Is there such a thing as an atheist?

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Aug 25, 2013
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Leannaix said:
That is ridiculous. Disease is not caused by sin, it is caused by micro-organisms.
Don't confuse the immediate cause with the ultimate cause.
Elin, I am not clear on your position. I think you might be saying that while disease organisms cause disease the organisms themselves resulted from Adam and Eve's original sin? Or are you saying God punishes sinners by inflicting disease upon them? You do seem to believe that disease relates somehow to sin. Would you mind clarifying?

Oh, and I apologize to you both for barging into the fray; but I do enjoy frays. :)
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Elin, I am not clear on your position. I think you might be saying that while disease organisms cause disease the organisms themselves resulted from Adam and Eve's original sin? Or are you saying God punishes sinners by inflicting disease upon them? You do seem to believe that disease relates somehow to sin. Would you mind clarifying?

Oh, and I apologize to you both for barging into the fray; but I do enjoy frays. :)
But you do it so nicely.

There was no disease, death or decay in the natural order until Adam sinned, bringing it all on the natural order.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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When you see a table of dominoes, everyone knows that someone set them up.
Okay. Those are dominoes, not everything. I asked how do you know everything had a cause?

When we look at volcanoes, we know man didn't create them. Can we then conclude nothing was created? Of course not.

Just because one object possess a property doesn't mean all other objects possess the same property. Pointing to a watch and saying it had a maker doesn't mean everything else also had a maker. If we could get away with that argument, then I could wrongfully argue, "Watches were made by humans, therefore humans created everything."

The problem here is that you're taking an analogy and using it as your argument. Analogies are used to help explain things from a different perspective. They are not evidence themselves.

Self-evident, as

1) A = A

2) A = C
---B = C
Then A = B.

etc., etc.
Well, no. It's not.

Not at all. . .straw man.

I don't say that, that is not my argument.

I know from the Bible that disease is caused by sin.
It wasn't a straw-man argument. It was an analogy to help paint a different perspective in the hopes you would understand their argument more easily.

The atheist seems to allow this conclusion: Man created God.

The atheist seems to disallow this conclusion: God created man.

This seems like a biased prejudice to me where the atheist will only allow the conclusion that they wish for and want.
This is because you have a hard time understanding how anyone could disagree with your points. I'm not rejecting the existence of God because I refuse to believe anything else. I reject the existence of God because I refuse to swallow bad arguments for his existence (in the same way I don't allow myself to accept bad arguments for Vishnu).

The only "investigation I've heard you mention is looking for NATURAL evidence for the SUPERNATURAL. As smart as you claim to be this simple concept keeps flying over you logic meter. So you have prayed, went to mediums, tried all spiritual methods to contact the supernatural? I by no means would suggest that, but if you are talking about proving the supernatural in a lab then I say AGAIN I agree you will NEVER find the proof you claimed to have looked for. How hard can you really have looked when you discount the fact it could exist before you even open your eyes?
It doesn't matter whether I believe something could or could not exist. What matters is that I'm open to changing my mind in the face of solid evidence.

Believe it or not, I used to be a Christian. I used to pray and I used to feel the presence of God when I worshiped him. But as I allowed myself to question the existence of God, the more I realized that those special feelings were natural - they were brought upon me through the feeling of being loved and accepted by someone who's essentially the biggest celebrity known to man. It was essentially a placebo.

The biggest thing you have to understand is that what "proved" God to me wasn't a flutter in my gut, or that nostalgic feeling you get when an old song you love comes on, what I am talking about is a complete and total undeniable change in you that the people around you can see and ask about.
I've changed the outlook of my life and overcome personal issues without praying to God or praising him. It's not something that can happen overnight, you're right. But through self evaluation and determination it is possible.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Oh I know I am going to regret butting in and pointing this out, but I feel I have to make this point.
I am familiar with the temptation. :)

Does it look as though Man created Marduk, Ganesh, and leprechauns?
Jimbone said:
I would have to say yes it does, but I've never seen anyone make the claim a leprechaun has saved them and Change them 100% totally making them completely new.
I remember being very young and waking from a bad dream. Then I thought of Mighty Mouse and I knew everything would be all right. I went back to sleep.

My point was not about how frequently people are saved, changed, or comforted by a false belief system, but simply that we create them in our minds. Life conversions are not demonstrations of truth, and we can’t tick off boxes to quantify the truth of a claim based upon the numbers that are comforted by a belief. I am sure large numbers of soldiers in antiquity went into battle feeling safer for the protection they imagined Mithras provided them; but if it is a life changing spirituality that opens the individual to a paradigm shift in personality, that proves the legitimacy of the belief for you, then what better example of this is there than contemporary Islam with its hundreds, maybe thousands, of martyrs.

No Jimbone, history is infused with religious movements that ensnare the minds of devoted followers. It is not uncommon at all. Devotion to a faith is not proof of anything, except that men and women are easily led into supernatural belief.

Jimbone said:
... many in the body of Christ through history that were convinced enough to burn for what they knew to be truth, and still do to this day.
You should be thinking now of Islam. If martyrdom is proof of truth then no faith can be more true than Islam. It has become synonymous with martyrdom.

Jimbone said:
You can't seriously compare the claims of leprechauns or unicorns to the claims of Christians throughout history to the power of Jesus Christ.
I mentioned leprechauns, but you are leaving out mention of Marduk (a deceased god) and Ganesh (a living god – living in that there are millions of believers). I mentioned those three just to cover all the bases. You can downplay the importance of creatures of folklore, but the gods are different. They had huge followings, and some still do. I have read that Ganesh is one of the most beloved gods among Hindus. Most likely far more have died as offerings to Baal and Marduk than ever died of martyrdom in Christianity. You cannot, and should not, down play the devotion displayed for these deities. I want to stress that depth of conviction is not proof of legitimacy, for any faith. The deeper one believes the less discerning one becomes. Remember, I have personal experience with this particular kind truth; but we are drifting from the main point that started all this. Atheists generally believe that Man created God, not the other way around, and despite protests to the contrary it seems to me this is what happened.
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
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Okay. Those are dominoes, not everything. I asked how do you know everything had a cause?

When we look at volcanoes, we know man didn't create them. Can we then conclude nothing was created? Of course not.

Just because one object possess a property doesn't mean all other objects possess the same property. Pointing to a watch and saying it had a maker doesn't mean everything else also had a maker. If we could get away with that argument, then I could wrongfully argue, "Watches were made by humans, therefore humans created everything."

The problem here is that you're taking an analogy and using it as your argument. Analogies are used to help explain things from a different perspective. They are not evidence themselves.
Dominoes on the table always have a cause. Trash and tennis balls in the wilderness always have a cause. Why expect an exception? It is not logical. You may be hoping and praying and believing for causeless existence but all evidence points to a cause. A piece of paper doesn't exist without a cause. The universe is far more remarkable than a piece of paper. Yet, the atheist acknowledges a cause for a piece of paper but denies a cause for the universe? Who is not logical?

percepi said:
Believe it or not, I used to be a Christian. I used to pray and I used to feel the presence of God when I worshiped him...
#Like
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
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There is no evidence that anything even as insignificant as a piece of domino or a piece of paper ever came into existence without a cause. Yet, without evidence, the atheist believes that something as significant as the entire universe somehow came into existence without a cause. you may wish for a universe without a cause but there is no evidence for anything existing without a cause.

None of us were there at the beginning. Newspapers and television were not there to report on it. Instead, we must examine the evidence that we do have. The evidence ALWAYS shows a cause. Think about it.
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
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There is no evidence that anything has ever existed without a cause. There is no evidence that the universe exists without a cause. The atheist blindly believes in causeless existence without support from evidence or logic.
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
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Yet no one has any comment about my Peter Van Inwagen reference.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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Dominoes on the table always have a cause. Trash and tennis balls in the wilderness always have a cause. Why expect an exception? It is not logical.
Why expect an exception? Because everything is different. Just because one objects is subject to one thing doesn't mean all different objects are subject to the same thing. You're comparing apples to oranges, or dominoes to the universe. There are vast differences.

Yet, the atheist acknowledges a cause for a piece of paper but denies a cause for the universe? Who is not logical?
The universe most likely does have a cause, but we don't know what it is. But to assume it was caused by a creator is just that - an assumption. More importantly, to deduce the universe was created because a watch was created (or paper planes, or trash, or tennis balls, etc.) is simply illogical since it ignores all the non-man made objects that came about naturally such as stalactites, magma, sand, etc.

Yet, without evidence, the atheist believes that something as significant as the entire universe somehow came into existence without a cause. you may wish for a universe without a cause but there is no evidence for anything existing without a cause.
I could care less if the universe was created or not, or if the universe had a cause even. It's not about what I want. I'm not even saying the universe didn't have a cause. We don't know, and anyone who claims to know needs to back up their claims with valid evidence. Otherwise, I will point out the flaws in their logic and resort to the default position of "I don't know".

The evidence ALWAYS shows a cause. Think about it.
Yes, so far everything has a "cause", depending on how you define the word. Some things are created by man, such as watches. This surely means God must have created the universe, right? But, stalactites formed naturally. This surely mean the universe came to be through a natural process, right? To draw a conclusion either way based on such a flawed argument would be ridiculous.

It's like saying, "Bats, woodpeckers, storks, eagles, crows, and parrots all love to fly. Therefore, sloths love to fly too!"

There is no evidence that anything has ever existed without a cause. There is no evidence that the universe exists without a cause. The atheist blindly believes in causeless existence without support from evidence or logic.
I already addressed this claim, but it's very important you understand my response.

Atheists don't necessarily believe there wasn't a cause. In fact, many would argue the cause is a natural one. But no matter what we personally believe, that's literally all it is... a belief that is not evidence based. So whether we believe the universe has a cause or not, was caused naturally or created, it all boils down to "We don't know". And when people make arguments explaining why they believe one way or another, those arguments can be scrutinized.

I personally believe the universe came to be through a natural cause, one in which time acted much more differently than we could even fathom. I believe this because time is relative. But, I'll admit, I ultimately don't know. If you want to argue that you believe the universe was created because it just seems like it must have been, fair enough - but you need to understand that your reasons for believing the universe were created aren't evidence.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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The universe most likely does have a cause, but we don't know what it is. But to assume it was caused by a creator is just that - an assumption.
And there you have it.

The evidence is that the universe has a cause, we just don't know what it is.
But a creator is just an assumption. . .deliberately blind to the self-evident.

And an assumption only to those in whom the Creator has not provided absolute certainty.
Not possessing such convincing inner evidence from the Creator, you say it cannot exist.

So I ask, do you know all things?
Until you know all things, you cannot logically say such convincing inner evidence does not exist.
Nor can you explain the common nature of this experience to all who have received it.

You're like an ant trying to convince the ant hill that intelligence does not exist
because it does not follow ant logic and he has not experienced it.
 
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ELECT

Guest
Okay. Those are dominoes, not everything. I asked how do you know everything had a cause?

When we look at volcanoes, we know man didn't create them. Can we then conclude nothing was created? Of course not.

Just because one object possess a property doesn't mean all other objects possess the same property. Pointing to a watch and saying it had a maker doesn't mean everything else also had a maker. If we could get away with that argument, then I could wrongfully argue, "Watches were made by humans, therefore humans created everything."

The problem here is that you're taking an analogy and using it as your argument. Analogies are used to help explain things from a different perspective. They are not evidence themselves.



Well, no. It's not.



It wasn't a straw-man argument. It was an analogy to help paint a different perspective in the hopes you would understand their argument more easily.



This is because you have a hard time understanding how anyone could disagree with your points. I'm not rejecting the existence of God because I refuse to believe anything else. I reject the existence of God because I refuse to swallow bad arguments for his existence (in the same way I don't allow myself to accept bad arguments for Vishnu).



It doesn't matter whether I believe something could or could not exist. What matters is that I'm open to changing my mind in the face of solid evidence.

Believe it or not, I used to be a Christian. I used to pray and I used to feel the presence of God when I worshiped him. But as I allowed myself to question the existence of God, the more I realized that those special feelings were natural - they were brought upon me through the feeling of being loved and accepted by someone who's essentially the biggest celebrity known to man. It was essentially a placebo.



I've changed the outlook of my life and overcome personal issues without praying to God or praising him. It's not something that can happen overnight, you're right. But through self evaluation and determination it is possible.
Where do dreams about the future comes from ?
 
Sep 14, 2014
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And there you have it.

The evidence is that the universe has a cause, we just don't know what it is.
But a creator is just an assumption. . .deliberately blind to the self-evident.

And an assumption only to those in whom the Creator has not provided absolute certainty.
Not possessing such convincing inner evidence from the Creator, you say it cannot exist.

So I ask, do you know all things?
Until you know all things, you cannot logically say such convincing inner evidence does not exist.
Nor can you explain the common nature of this experience to all who have received it.

You're like an ant trying to convince the ant hill that intelligence does not exist
because it does not follow ant logic and he has not experienced it.
You know what will settle this discussion?

The same thing that will settle every discussion that has ever happened on the subject and the same thing that will settle every discussion that will ever happen at any point in future on the subject...

Evidence.


There is a reason these discussions will always take place... Because there is no Evidence to the contrary.


One bit of Evidence will end
the discussion right now and put an end to all debate that will ever happen in the future.

Provide that... And you win.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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You know what will settle this discussion?

The same thing that will settle every discussion that has ever happened on the subject and the same thing that will settle every discussion that will ever happen at any point in future on the subject...

Evidence.


There is a reason these discussions will always take place... Because there is no Evidence to the contrary.


One bit of Evidence will end
the discussion right now and put an end to all debate that will ever happen in the future.

Provide that... And you win.
Win what? She's already won if Christ lives in her whether anyone else believes it or not.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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You know what will settle this discussion?

The same thing that will settle every discussion that has ever happened on the subject and the same thing that will settle every discussion that will ever happen at any point in future on the subject...

Evidence.

There is a reason these discussions will always take place... Because
there is no Evidence to the contrary.
Only for those who can't see it.

One bit of Evidence will end
the discussion right now and put an end to all debate that will ever happen in the future.

Provide that... And you win.
The blind man can't see the evidence.
 
Sep 14, 2014
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Only for those who can't see it.


The blind man can't see the evidence.
I have a magic potion that can cure AIDS... But it will only work if you don't have AIDS. That's pretty much what your saying.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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Eternal life, a whole new understanding of the world around her, the veil lifted, and a peace from the stresses of this world were are programed from birth to accept as "part of life". Well I can't speak for her but that's what I got, also we didn't "win" it, it was a gift from the God we now KNOW (for ourselves of course) exist.