What of the dinosaurs?

[Timeline]

Cycel probably knows that Institute for Creation Research offered Master's degrees in science up until four years ago. ICR advertised the courses with: "The goal of the ICR Graduate School is to provide teachers with the scientific knowledge necessary to actively engage their students and to prepare scientifically literate graduates." And Answers in Genesis had blurbs on their site promoting ICR's science program.

That all stopped four years ago because the Texas Higher Education Board maintained that ICR did not teach science, but instead taught young earth creationist propaganda. A federal judge agreed, decided against ICR, and also said in his opinion that ICR "is entirely unable to file a complaint which is not overly verbose, disjointed, incoherent, maundering and full of irrelevant information."

What was your question again?

I have no idea why Cycel doesn't waste a lot of time at your favorite websites.

I am not going to argue old earth/young earth because I honestly believe that the bible is vague about when the earth was created and if there was life before our "6,000 year period". The bible starts with the earth and waters already in existence. Then there was a seven (yes, 24-hour periods) day period where things are changed and other things are created. Day two and three involve separating waters. Day four, the creation of sun, moon, and stars. Day 5 and 6 fish, birds, animals, creeping things, and men were created.

But what I really wanted to address is the poor choice to back our current judicial system and government. They are either Godless, or cowards, or perhaps just wrong. They claim that evolution is the truth so anything else is a lie. They have made the evolution "THEORY" (that's right Cycel and Percepi) the only theory that can be taught. And they are wrong for doing it. Some want to call creation a theory, and they can call it that, but they need to put it back in our schools.

 

[Timeline]

I wanted to add (and I'm sure that someone already covered it) that whether or not "day" is specifically indicated by the word that was used, the "evening(s) and morning(s)" phrases should be enough to clear it up for us, imho.

 

[Calminian]

... The bible starts with the earth and waters already in existence. Then there was a seven (yes, 24-hour periods)....

Not exactly. The Bible states that the unformed and unfilled land existed on day one when they were created. And the waters mentioned in verse 2 are not the same as the sea mentioned in verse 9.

Moses summed up the proper interpretation of the creation week.

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them.....

Had he agreed with you that the heavens and earth existed prior, he could not have penned this sentence.

 

[JackH]

But what I really wanted to address is the poor choice to back our current judicial system and government. They are either Godless, or cowards, or perhaps just wrong. They claim that evolution is the truth so anything else is a lie.

Federal judges are appointed by the President and approved by the Senate.

So elect some Senators who deny evolution next week, that would appear to be the place for you to start.

Georgia had a chance to do so this time around. Paul Broun, a Republican House member, ran in the Senate primary, but he was soundly defeated. Broun got his 15 minutes of national fame for saying that evolution is a lie straight from the pits of hell.

Broun's mistake no doubt was not passing out on the campaign trail those little dinosaurs coexisted with man books by Ken Ham (Answers in Genesis). Or Dr. Dino (Kent Hovind) CDs. An interview with Dr. Dino from his prison cell supporting Broun might have got out the YEC vote in astronomical (the universe is 6000 years old) numbers.

 

[JackH]

But what I really wanted to address is the poor choice to back our current judicial system and government. They are either Godless, or cowards, or perhaps just wrong. They claim that evolution is the truth so anything else is a lie. They have made the evolution "THEORY" (that's right Cycel and Percepi) the only theory that can be taught. And they are wrong for doing it. Some want to call creation a theory, and they can call it that, but they need to put it back in our schools.

And after you convince the politicians, the next step would be to convince the teachers.

This is what the National Science Teachers Association says about the teaching of evolution in their position statement:

NSTA Position Statement: Evolution

The teachers don't seem to think much of the Young Earth Creationist propaganda, and rightly so.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Cycel probably knows that Institute for Creation Research offered Master's degrees in science up until four years ago. ICR advertised the courses with: "The goal of the ICR Graduate School is to provide teachers with the scientific knowledge necessary to actively engage their students and to prepare scientifically literate graduates." And Answers in Genesis had blurbs on their site promoting ICR's science program.

That all stopped four years ago because the Texas Higher Education Board maintained that ICR did not teach science, but instead taught young earth creationist propaganda. A federal judge agreed, decided against ICR, and also said in his opinion that ICR "is entirely unable to file a complaint which is not overly verbose, disjointed, incoherent, maundering and full of irrelevant information."

What was your question again?

I have no idea why Cycel doesn't waste a lot of time at your favorite websites.

They have been offering a Masters of Christian Education for a long time. They have science courses.
http://www.icr.edu/om

It is ASCI accredited: Association of Christian Schools International

I don't think I ever saw them try holding other accreditation, which would make their education credits invalid in any public school system anyway due to the creation science emphasis. That's OK. Many people have given up on public school. We know the huge advantages of Christian schools, though it is expensive without churches supplementing member tuitions. They meet state and federal standards of education, and take education far beyond that. Christian high school students qualify for a state approved diploma like any graduating public school student. Ours teaches the minimum required evolution stuff because it is required, and puts creation science alongside so students can see the perils of the secular side. They make time to do that well by eliminating useless courses. Public school students are brainwashed to fear creation science. We know because we recruit the best public school Christian teachers who know what is going on in public education.

Their Master's program is for any teacher with a bachelor or higher degree to seek a Masters for teaching in Christian schools. It is and never has been aimed at public school teachers, though of course they are welcome to enroll. The courses are all online, providing Christian schools worldwide the training their teachers want without leaving home.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

The teachers don't seem to think much of the Young Earth Creationist propaganda, and rightly so.

They don't have a choice. The government dictates what they can talk about. They pay a high price in many ways to get employed as teachers, then must stick to state approved curriculum regardless of personal beliefs, not only concerning creation or evolution. Even English teachers have to be very careful about which books can be assigned. The honest ones will tell you they hate having to turn their back on God, hoping He is forgiving for that. Many are Christians, go to church, but must lay all that aside when teaching. It is called false dualism.

 

[Timeline]

And after you convince the politicians, the next step would be to convince the teachers.

This is what the National Science Teachers Association says about the teaching of evolution in their position statement:

NSTA Position Statement: Evolution

The teachers don't seem to think much of the Young Earth Creationist propaganda, and rightly so.

How many times throughout our known history have scientists believed things that modern day scientists now believe to be false. Science builds upon current understand through current and previous observations and assumptions. I think that scientists should take fewer liberties with building upon assumptions. Evolution is a prime example.

And, as I said before, I don't believe that a stand can be made for a young earth. But I do suppose that God would have removed the celestial (sun, moon, stars) after the previous earth dwellers and then recreated them for our existence. I say that because I do believe the Genesis account of creation to be accurate and literally 24 hour days. I don't mind speculating, but I try not to put too much stock in speculation. Read the bible and pray for understanding. Young earth, Old earth....who cares. Evolution and the "proof" of it will continue to be rejected from this side of the screen.


sci·ence
ˈsīəns/
noun
noun: science

• the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
  "the world of science and technology"
  [TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
  [TR]
  [TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
  [TD]branch of knowledge, body of knowledge/information, area of study, discipline, field "the science of criminology"
  
  
  [/TD]
  [/TR]
  [/TABLE]
  
  
  
  • a particular area of this.
    plural noun: sciences
    "veterinary science"
    
    
    
  • a systematically organized body of knowledge on a particular subject.
    "the science of criminology"
    [TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
    [TR]
    [TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
    [TD]physics, chemistry, biology; More[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
    
    
    
    
  
  
  
  

 

[JackH]

How many times throughout our known history have scientists believed things that modern day scientists now believe to be false. Science builds upon current understand through current and previous observations and assumptions. I think that scientists should take fewer liberties with building upon assumptions. Evolution is a prime example.

And, as I said before, I don't believe that a stand can be made for a young earth.

I don't know that I disagree with your above statements.

But what is your definition of evolution, expressed in a similar fashion to how you defined science?

 

[JackH]

time to do that well by eliminating useless courses. Public school students are brainwashed to fear creation science.

This is the truth of the matter as far as I am concerned:

How Creationism Hurts Christian Colleges—And Their Students - The Daily Beast

To quote one paragraph:

"Unfortunately, many evangelicals get their ideas about origins from Answers in Genesis and the Discovery Institute, or from pastors who have reflexive anti-science worldviews. As a result they come to college believing that evolution is false and without meaningful evidence to support it; that evolution is an evil idea that has spawned everything from pornography to the Holocaust; and, of course, that evolution is utterly incompatible with Christian belief. This, of course, is intellectually dangerous - and a key factor in Christian students losing their faith in college."

 

[Word_Swordsman]

This is the truth of the matter as far as I am concerned:

How Creationism Hurts Christian Colleges—And Their Students - The Daily Beast

To quote one paragraph:

"Unfortunately, many evangelicals get their ideas about origins from Answers in Genesis and the Discovery Institute, or from pastors who have reflexive anti-science worldviews. As a result they come to college believing that evolution is false and without meaningful evidence to support it; that evolution is an evil idea that has spawned everything from pornography to the Holocaust; and, of course, that evolution is utterly incompatible with Christian belief. This, of course, is intellectually dangerous - and a key factor in Christian students losing their faith in college."

That last line "As a result, bewildered young people will continue to wander out of the church wondering if they really have to choose between science and their faith." is just one of the tenets of accredited college attitudes. It is not THE truth. It is truth to some people. A stronger truth is many college students reaching independence at a college after having decided back in high school they would depart from their Christian heritage for many reasons. A lot of that is because of a very poor Bible education, getting into church life too late to grow before leaving home, hearing too much social issue emphasis, lethargy of parents at home, too much Sunday recreation, discouragement of religion by a parent or sibling, By far most never heard about CvE in school. Most if not probably all never heard enough CvE there or in their churches to affect them plus or minus. I've been consistently attending and teaching in churches for the past 38 years. I have never heard a comment from a pulpit in those churches concerning CvE. Of course most have taught the Genesis account to a small degree, but I know way too many preachers that don't have a grasp of the creation thread in the Bible, much less spending more that 15 minutes researching evolution. Few can handle any of CvE because of ignorance of it, and of course inability to produce an intelligent statement to the congregation within the alotted one hour of preaching once a week. But I've never detected anyone disputing that in those churches. There have almost always been high school and college professionals in our membership, without a bit of complaint about preaching from any part of the Bible. They are intelligent enough to keep those separate, while not casting one away.

The fact is that once that degree is in hand, it helps get employed in a preferred profession. Once there we all come to the startling realization of how none care about either creation or evolution, even among all geologists I worked with. Even college researchers hired to help analyze problems had no reason to bring up any of that. It is the domain of science teachers.

Both my daughters went through 4 year colleges, both told me I needed to stop worrying about them not teaching creation origins. They grew up believing that, and still do. Professors that think that might become an issue in their classroom announce right away that neither of those lines of thinking will matter "Out there" in the world. Just get through my then return to your beliefs. A few made fun of their admissions by raised hand, but that was the end of war in the classroom.That's what I heard working for my BS degree, then again at Dartmouth one summer for training concerning wetlands management, and again and again at many CUE seminars over the years at several other universities. I have a Bachelor of Science with 5 minors working in a wide variety of science (natural resources) fields, and have never once found use of evolution or creation subjects. You do what you are trained by your employer to do. You re-certify each year at their expense. You do not offend anyone with controversial debate.

 

[JackH]

That last line "As a result, bewildered young people will continue to wander out of the church wondering if they really have to choose between science and their faith." is just one of the tenets of accredited college attitudes. It is not THE truth. It is truth to some people. A stronger truth is many college students reaching independence at a college after having decided back in high school they would depart from their Christian heritage for many reasons.

I repeatedly see statements in these forums like this: "But understanding these things might be very important for winning souls, Honestly the whole dinosaur thing before I was saved was a huge stumbling block for me not to mention the whole how old the earth thing also made me question the bible itself." That statement was made on this thread in post #7 by Blain, the person who started this thread.

 

[Calminian]

....And, as I said before, I don't believe that a stand can be made for a young earth. But I do suppose that God would have removed the celestial (sun, moon, stars) after the previous earth dwellers and then recreated them for our existence. ...

I amazed what people will read into the Bible to try to make it compatible with modern naturalistic ideas of origins.

No Timeline, there is no gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 to fit your millions of years. Your view is not compatible with Ex. 20:11. Rather than trying to harmonize the Bible with science, read it and trust what it says. Then you can judge the validity of modern humanistic ideas.

 

[Calminian]

That last line "As a result, bewildered young people will continue to wander out of the church wondering if they really have to choose between science and their faith." is just one of the tenets of accredited college attitudes. It is not THE truth. It is truth to some people. A stronger truth is many college students reaching independence at a college after having decided back in high school they would depart from their Christian heritage for many reasons. ...

Absolutely, in fact surveys show the doubts start in middle school, as christian parents are unable to answer the challenges of the kid's unbelieving science teachers. If you look at recent polling data, beliefs in essential doctrines like the deity of Christ and bodily Resurrection are falling at the precise rate belief in evolution is rising. Belief in evolution actually corresponds to rejection of the christian faith. And yet christians think it doesn't matter, since it's not an essential doctrine.

If you're a parent and you're telling your child he doesn't have to believe in Genesis or take it literally, they will inevitably apply that same standard to the rest of the Bible. Genesis is the foundation. When it goes, the whole Bible goes. Why would we expect our kid's to embrace the gospels when we don't embrace the history book that made the gospel necessary?

 

[ColinCat]

Absolutely, in fact surveys show the doubts start in middle school, as christian parents are unable to answer the challenges of the kid's unbelieving science teachers. If you look at recent polling data, beliefs in essential doctrines like the deity of Christ and bodily Resurrection are falling at the precise rate belief in evolution is rising. Belief in evolution actually corresponds to rejection of the christian faith. And yet christians think it doesn't matter, since it's not an essential doctrine.

If you're a parent and you're telling your child he doesn't have to believe in Genesis or take it literally, they will inevitably apply that same standard to the rest of the Bible. Genesis is the foundation. When it goes, the whole Bible goes. Why would we expect our kid's to embrace the gospels when we don't embrace the history book that made the gospel necessary?

For me, genesis is the hardest book to believe. A few pages in and we've already had a talking snake, man being made from dust, cursed apples etc. I'm not mocking, I just can't accept it.

When what is supposed to be the most important work ever compiled starts off in that fashion then to me it loses all credibility and reputation.

That's just my worthless opinion of course.

 

[Calminian]

For me, genesis is the hardest book to believe. A few pages in and we've already had a talking snake, man being made from dust, cursed apples etc. I'm not mocking, I just can't accept it.

Your opinion is not worthless, it's honest. I hear what you're saying.

I would just say that the new testament is equally filled with hard to believe miracles. A man dying and then rising from the dead in 3 days is at odds with everything we understand about life. And what about the resurrection of all the dead saints that came back to life after Jesus died? The only way it could happen is if there was a God.

And I would say the same is true with the creation account. If we truly are creatures, then a Creator must exist. And if a Creator must exist, He must be quite powerful to create such a vast universe. And if He's quite powerful and in complete control of the elements of the universe, making a talking snake would be a cake walk.

But if you don't believe in God, it all crumbles. Nothing seems possible. As the parable goes, if you don't believe what Moses wrote, you won't believe anything, even if a man comes to you after rising from the dead (Luke 16:31).

 

[ColinCat]

Your opinion is not worthless, it's honest. I hear what you're saying.

I would just say that the new testament is equally filled with hard to believe miracles. A man dying and then rising from the dead in 3 days is at odds with everything we understand about life. And what about the resurrection of all the dead saints that came back to life after Jesus died? The only way it could happen is if there was a God.

And I would say the same is true with the creation account. If we truly are creatures, then a Creator must exist. And if a Creator must exist, He must be quite powerful to create such a vast universe. And if He's quite powerful and in complete control of the elements of the universe, making a talking snake would be a cake walk.

But if you don't believe in God, it all crumbles. Nothing seems possible. As the parable goes, if you don't believe what Moses wrote, you won't believe anything, even if a man comes to you after rising from the dead (Luke 16:31).

I'm firmly in the "I don't know!" Camp and and I'm very comfortable with not knowing. There are aspects of the evolution argument I find hard to believe too.

Whatever the answer is, it has no impact on my day to day life. I've still got bills to pay, a nagging wife to keep off my back, a floor to mop and various other exciting tasks.

Come to think of it.. my sole purpose I'm life seems to be to keep her quiet. And the things I do, I do to get an easy life lol.

I've just realised i do have an authority after all

 

[JackH]

Absolutely, in fact surveys show the doubts start in middle school, as christian parents are unable to answer the challenges of the kid's unbelieving science teachers.

The majority of science teachers are not "unbelieving."

The challenge or confusion arises when the child is studying a subject like dinosaurs and the teacher and textbook say dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago while the parents and Sunday School say dinosaurs and humans coexisted less than 6,000 years ago.

65 million vs. less than 6,000 years is a rather large discrepancy to resolve.

And of course the discrepancy is even greater when you are talking about the earth and universe.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Your opinion is not worthless, it's honest. I hear what you're saying.

I would just say that the new testament is equally filled with hard to believe miracles. A man dying and then rising from the dead in 3 days is at odds with everything we understand about life. And what about the resurrection of all the dead saints that came back to life after Jesus died? The only way it could happen is if there was a God.

And I would say the same is true with the creation account. If we truly are creatures, then a Creator must exist. And if a Creator must exist, He must be quite powerful to create such a vast universe. And if He's quite powerful and in complete control of the elements of the universe, making a talking snake would be a cake walk.

But if you don't believe in God, it all crumbles. Nothing seems possible. As the parable goes, if you don't believe what Moses wrote, you won't believe anything, even if a man comes to you after rising from the dead (Luke 16:31).

it seems most parents we know let their children grow up watching cartoons with talking dinosaurs. I've learned not to fight the parents over such habits. I watch them watch it. They jump up and shout for the hero flying dinosaur with a woman's voice. They get into that as though actually there. They cry when the little boy dinosaur loses the race to the giant dino rat.
When it is over we usually have a Q&A session. I lost one of those sessions, telling them talking animals is all fantasy. "Wrong, Pappy! There was one that talked to Eve." What could I say to that? "Yes, you are right, I was wrong." 9 years old.

I doubt a public school kid that age would have answered that way. Even one that has been raised in church. I couldn't tell it right myself. I know churches are unfairly labelled "anti science". It isn't that, but it is miserable ignorance of science among most adults too long away from school days. They might remember dissecting a frog, but not a thing about evolution, or Linnaeus, or the name of the second President. I asked a man in church what he thought about teaching Genesis 1-3 to adults on Wed. nites while the kids did their thing. "Genesis? Why?" I said "for lots of reasons, since that section is commented on a lot in the NT, and we all need to know something about creation science so we can help the kids understand before they go off to college."
"Creation, yeah, God made the animals get on the boat and all that stuff. I say let's just listen to the preacher." I didn't tell on him, as he was nominated to be a deacon. We chose someone else. I ran it by the pastor who instantly said "No science stuff here."

 

[Word_Swordsman]

The majority of science teachers are not "unbelieving."

The challenge or confusion arises when the child is studying a subject like dinosaurs and the teacher and textbook say dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago while the parents and Sunday School say dinosaurs and humans coexisted less than 6,000 years ago.

65 million vs. less than 6,000 years is a rather large discrepancy to resolve.

And of course the discrepancy is even greater when you are talking about the earth and universe.

Jack, I've never heard a parent who was not a school teacher say anything like that. Most don't care. I didn't catch the 6,000 year idea until I was in my thirties. It would be interesting to see a poll in some churches asking how old do creation scientists say the earth is. You are likely to get answers like "Well, the dinosaurs died off millions of years ago, so they probably would say many millions?" That's all I got about that all the way through high school and college. Eventually I came across it online in a chat room. That's when I heard of such a thing as a creation scientist, from an evolutionist.