something I need to find myself. So which is it?"
I'm not moving the goalpost you just refuse the field even exist. You can't be truly seeking when you think the premise is impossible from the jump. I would really like to hear ALL the many ways you've investigated the possibility of the supernatural to be able to come to your very self assured position that what I have been telling you about was just a "personal feeling". I've never seen someone "feel" themselves into a whole new person with new habits, a new love, and a whole new assurance that God is real, AND His son Jesus is the only way overnight. Do you know a lot of people that changed themselves behaviorally overnight? And I mean major life habits they never even considered bad, like video games and porn, and the way they act at work and at home with family. If so then I'd say you know another Christian.
The biggest thing you have to understand is that what "proved" God to me wasn't a flutter in my gut, or that nostalgic feeling you get when an old song you love comes on, what I am talking about is a complete and total undeniable change in you that the people around you can see and ask about. This wasn't a 2 second feeling that convinced my inferior mind. God's proven Himself to me and I'm grateful, it's the only reason I talk to people who have the wrong idea about what it even is. I felt the same way you do 13 months ago even while I called myself a Christian, I am still kind of in shock all this is so very literally real.
Anyway I understand why you CAN'T and refuse to believe, the whole world tells us it's ridiculous to believe from the day we are born so it's no mystery, but I am at the end of my "mission" to convince you, I can't anyway only God can pull you in. No amount of internet debate will ever make such dedicated atheists believe in God, just like nothing can ever show a true Christian they are wrong, as they've had the supernatural proof you mock. That's why I came to CC because I was so tired of running these laps round and round on YOUTUBE. So I will respectfully bow out here, and agree there is no proof that YOU would accept to prove the supernatural can exist. You win, there is no God to you, but our God is great if you ever want to try Him out.
This is akin to asking how you know disease is caused by sin, and you replying "it is self-evident."
It is not indeed self evident. It is just what you think makes the most sense. If it were actually self evidenct, everyone would agree. But it is entirely impossible to conclude whether or not everything has a cause without observing everything. Also, there is the fact that you don't think God had a cause, rendering the axiom "everything has a cause" invalid.
It is not indeed self evident. It is just what you think makes the most sense. If it were actually self evidenct, everyone would agree. But it is entirely impossible to conclude whether or not everything has a cause without observing everything. Also, there is the fact that you don't think God had a cause, rendering the axiom "everything has a cause" invalid.
In my area of Ontario there are a lot of geologic features attributed to glacial activity. In fact just about every feature is related to the most recent ice age. I don't ask who put the kettle ponds, erratic boulders, till deposits, and so on where they are. They are obviously natural in origin. The fossils I find in my local creek don't cause me to wonder who made them. Man made objects like golf balls and broken glass bottles, on the other hand, are pretty obviously produced by us. They don't cause me to puzzle between natural formations and man made objects or rubbish. Natural formations on Earth are obviously natural and for that matter nothing I see beyond the Earth seems anything other than natural either.
Natural objects like planets and stars are fully accounted for by science. I don't see any evidence they were designed. What is the universe if it is not simply more planets, stars, gas clouds, comets, asteroids, etc.? They all are natural in their origin. Nl, you are in the unenviable philosophical position of claiming God made all these things (as we made bottles and buildings) without providing the evidence. You can't demonstrate the truth of your conviction. Everyone acknowledges that religious belief comes down to faith. Far from giving the appearance of having been designed, the solar system looks as though it was not designed. It appears to have originated just as astronomers claim.
Nl, let me ask you. Does it look as though Man created Marduk, Ganesh, and leprechauns? I don’t think you should have any difficulty accepting the same conclusion as myself. You should, then, understand how men, and women, created beliefs about God. You can at least comprehend the process even as you reject it, in the case of God, for reasons attributable to faith.
As an atheist I reject, as you do, all previous claims made by men of non-Judeo-Christian faiths that their various gods created the world and humans. You stand with me on this. Are you displaying a clear and biased prejudice against their beliefs, or do we both have good reason not to believe, for example, that the Earth rests on the back of a giant turtle, and so on?
As Dawkins says, we atheists simply go one god further.
Natural objects like planets and stars are fully accounted for by science. I don't see any evidence they were designed. What is the universe if it is not simply more planets, stars, gas clouds, comets, asteroids, etc.? They all are natural in their origin. Nl, you are in the unenviable philosophical position of claiming God made all these things (as we made bottles and buildings) without providing the evidence. You can't demonstrate the truth of your conviction. Everyone acknowledges that religious belief comes down to faith. Far from giving the appearance of having been designed, the solar system looks as though it was not designed. It appears to have originated just as astronomers claim.
Nl, let me ask you. Does it look as though Man created Marduk, Ganesh, and leprechauns? I don’t think you should have any difficulty accepting the same conclusion as myself. You should, then, understand how men, and women, created beliefs about God. You can at least comprehend the process even as you reject it, in the case of God, for reasons attributable to faith.
As an atheist I reject, as you do, all previous claims made by men of non-Judeo-Christian faiths that their various gods created the world and humans. You stand with me on this. Are you displaying a clear and biased prejudice against their beliefs, or do we both have good reason not to believe, for example, that the Earth rests on the back of a giant turtle, and so on?
As Dawkins says, we atheists simply go one god further.
Oh I know I am going to regret butting in and pointing this out, but I feel I have to make this point.
Cycle "Does it look as though Man created Marduk, Ganesh, and leprechauns?"
I would have to say yes it does, but I've never seen anyone make the claim a leprechaun has saved them and Change them 100% totally making them completely new. Even if there are one or two cases you can find where this was the case it is in no way comparable to the many in the body of Christ through history that were convinced enough to burn for what they knew to be truth, and still do to this day. You can't seriously compare the claims of leprechauns or unicorns to the claims of Christians throughout history to the power of Jesus Christ. Ok, I'm ready to hear how this is the most illogical view in the history of man.
Cycle "Does it look as though Man created Marduk, Ganesh, and leprechauns?"
I would have to say yes it does, but I've never seen anyone make the claim a leprechaun has saved them and Change them 100% totally making them completely new. Even if there are one or two cases you can find where this was the case it is in no way comparable to the many in the body of Christ through history that were convinced enough to burn for what they knew to be truth, and still do to this day. You can't seriously compare the claims of leprechauns or unicorns to the claims of Christians throughout history to the power of Jesus Christ. Ok, I'm ready to hear how this is the most illogical view in the history of man.
J
Can't say I know any leprechauns, but I know (Greek "epignosis" know of the New Testament) our Lord Jesus by His Spirit, have experienced and experience His power, the power of One very alive and real. Though you can't transfer your experience to another person, one should never discount the testimony of millions who actually KNOW the Lord in their lives, in their consciousness, in their spirits, as well as seeing Him work throughout their lives and the lives of others. There's a reason there are thousands of Christian churches down the ages, and not leprechaun churches.
Percepi said:
How do you know everything has had a cause?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxCDHJCAiBQ