The MOST CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT MADE

[eternally-gratefull]

and in your understanding ...baptism means?????

as with ALL THINGS, we use the hermenuetical approach.

Baptism is a not a native word to the english language. It is a TRANSLITERATION. not a translation, of the greek word baptizo.

Baptizo means to immerse. to place into.

it is a verb. and must be translated as any other verb using the laws of language

John immersed. or placed people in water in a baptism of repentance.

Jesus was immersed in the penalty of our sins, His baptism of the cross.

The children of Isreal were placed into moses (moses being the head) as the NT says, they were baptized into moses.

if the translators translated the word we would not be having this discussion, that is a fact.

It is like washing.

If it says you were washing in water, it means water

If it says you were washing in alcohol, it means you were washing in alcohol.

if it says you were washing, we can only ASSUME we know what they were washing in.

If it says you were baptized in water, you were baptized in water

If it says you were baptized into Christ, It means you were baptized into Christ (not water)

if it just says you were baptized, You can not assume it only means water, it may mean Christ.

Try to study some, You might learn something.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

so when this happen....were you sitting, standing where is your evidence? or is it a personal thing? how did the burial take place?....seeing you were buried with him in baptism...how did it actually happen...did the spirit put you in a laying position? it seems to me you are imagining things...that is not faith but imagination...or was it this experience ...And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And there appeared unto them cloven tongues as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
that is spirit baptism if it was not like that ...I guess it was your imagination

typical response from someone who does not want to understand. You can't understand it, so you make these nonsensical comments.

Sometimes people have a spiritual response when they are washed by the spirit. Sometimes people do not. It does not matter, Salvation is a spiritual thing, not a physical. It is a placing into union with Christ. Having his death and burial placed on your behalf. Where your sins are washed away and you are born again or regenerated.

As paul said. NOT BY WORkS WHICH WE HAVE DONE (which would include water baptism) HE (GOD) Saved us by the WASHING (baptism) and RENEWAL (new birth) of the HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy SPirit did the work.

 

[newbirth]

as with ALL THINGS, we use the hermenuetical approach.

Baptism is a not a native word to the english language. It is a TRANSLITERATION. not a translation, of the greek word baptizo.

Baptizo means to immerse. to place into.

it is a verb. and must be translated as any other verb using the laws of language

John immersed. or placed people in water in a baptism of repentance.

Jesus was immersed in the penalty of our sins, His baptism of the cross.

The children of Isreal were placed into moses (moses being the head) as the NT says, they were baptized into moses.

if the translators translated the word we would not be having this discussion, that is a fact.

It is like washing.

If it says you were washing in water, it means water

If it says you were washing in alcohol, it means you were washing in alcohol.

if it says you were washing, we can only ASSUME we know what they were washing in.

If it says you were baptized in water, you were baptized in water

If it says you were baptized into Christ, It means you were baptized into Christ (not water)

if it just says you were baptized, You can not assume it only means water, it may mean Christ.

Try to study some, You might learn something.

and as with language it is reasonable and practical to assume the norm when the description is not given....so if someone is washing in water ....since it is the normal thing to wash in water....one will say I wash...water is understood...

lets take this scripture...
Acts 19:1-6King James Version (KJV)
19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized(immersed)? And they said, Unto John's baptism(immersion).

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then said Paul, John verily baptized(immersed) with the baptism(immersion) of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]When they heard this, they were baptized(immersed) in the name of the Lord Jesus.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


you are claiming in verse 5 they were not immersed in water because water was not mentioned....then neither were they baptised into Christ....since it says they were baptised (immersed ) in his name...so according to you they wrote his name and immersed the twelve in his name....your reasoning is not in wisdom but in partiality to your doctrine....

isn't it reasonable to assume they were baptised(immersed)in water in the name of the Lord Jesus....which is the normal practise......but if you apply this or a similar reasoning it goes against your doctrine...so you hold on to your doctrine and discard reasonable thinking....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and as with language it is reasonable and practical to assume the norm when the description is not given....so if someone is washing in water ....since it is the normal thing to wash in water....one will say I wash...water is understood...

and in doing so make ourself a hyporcrite. a "know it all" and in the case which has eternal ramifications, in danger of getting it wrong. feel free to do that if you wish. I would rather myself study further and see what is actually being said (especially since if we study the passage we can know.) But studying I guess is not your way? thats sad.

It says we were baptized AND ALSO being raised with hm were done by God. So which is it? the one done by men (as your saying) or the one done by God?

I chose the one done by God. you chose the one done by men, I think the passage shows which one is correct.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the WORKING OF GOD , who raised Him from the dead.

Your reason is flawed. Just read the passage it tells you who did it. It all explains the circumcision done by the hands of God.

 

[newbirth]

typical response from someone who does not want to understand. You can't understand it, so you make these nonsensical comments.

Sometimes people have a spiritual response when they are washed by the spirit. Sometimes people do not. It does not matter, Salvation is a spiritual thing, not a physical. It is a placing into union with Christ. Having his death and burial placed on your behalf. Where your sins are washed away and you are born again or regenerated.

As paul said. NOT BY WORkS WHICH WE HAVE DONE (which would include water baptism) HE (GOD) Saved us by the WASHING (baptism) and RENEWAL (new birth) of the HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy SPirit did the work.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

again a reasoning to suit your doctrine....not by anything we have done(past)...but what we do now...the washing of regeneration is (baptism/immersion)....and renewing of the spirit...is the gift off the HS...
[SUP]
38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[newbirth]

and in doing so make ourself a hyporcrite. a "know it all" and in the case which has eternal ramifications, in danger of getting it wrong. feel free to do that if you wish. I would rather myself study further and see what is actually being said (especially since if we study the passage we can know.) But studying I guess is not your way? thats sad.

It says we were baptized AND ALSO being raised with hm were done by God. So which is it? the one done by men (as your saying) or the one done by God?

I chose the one done by God. you chose the one done by men, I think the passage shows which one is correct.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the WORKING OF GOD , who raised Him from the dead.

Your reason is flawed. Just read the passage it tells you who did it. It all explains the circumcision done by the hands of God.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]buried with Him in baptism(immersion), in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the WORKING OF GOD , who raised Him from the dead....
even the language suggest...you were not buried by him... but with him in immersion and you were raised with him through faith...in the working of God...who raised Him from the dead...

it does not say ...... we were baptized AND ALSO being raised ...it says.......buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the WORKING OF GOD , who raised Him from the dead.

you quote one thing and comment a different thing...this is what the scripture says....buried with Christ in baptism ...raised with Christ through faith....who was raised by God from the dead.....

 

[newbirth]

as with ALL THINGS, we use the hermenuetical approach.

as with all things we ask God to Give us wisdom knowledge and understanding...and we trust him...not our own understanding which is...

the hermenuetical approach

 

[dcontroversal]

as with ALL THINGS, we use the hermenuetical approach.

Baptism is a not a native word to the english language. It is a TRANSLITERATION. not a translation, of the greek word baptizo.

Baptizo means to immerse. to place into.

it is a verb. and must be translated as any other verb using the laws of language

John immersed. or placed people in water in a baptism of repentance.

Jesus was immersed in the penalty of our sins, His baptism of the cross.

The children of Isreal were placed into moses (moses being the head) as the NT says, they were baptized into moses.

if the translators translated the word we would not be having this discussion, that is a fact.

It is like washing.

If it says you were washing in water, it means water

If it says you were washing in alcohol, it means you were washing in alcohol.

if it says you were washing, we can only ASSUME we know what they were washing in.

If it says you were baptized in water, you were baptized in water

If it says you were baptized into Christ, It means you were baptized into Christ (not water)

if it just says you were baptized, You can not assume it only means water, it may mean Christ.

Try to study some, You might learn something.

I agree with this as well....He can read all he wants to, but until he gets over water for salvation he will not be able to learn and or understand...the word is spiritual and NO MAN can understand unless they have been genuinely born again...a gospel of a different kind cannot save and when you add to faith ANYTHING you make void the word and it has no saving power

 

[dcontroversal]

and in doing so make ourself a hyporcrite. a "know it all" and in the case which has eternal ramifications, in danger of getting it wrong. feel free to do that if you wish. I would rather myself study further and see what is actually being said (especially since if we study the passage we can know.) But studying I guess is not your way? thats sad.

It says we were baptized AND ALSO being raised with hm were done by God. So which is it? the one done by men (as your saying) or the one done by God?

I chose the one done by God. you chose the one done by men, I think the passage shows which one is correct.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the WORKING OF GOD , who raised Him from the dead.

Your reason is flawed. Just read the passage it tells you who did it. It all explains the circumcision done by the hands of God.

Again we see that people who have no understanding will trust their works over the work of Jesus....The bible is clear for sure.....it is the simplicity that is found in Christ that saves us....his completed work upon the cross and it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE.....nothing at all about immersion, works, church affiliation, back flipping down the isle, speaking mumbo jumbo etc....FAITH is what is required and the picture of that faith and acceptance of the work of Jesus is found in immersion......rather simplistic and too bad men who are blind will complicate it!

 

[dcontroversal]

amen God has every power, authority and prerogative to do as He pleases!
and all that He pleases to do is done! nothing can hold back His arm!

hear and believe the promise of God from the lips of His Christ:

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life.
He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
(John 5:24)

the 'good news' is very good indeed

No doubt and it is quite simple...believe, be saved and immediately be possessing eternal life!

 

[dcontroversal]

with all due respect bro James....it is not my intention to be rude to anyone....and if I say someone is confused it is not out of anger or hate but based on their comment......in my view... three study bible is confidence in man and not God it is a recipe for confusion...but if I came across as offensive my apologies to bro elf and to anyone who may think of me as such....but if anyone is offended by the word of God which I speak... I make no apology......

You mean the word of God which you twist? It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them which BELIEVE...nothing about water and or works found in that verse!

 

[Tateej]

Please go over 1 Peter 3:20-22 and how that applied to this. As it would not state Noah's family saved by water and then go to requirements of today with the same context in the following verses.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

again a reasoning to suit your doctrine....not by anything we have done(past)...but what we do now...the washing of regeneration is (baptism/immersion)....and renewing of the spirit...is the gift off the HS...
[SUP]
38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

again, your drawing on straws, and not listening to logic. Your reading it according to your own belief system, and missing the point.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy HE SAVED US, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

1. Both doing and saving are past tense verbs, in other words, they are past actions already completed.
2. The word mercy, it means not earned, or not given because we did something, but was given even though we do NOT DESERVE IT. another fine words is GRACE. or do you not understand what Grace is?
3. The final two key words are washing and regeneration. We are washed by the HS, not water baptism, and we are reborn by the Holy Spirit. not by our act. It is the work of God. JUST like it said in the passage about our baptism and new birth.

as for acts. Read it in the greek, it does not fit your interpretation. the baptism was a result of being saved, not in order to be saved, even the old english texts write it that way, The bible must completely agree. it can not say one thin in one place. and something totaly different someplace else. If it does that, The bible is a fake and a lie, and useless. because it contradicts itself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[SUP]12 [/SUP]buried with Him in baptism(immersion), in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the WORKING OF GOD , who raised Him from the dead....
even the language suggest...you were not buried by him... but with him in immersion and you were raised with him through faith...in the working of God...who raised Him from the dead...

it does not say ...... we were baptized AND ALSO being raised ...it says.......buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the WORKING OF GOD , who raised Him from the dead.

you quote one thing and comment a different thing...this is what the scripture says....buried with Christ in baptism ...raised with Christ through faith....who was raised by God from the dead.....

Now your changing the word of God. You forgot to add IT WAS THE WORK OF GOD. why do you have it missing?

It says both the baptism, and raising to new life was THE WORK OF GOD, who raised him from the dead. stop trying to weasle your way out of it and read what it says, And stop changing the meaning and words of scripture!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

as with all things we ask God to Give us wisdom knowledge and understanding...and we trust him...not our own understanding which is...

Yep. which is what I did. When are you going to do it? and stop using your own reasoning, which not only goes against the laws of language, but causes the bible to contradict itself?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again we see that people who have no understanding will trust their works over the work of Jesus....The bible is clear for sure.....it is the simplicity that is found in Christ that saves us....his completed work upon the cross and it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE.....nothing at all about immersion, works, church affiliation, back flipping down the isle, speaking mumbo jumbo etc....FAITH is what is required and the picture of that faith and acceptance of the work of Jesus is found in immersion......rather simplistic and too bad men who are blind will complicate it!

I find it amazing that before the cross. God institute strict and many rules and ritual which he demanded people do. Yet not one of those works had a thing to do with anyone's salvation.

Then here comes Christ, to fulfill what those ritual works represented. So that they could be done away with. Only to add a new set of ritual and works, and demand now that they must be done before your saved.

They do not understand what a confusing and demanding God they make him out to be. It is harder for us to be saved then OT saints??

 

[dcontroversal]

Please go over 1 Peter 3:20-22 and how that applied to this. As it would not state Noah's family saved by water and then go to requirements of today with the same context in the following verses.

[SUP]20[/SUP]Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.[SUP]21[/SUP] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Three words to consider....
saved=DIASOZO=to preserve, to rescue, to escape, to bring safe, to save
figure=antitupon=representative, ANTITYPE, like, figure,
save-=SOZO=to save, to deliver, to protect, preserve

1. What saved Noah and his family?
a. The ark which was pitched within and without<---representative of the blood of Christ
b. The water which killed everyone that WAS NOT IN THE ARK?

2. What SET NOAH and his family APART from those who perished and those who did not?
1. THE WATER BELOW the ARK

Noah and his family were PRESERVED dia the WATER which LIFTED the ARK that they were IN.......HAD they not been IN THE ARK they would have perished.

1. THE LIKE FIGURE, THE REPRESENTATIVE, THE ANTITYPE I.E. THE PICTURE
a. BAPTISM is a figurative PICTURE of the RESURRECTION of JESUS
b. DOES NOT REMOVE the filth of the flesh (sin)
c. GIVES A GOOD conscience before GOD as it points to the antitype of resurrection
d. JUST as the flood SEPERATED NOAH and his family from the generation that perished...BAPTISM is a PICTURE, IT IS OUR PUBLIC PROFESSION of BELIEF in the RESURRECTION and it PUBLICALLY IDENTIFIES US WITH JESUS and disassociates us form the GENERATION that perishes.

IT pleased GOD by the FOOLISHNESS of preaching to SAVE them that BELIEVE.
SAVE=SOZO...to protect, to save, to preserve to make whole, to heal
Believe=pisteuo=to have faith, to entrust, put trust into, to commit to trust

What saves you....actual faith into JESUS or the PICTURE of the resurrection?

Quite simple!

He that BELIEVETH on the SON hath (is having) everlasting life! <----present reality!

 

[dcontroversal]

I find it amazing that before the cross. God institute strict and many rules and ritual which he demanded people do. Yet not one of those works had a thing to do with anyone's salvation.

Then here comes Christ, to fulfill what those ritual works represented. So that they could be done away with. Only to add a new set of ritual and works, and demand now that they must be done before your saved.

They do not understand what a confusing and demanding God they make him out to be. It is harder for us to be saved then OT saints??

I agree for sure....and then they will argue that the thief is not a N.T. example of faith saving and or argue that he had immersion...even though it is obvious that he, while on the cross, recognized the Lordship of Jesus and Jesus acknowledged his faith....Hagar makes the bible and the chapter of faith and she had no immersion, John was called the greatest in the KINGDOM of GOD second only to JESUS and he seemingly had no IMMERSION and PAUL'S statement about the fact that HE WAS NOT SENT TO BAPTISE......if baptism is so important to biblical salvation NO WAY PAUL would say that while being led by the spirit as if it was necessary then PAUL would have said...I am sent to preach the GOSPEL and then to IMMERSE those believing that they might be saved....crazy for sure......!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[SUP]20[/SUP]Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.[SUP]21[/SUP] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Three words to consider....
saved=DIASOZO=to preserve, to rescue, to escape, to bring safe, to save
figure=antitupon=representative, ANTITYPE, like, figure,
save-=SOZO=to save, to deliver, to protect, preserve

1. What saved Noah and his family?
a. The ark which was pitched within and without<---representative of the blood of Christ
b. The water which killed everyone that WAS NOT IN THE ARK?

2. What SET NOAH and his family APART from those who perished and those who did not?
1. THE WATER BELOW the ARK

Noah and his family were PRESERVED dia the WATER which LIFTED the ARK that they were IN.......HAD they not been IN THE ARK they would have perished.

1. THE LIKE FIGURE, THE REPRESENTATIVE, THE ANTITYPE I.E. THE PICTURE
a. BAPTISM is a figurative PICTURE of the RESURRECTION of JESUS
b. DOES NOT REMOVE the filth of the flesh (sin)
c. GIVES A GOOD conscience before GOD as it points to the antitype of resurrection
d. JUST as the flood SEPERATED NOAH and his family from the generation that perished...BAPTISM is a PICTURE, IT IS OUR PUBLIC PROFESSION of BELIEF in the RESURRECTION and it PUBLICALLY IDENTIFIES US WITH JESUS and disassociates us form the GENERATION that perishes.

IT pleased GOD by the FOOLISHNESS of preaching to SAVE them that BELIEVE.
SAVE=SOZO...to protect, to save, to preserve to make whole, to heal
Believe=pisteuo=to have faith, to entrust, put trust into, to commit to trust

What saves you....actual faith into JESUS or the PICTURE of the resurrection?

Quite simple!

He that BELIEVETH on the SON hath (is having) everlasting life! <----present reality!

why do people not get this? I will never get it.

they were saved because God shut them in the ark. No because of the water. the water was Gods wrath!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree for sure....and then they will argue that the thief is not a N.T. example of faith saving and or argue that he had immersion...even though it is obvious that he, while on the cross, recognized the Lordship of Jesus and Jesus acknowledged his faith....Hagar makes the bible and the chapter of faith and she had no immersion, John was called the greatest in the KINGDOM of GOD second only to JESUS and he seemingly had no IMMERSION and PAUL'S statement about the fact that HE WAS NOT SENT TO BAPTISE......if baptism is so important to biblical salvation NO WAY PAUL would say that while being led by the spirit as if it was necessary then PAUL would have said...I am sent to preach the GOSPEL and then to IMMERSE those believing that they might be saved....crazy for sure......!

Agree.

I was immersed. I was immersed in Christ by God himself.

I was immersed in water after..