Hebrews

[4enlightment]

The fact that no early MSS copies have been found that bear Paul's name is a simple fact but this in itself is not sufficient evidence against Pauline authorship. For the scribes who copied the MSS, their eloquence or the lack thereof simply was not an issue. They simply copied what was before them one letter at a time. Paul's supposed lack of eloquence is simply an argument used by many who argue against Pauline authorship. This argument does not present Paul's statement in 1Cor 2:1 honestly. Paul never claimed to lack eloquence. He only told the Corinthian Church that he did not use eloquence as a drawing card for the gospel. There is absolutely no evidence of any kind either internal or external to suggest that the Hebrew letter was ever originally written in Hebrew. This is a popular speculation among some but is completely without historical or MSS evidence. The earliest extant MSS of Hebrews comes from the p46 MSS which possibly dates prior to the third century, certainly not later than 200 AD (third century) which is considered very early indeed although a fragment of Hebrews 11 was found that is said to date to the second century. I do not remember when the first copy of the letter appeared in the Hebrew language. I am sure you can probably find out with a little web searching. There would have been no logical reason for writing this particular letter in Hebrew since everyone spoke Greek as a common language. Personally, I do not believe Paul to be the author of the letter because of 2:3-4. Who ever wrote this letter was not an apostle.

Yes, Paul was an Apostle, but he also had visions from the Lord, and so he had heard from the Lord. But the closes scribe that was with Paul, was Luke; but then there were other scribes that were around. The verse that you have posted sound as if someone had branched out on their own and started writing to others, like the ones he referred as Hebrew. Paul's task was to preach to the Gentiles, not to the Hebrews.

Galatians 2:7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.

 

[oldhermit]

Yes, Paul was an Apostle, but he also had visions from the Lord, and so he had heard from the Lord. But the closes scribe that was with Paul, was Luke; but then there were other scribes that were around.

How is this evidence for Pauline authorship?

The verse that you have posted sound as if someone had branched out on their own and started writing to others, like the ones he referred as Hebrew. Paul's task was to preach to the Gentiles, not to the Hebrews.

No, the fact is not all New Testament writers were apostles as I am sure you are aware. The possibility that this letter may not be Pauline does not subtract from its inspiration. This writer simply does not regard himself as among those who had received the gospel first hand.

Galatians 2:7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.

True, but this did not disqualify him from preaching to the Jews. "But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel." Acts 9:15.

 

[4enlightment]

How is this evidence for Pauline authorship?No, the fact is not all New Testament writers were apostles as I am sure you are aware. The possibility that this letter may not be Pauline does not subtract from its inspiration. This writer simply does not regard himself as among those who had received the gospel first hand.
True, but this did not disqualify him from preaching to the Jews. "But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel." Acts 9:15.

I was agreeing that Paul wasn't the one that had written the book of Hebrew. I know that it was someone that wasn't a Jew.

 

[4enlightment]

They all have had certain task; Paul was to preach to the Gentiles, while Peter job was to preach to the Jews. I know that they can preach all over, but God knows the heart, and God had known that Peter wasn't strong enough to sit down and eat with the Gentile, but Paul was able too.

 

[oldhermit]

They all have had certain task; Paul was to preach to the Gentiles, while Peter job was to preach to the Jews. I know that they can preach all over, but God knows the heart, and God had known that Peter wasn't strong enough to sit down and eat with the Gentile, but Paul was able too.

I like the point you make about Paul and Peter and their association with the Gentiles. You are quite right. Paul was certainly the more suitable of the two for work among the Gentiles although it was Peter who introduced the first Gentile converts.

 

[crossnote]

Remember, Paul was addressing it to the Gentiles, and the Gentiles at the time were basically the Romans and Greeks. Does it make any sense to tell someone that belong to a nation, to make a nation out of them? Abraham's Parents had settle in the land of Ur of the Chaldeans, and so Abraham should of been called an Chaldeans, not Hebrew. But the word Hebrew is describing a social class of people, like Gypsy and which they are a people that didn't established a nation as well. God only accept those that the world reject and make them becomes the corner stone to His kingdom.

Psalm 118:22 The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;

ok, so Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the twelve tribes were Gentiles...gotcha.

No wonder the Gentiles were interested in OT typologies, the Levitical Priesthood, offerings and Temple setup etc.. Yupp.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

There would have been no logical reason for writing this particular letter in Hebrew since everyone spoke Greek as a common language. Personally, I do not believe Paul to be the author of the letter because of 2:3-4. Who ever wrote this letter was not an apostle.

The Qumran (Dead Sea) scrolls written in Hebrew are said by scholars to have appealed to the majority of readers who still used Hebrew and or ancient Aramaic as both spoken and written language preferences. Four languages were represented in them, letting us know the popular choices of those days Paul wrote in. They were Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew and Nabataean.
I find it interesting the sign on Jesus' cross was inscribed Greek, Hebrew, and Latin, yet Latin was despised by Jews then.

Anyway, I'm finding that Hebrew remained the popular choice among Jews like Paul, certainly when in a liturgical setting, until the 4th century AD. The other languages were spoken by Jews and gentiles in the Levant due to the extreme contacts with foreigners and resulting trade communication necessities.

I agree on the "eloquence" comment. He meant he chose not to come off as high-minded like a priest or Pharisee trying to impress hearers with polished utterance. He was plain and simple in words, very humble and truly meek. Even today you can listen to religious lectures that are so polished and full of rarely used proper vocabulary and grammar as to sound like a new language.

 

[4enlightment]

ok, so Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the twelve tribes were Gentiles...gotcha.

No wonder the Gentiles were interested in OT typologies, the Levitical Priesthood, offerings and Temple setup etc.. Yupp.

Does this make sense if an english speaking person call another english speaking person, a Gringo?

 

[4enlightment]

The Qumran (Dead Sea) scrolls written in Hebrew are said by scholars to have appealed to the majority of readers who still used Hebrew and or ancient Aramaic as both spoken and written language preferences. Four languages were represented in them, letting us know the popular choices of those days Paul wrote in. They were Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew and Nabataean.
I find it interesting the sign on Jesus' cross was inscribed Greek, Hebrew, and Latin, yet Latin was despised by Jews then.

Anyway, I'm finding that Hebrew remained the popular choice among Jews like Paul, certainly when in a liturgical setting, until the 4th century AD. The other languages were spoken by Jews and gentiles in the Levant due to the extreme contacts with foreigners and resulting trade communication necessities.

I agree on the "eloquence" comment. He meant he chose not to come off as high-minded like a priest or Pharisee trying to impress hearers with polished utterance. He was plain and simple in words, very humble and truly meek. Even today you can listen to religious lectures that are so polished and full of rarely used proper vocabulary and grammar as to sound like a new language.

And so calling Jesus the King of the Jews was an insult as well.

 

[oldhermit]

The Qumran (Dead Sea) scrolls written in Hebrew are said by scholars to have appealed to the majority of readers who still used Hebrew and or ancient Aramaic as both spoken and written language preferences. Four languages were represented in them, letting us know the popular choices of those days Paul wrote in. They were Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew and Nabataean.
I find it interesting the sign on Jesus' cross was inscribed Greek, Hebrew, and Latin, yet Latin was despised by Jews then.

Anyway, I'm finding that Hebrew remained the popular choice among Jews like Paul, certainly when in a liturgical setting, until the 4th century AD. The other languages were spoken by Jews and gentiles in the Levant due to the extreme contacts with foreigners and resulting trade communication necessities.

Yes, Hebrew remained the liturgical language among the Jews. It is important however to remember that many other NT writings were written to churches that were Gentile and Hebrew mixed and some of which were thought to be predominately Hebrew and those letters were written in Greek as well.

 

[notuptome]

Always interesting question of who wrote the book of Hebrews. Simple answer is the Holy Spirit but the most important question is do you believe what is written and live accordingly?

It does seem difficult to believe that is was not someone who was Jewish. There is simply too much depth of knowledge of Judaism for it not to have been a well schooled Jew. Some of the teaching practices are very Jewish in their nature. Meaning the way certain ideas are posed to provoke thought in the Jewish mind.

Paul certainly could have written Hebrews or another unknown author may have been used by God. In either case the only important fact is what we do with what is written.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Bride]

ok, so Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the twelve tribes were Gentiles...gotcha.

No wonder the Gentiles were interested in OT typologies, the Levitical Priesthood, offerings and Temple setup etc.. Yupp.

Most people don't know this, very good. Yes, the same word "Nations" is the exact same word translated "Gentiles". It solves a lot of theological dogma distress once this is understand. Verses like this now make sense to us in the New Covenant to Israel in Christ, what the New Testament fulfills to Abraham;
(Mat 3:9)
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

(Gen 17:5)

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations (GENTILES) have I made thee.





(Joh 7:35)
Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?


(Rom 8:15)
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.




(Rom 8:16)
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:





(Jas 1:1)
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

That's us! The Children of Abraham, Fathered by Christ, the fulfillment of the Promise of the Father.





(Joh 14:8)
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.




(Joh 14:9)
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?





(Luk 24:49)
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.


(Luk 20:36)
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.





(Heb 2:13)
And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.


(Mar 1:15)
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.





(Joh 11:52)
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


(Deu 28:64)
And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.





(Psa 106:27)
To overthrow their seed also among the nations, and to scatter them in the lands.


(Mat 24:31)
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.





(Joh 11:52)
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.





(Mat 9:36)
But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.



(Eph 1:10)
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:





(Gal 3:26)
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.




(Gal 3:27)
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.




(Gal 3:28)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.




(Gal 3:29)
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[4enlightment]

Yes, Hebrew remained the liturgical language among the Jews. It is important however to remember that many other NT writings were written to churches that were Gentile and Hebrew mixed and some of which were thought to be predominately Hebrew and those letters were written in Greek as well.

But the word Jesus is a Greek name as well as James and the rest. James is the Greek word for Jacob (Ieakob) and Jesus is Joshua (Iashoowah); but the letter "J" had came in because Martin Luther was German.. When they were at the cross, some had thought that Jesus was calling out to Elijah, but it was Eli, Eloi or Eloihim and which they has forgotten what it means. They had lost their ways and language by being in captivity from the time they were in Egypt. And so their language has been water down from since then. But Jesus was the only one that know how to speak the language during the time of the covenant was made, which it is the language that Abraham had spoken, the Kasdim - Hebrew (Chaldean's) language.

Ur Kaśdim or Ur of the Chaldees (אוּר כַּשְׂדִים) is a biblical place mentioned in the Book of Genesis that refers to a location that the Patriarch Abraham may have been from. Not only is there much debate in interpreting Ur Kaśdim as Abraham's birthplace, but also identifying this location.

 

[Elin]

who wrote Hebrews?

Well, because I think the style is different from Romans, I had though Apollos penned it.

But the last three verses of the book are so Pauline, that I'm thinking Paul wrote it.

 

[crossnote]

ok, so Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the twelve tribes were Gentiles...gotcha.

No wonder the Gentiles were interested in OT typologies, the Levitical Priesthood, offerings and Temple setup etc.. Yupp.

Does this make sense if an english speaking person call another english speaking person, a Gringo?

No. But neither can I make sense of your comment either.

 

[john832]

Well, because I think the style is different from Romans, I had though Apollos penned it.

But the last three verses of the book are so Pauline, that I'm thinking Paul wrote it.

Paul's style in the book of Hebrews would of necessity be different, he was writing to Jews not Gentiles. I agree, Paul wrote it.

 

[4enlightment]

No. But neither can I make sense of your comment either.

Okay, does this sound proper if i was a Hebrew, and I write a letter to a group that their nationality is Hebrew also, by starting it off by saying, this is a letter to the ones that are called Hebrews? I understand that if the author was an Gentile, but a Hebrew, that doesn't make any sense. and they didn't went by Hebrew, but Jews or Israelites. What if I'd written a Letter to Abraham, by starting it off by saying, Dear, Abram...

 

[4enlightment]

Most people don't know this, very good. Yes, the same word "Nations" is the exact same word translated "Gentiles". It solves a lot of theological dogma distress once this is understand. Verses like this now make sense to us in the New Covenant to Israel in Christ, what the New Testament fulfills to Abraham;
(Mat 3:9)
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

(Gen 17:5)

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations (GENTILES) have I made thee.





(Joh 7:35)
Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?


(Rom 8:15)
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.




(Rom 8:16)
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:





(Jas 1:1)
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

That's us! The Children of Abraham, Fathered by Christ, the fulfillment of the Promise of the Father.





(Joh 14:8)
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.




(Joh 14:9)
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thouthen,Shew us the Father?





(Luk 24:49)
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.


(Luk 20:36)
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.





(Heb 2:13)
And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.


(Mar 1:15)
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.





(Joh 11:52)
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


(Deu 28:64)
And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.





(Psa 106:27)
To overthrow their seed also among the nations, and to scatter them in the lands.


(Mat 24:31)
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.





(Joh 11:52)
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.





(Mat 9:36)
But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.



(Eph 1:10)
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:





(Gal 3:26)
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.




(Gal 3:27)
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.




(Gal 3:28)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.




(Gal 3:29)
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I'm assuming that it means the people of this nation or world, worldly. Peter said when the platter of all sort of unclean animals that the world eats, he had said, that he doesn't eat anything that it is common for others to eat, commoners or ordinary.

 

[jimnsc]

I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand, and this is a distinguishing mark in every letter; this is the way that I write. II Thessalonians 3:17. Paul told us here he did not write Hebrews.

 

[Jeff_56]

who wrote Hebrews?

as far as we are concerned? (ekklesia, born again believers)

yahweh