Matthew 10:33

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Sophia1993

Guest
#1
I was thinking about this. The christian girls who were kidnapped by boko haram who have converted to Islam, would they go to hell? I would assume the terrorists would make you say there is no god but Allah blah blah. You would deny Christ with your mouth at that point.. So would these girls go to hell for denying Jesus in front of man? Or does this verse only apply to certain situations?
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#2
I was thinking about this. The christian girls who were kidnapped by boko haram who have converted to Islam, would they go to hell? I would assume the terrorists would make you say there is no god but Allah blah blah. You would deny Christ with your mouth at that point.. So would these girls go to hell for denying Jesus in front of man? Or does this verse only apply to certain situations?
Only God can can be "piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." And nobody here can speak for God in such situations, especially involving terrorized girls, such as claiming a coerced lie is an unpardonable sin or the like.

Have faith that our Lord is righteous and just, is a God of love, leaving the judgment to Him. Nor would I listen to anybody who claims to speak for our unfathomable God in such a question, especially those self righteous who condemn, when our Lord Jesus has proved a God of great mercy.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
 
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Sophia1993

Guest
#3
So then why would Jesus say what he said in Matthew 10:33? Am I missing something?
 
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JesusIsAll

Guest
#4
So then why would Jesus say what he said in Matthew 10:33? Am I missing something?
No, it doesn't seem you're missing anything, rather pose a most difficult question! (Way above my pay grade...) All I could offer is an opinion, based on sin involving evil, a will to sin, not all things a matter of letter of the law: Rahab the harlot lied, to protect the Israelite spies from evil. I can see a difference between denying the Lord as a cognitive state of a willful mind and the denial of a terrorized girl, who likely doesn't mean a word of it. This is just my opinion, but also brings to mind this verse,

John 7:22-24 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

The great law is love and mercy, not self and self righteousness by letter of law,

Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh.

I can only speak for myself, that I'd never condemn a terrorized girl, and, other than this, assert also a belief that our Lord is worlds more just and merciful than we are,

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

 
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Rush

Guest
#5
So then why would Jesus say what he said in Matthew 10:33? Am I missing something?
My sister, remember we serve the most gracious God.
Think of Peter the Apostle, he denies Christ and calls down a curse if he is lying. But what did Jesus do to the Peter, the man who said he would follow Christ to his grave even if no one else would, the man who walked on water with him who healed people in Jesus name and cast out demons, the man who denied Jesus three times.... when Jesus come to Peter again after he had rose again, what did he say to Peter?.... do you love me? do you love me? do you love me?...... Lord, you know that I love you.

Peter was one of the mightiest men the world has ever known and even he denied Christ and the Lord accepted him back. Think then of the mercy and grace he will show children such as these. We serve an amazing wonderful God who has died for us, and because of that I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:38-39)

God bless your heart my sister. Pray for these girls that our God would deliver them. Keep a soft heart and pray for everyone. Much brotherly love.

~Rush
 
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Rush

Guest
#6
Ugh, the syntax of my message... ugh. Let that be a lesson to you kids, don't expect to write eloquently after 1am ;)
I do hope you heard what I was saying though.
 
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Sophia1993

Guest
#7
Thank you very much for your responses. I understand now :)
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#8
Would just like to add that, contrary to the continuous legalism bickering that goes on and those here on CC who would state they are now perfect, and this despite clear teaching in Romans 7 and 8: no Christian is perfect. We need the blood of Christ that washes away all sin, corruption of the flesh, in a fallen world, that does not end the day of salvation. As to these girls, these victims of great evil, who are not even being punished for sin, and what they may do to survive, it is always the case,

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#9
Ugh, the syntax of my message... ugh. Let that be a lesson to you kids, don't expect to write eloquently after 1am ;)
I do hope you heard what I was saying though.
No, that was very good!
 
R

Rush

Guest
#10
Bless you sister. Always keep your heart soft. Remember, Jesus died for us, and in doing so he adopted us into his family and gave us his Spirit. His Spirit is one with our Spirit that we might cry to our God, "Abba Father" ("Daddy" if you'd rather - abba father was the most intimate way to refer to ones dad back then) (Rom 8:15).
Pray to God as his daughter my sister. You have been adopted into God's family with all the rights of the Son :)
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
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#11
Sophia1993 said:
I was thinking about this. The christian girls who were kidnapped by boko haram who have converted to Islam, would they go to hell? I would assume the terrorists would make you say there is no god but Allah blah blah. You would deny Christ with your mouth at that point.. So would these girls go to hell for denying Jesus in front of man? Or does this verse only apply to certain situations?
Christians had a very similar problem under the reign of the Roman Emperor Diocletian. Long story short, when Diocletian persecuted the early church, many fell away from the faith. Once the persecution ended and Christianity became the de facto religion of the empire, many of those who had abandoned the faith wanted to return. The early church was divided between those who welcomed them back and those who wouldn't (the Donatists).

In any case, it's always a difficult question. As you say, Matthew 10:33 seems clear. Then again, you have Peter denying Jesus three times and he is still welcomed back.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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#12
Like most everything it goes less to what's on your lips and more to what's in your heart. Peter's lips may have said no no no but his heart never stopped saying yes yes yes. Not that what's on your lips isn't important, it is, but God hears your heart. And keep in mind that in later days Peter refused to deny and was killed for it.

We're told that in the end we will be taken captive before the rulers to speak the word of God and be killed for it. We are also told that at that time, no duh, many are going to turn away from Him. "Love not your lives unto death" doesn't it say? Where does one (or three) white lie(s) become a threat to our salvation?

God hears what's on our hearts. But what's on our lips has consequences. And ultimately out of one comes the other. This is a slippery slope, and only the gift of discernment from the Holy Spirit will show us the line at the time.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#13
I was thinking about this. The christian girls who were kidnapped by boko haram who have converted to Islam, would they go to hell? I would assume the terrorists would make you say there is no god but Allah blah blah. You would deny Christ with your mouth at that point.. So would these girls go to hell for denying Jesus in front of man? Or does this verse only apply to certain situations?
Peter denied the Lord three times before the rooster crowed and then went out and wept bitterly....he later writes 2 books of the N.T. and gives his life in martyrdom in Rome crucified upside down.....I believe this is applied when one rejects Jesus as savior and God and ultimately leaves this life lost...
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#14
So then why would Jesus say what he said in Matthew 10:33? Am I missing something?
Jesus either meant what He said, was lying, or the Bible is wrong in attributing these words to Jesus.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

I believe the words in this passage are accurate and are representative of what Jesus actually stated. If we deny Jesus before men then Jesus will deny us before God. That is what it says plain as day.

Jesus then goes on to imply that God must be our first love and if that is not the case then we are not worthy of Jesus. We must therefore take up our cross, deny ourselves, and actually FOLLOW Jesus. In doing this we lose our lives for we no longer live for ourselves. For some this means they literally lose their physical life due to persecution.

How did the early church react to such teachings? Well here are some examples of what was taught and what went on back then...

First up is a quote from Ireneaus of Lyons who was a student of Polycarp who, in turn, was a student of John the Apostle.

9. Wherefore the Church does in every place, because of that love which she cherishes towards God, send forward, throughout all time, a multitude of martyrs to the Father; while all others not only have nothing of this kind to point to among themselves, but even maintain that such witness-bearing is not at all necessary, for that their system of doctrines is the true witness [for Christ], with the exception, perhaps, that one or two among them, during the whole time which has elapsed since the Lord appeared on earth, have occasionally, along with our martyrs, borne the reproach of the name (as if he too [the heretic] had obtained mercy), and have been led forth with them [to death], being, as it were, a sort of retinue granted unto them. For the Church alone sustains with purity the reproach of those who suffer persecution for righteousness' sake, and endure all sorts of punishments, and are put to death because of the love which they bear to God, and their confession of His Son; often weakened indeed, yet immediately increasing her members, and becoming whole again, after the same manner as her type, Lot's wife, who became a pillar of salt. Thus, too, [she passes through an experience] similar to that of the ancient prophets, as the Lord declares, "For so persecuted they the prophets who were before you; " inasmuch as she does indeed, in a new fashion, suffer persecution from those who do not receive the word of God, while the self-same spirit rests upon her [as upon these ancient prophets].
10. And indeed the prophets, along with other things which they predicted, also foretold this, that all those on whom the Spirit of God should rest, and who would obey the word of the Father, and serve Him according to their ability, should suffer persecution, and be stoned and slain.
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 33, Sections 9 and 10.
Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 4 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

Here is something else Irenaeus wrote...

4. The Lord Himself, too, makes it evident who it was that suffered; for when He asked the disciples, "Who do men say that I, the Son of man, am? " and when Peter had replied, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God; "and when he had been commended by Him [in these words], "That flesh and blood had not revealed it to him, but the Father who is in heaven," He made it clear that He, the Son of man, is Christ the Son of the living God. "For from that time forth," it is said, "He began to show to His disciples, how that He must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the priests, and be rejected, and crucified, and rise again the third day." He who was acknowledged by Peter as Christ, who pronounced him blessed because the Father had revealed the Son of the living God to him, said that He must Himself suffer many things, and be crucified; and then He rebuked Peter, who imagined that He was the Christ as the generality of men supposed [that the Christ should be], and was averse to the idea of His suffering, [and] said to the disciples, "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whosoever will save his life, shall lose it; and whosoever will lose it for My sake shall save it." For these things Christ spoke openly, He being Himself the Saviour of those who should be delivered over to death for their confession of Him, and lose their lives.

5. If, however, He was Himself not to suffer, but should fly away from Jesus [Skinski note - context of this statement is that "Christ" and "Jesus" are one and the same and not separate entities as the Gnostics taught, thus "fly away from Jesus" is simply an allusion to the error of the Gnostics which Irenaeus is refuting], why did He exhort His disciples to take up the cross and follow Him,-that cross which these men represent Him as not having taken up, but [speak of Him] as having relinquished the dispensation of suffering? For that He did not say this with reference to the acknowledging of the Stauros (cross) above, as some among them venture to expound, but with respect to the suffering which He should Himself undergo, and that His disciples should endure, He implies when He says, "For whosoever will save his life, shall lose it; and whosoever will lose, shall find it. And that His disciples must suffer for His sake, He [implied when He] said to the Jews, "Behold, I send you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify." And to the disciples He was wont to say, "And ye shall stand before governors and kings for My sake; and they shall scourge some of you, and slay you, and persecute you from city to city." He knew, therefore, both those who should suffer persecution, and He knew those who should have to be scourged and slain because of Him; and He did not speak of any other cross, but of the suffering which He should Himself undergo first, and His disciples afterwards. For this purpose did He give them this exhortation: "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to send both soul and body into hell; " [thus exhorting them] to hold fast those professions of faith which they had made in reference to Him. For He promised to confess before His Father those who should confess His name before men; but declared that He would deny those who should deny Him, and would be ashamed of those who should be ashamed to confess Him.
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 18, Sections 4 and 5.
Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 3 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

Early church writings clearly reveal a consistent attitude that one is not to deny Jesus Christ, even in the face of persecution. A denial would prove that one fears men more than God and that one is also unwilling to pick up their cross and follow Jesus because they love their physical life more than God.

Here is an extract from the record of the martyrdom Polycarp. Polycarp was a student of John the apostle.

CHAPTER 9
9:1 But to Polycarp, as he entered the arena, there came a voice from heaven, saying, Be strong, and play the man, O Polycarp. And the speaker no man saw; but the voice those of our people who were present heard. And when he was brought in there was a great tumult, when men heard that Polycarp was apprehended.

9:2 Then, when he had been brought in, the proconsul asked him if he was Polycarp. And when he confessed, he would have persuaded him to deny, saying, Have respect unto thine age, and other things like these, as is their custom to say: Swear by the fortunes of Caesar; Repent; Say, Away with the Atheists. But Polycarp, when he had looked with a grave face at all the multitude of lawless heathen in the arena, having beckoned unto them with his hand, sighed, and looking up unto heaven, said, Away with the Atheists!
9:3 And when the proconsul pressed him, and said, Swear, and I will release thee, revile Christ; Polycarp said, Eighty and six years have I served him, and in nothing hath he wronged me; and how, then, can I blaspheme my King, who saved me?


CHAPTER 10

10:1 But when he again persisted, and said, Swear by the fortune of Caesar, he answered, If thou art vainly confident that I shall swear by the fortune of Caesar, as thou suggestest, and pretendest to be ignorant of me who I am, hear distinctly, I am a Christian. But if thou desirest to learn the scheme of Christianity, give me a day to speak, and hearken unto me.

10:2 The proconsul said, Persuade the people. But Polycarp said, I have thought thee indeed worthy to receive explanation, for we have been taught to render such honour as is fitting, and as does not injure us, to the powers and authorities ordained by God; but those I consider not worthy that I should make my defence before them.



CHAPTER 11
11:1 But the proconsul said unto him, I have wild beasts; I will deliver thee unto them, unless thou repentest. But he said, Call them, for repentance from the better to the worse is impossible for us; but it is a good thing to change from evil deeds to just ones.

11:2 But he said again unto him, I will cause thee to be consumed by fire if thou despisest the wild beasts, unless thou repentest. But Polycarp said, Thou threatenest me with fire that burneth but for a season, and is soon quenched. For thou art ignorant of the fire of the judgment to come, and of the eternal punishment reserved for the wicked. But why delayest thou? Bring whatever thou wishest.
The Martyrdom of Polycarp (Hoole translation)

Here is what Eusebius wrote in his church history...

33. For those who had recanted at their first arrest were imprisoned with the others, and endured terrible sufferings, so that their denial was of no profit to them even for the present. But those who confessed what they were were imprisoned as Christians, no other accusation being brought against them. But the first were treated afterwards as murderers and defiled, and were punished twice as severely as the others.

34. For the joy of martyrdom, and the hope of the promises, and love for Christ, and the Spirit of the Father supported the latter; but their consciences so greatly distressed the former that they were easily distinguishable from all the rest by their very countenances when they were led forth.
35. For the first went out rejoicing, glory and grace being blended in their faces, so that even their bonds seemed like beautiful ornaments, as those of a bride adorned with variegated golden fringes; and they were perfumed with the sweet savor of Christ, so that some supposed they had been anointed with earthly ointment. But the others were downcast and humble and dejected and filled with every kind of disgrace, and they were reproached by the heathen as ignoble and weak, bearing the accusation of murderers, and having lost the one honorable and glorious and life-giving Name. The rest, beholding this, were strengthened, and when apprehended, they confessed without hesitation, paying no attention to the persuasions of the devil.
Eusebius Church History
CHURCH FATHERS: Church History, Book V (Eusebius)

We see here how those who denied Christ were disgraced and lost the life giving name. Yet hope was not lost whilst they were still breathing for the following is said to have occurred...

41. But Blandina was suspended on a stake, and exposed to be devoured by the wild beasts who should attack her. And because she appeared as if hanging on a cross, and because of her earnest prayers, she inspired the combatants with great zeal. For they looked on her in her conflict, and beheld with their outward eyes, in the form of their sister, him who was crucified for them, that he might persuade those who believe in him, that every one who suffers for the glory of Christ has fellowship always with the living God.

42. As none of the wild beasts at that time touched her, she was taken down from the stake, and cast again into prison. She was preserved thus for another contest, that, being victorious in more conflicts, she might make the punishment of the crooked serpent irrevocable; and, though small and weak and despised, yet clothed with Christ the mighty and conquering Athlete, she might arouse the zeal of the brethren, and, having overcome the adversary many times might receive, through her conflict, the crown incorruptible.
43. But Attalus was called for loudly by the people, because he was a person of distinction. He entered the contest readily on account of a good conscience and his genuine practice in Christian discipline, and as he had always been a witness for the truth among us.
44. He was led around the amphitheater, a tablet being carried before him on which was written in the Roman language 'This is Attalus the Christian,' and the people were filled with indignation against him. But when the governor learned that he was a Roman, he commanded him to be taken back with the rest of those who were in prison concerning whom he had written to Cæsar, and whose answer he was awaiting.
45. But the intervening time was not wasted nor fruitless to them; for by their patience the measureless compassion of Christ was manifested. For through their continued life the dead were made alive, and the witnesses showed favor to those who had failed to witness. And the virgin mother had much joy in receiving alive those whom she had brought forth as dead.
46. For through their influence many who had denied were restored, and re-begotten, and rekindled with life, and learned to confess. And being made alive and strengthened, they went to the judgment seat to be again interrogated by the governor; God, who desires not the death of the sinner, Ezekiel 33:11 but mercifully invites to repentance, treating them with kindness.
47. For Cæsar commanded that they should be put to death, but that any who might deny should be set free. Therefore, at the beginning of the public festival which took place there, and which was attended by crowds of men from all nations, the governor brought the blessed ones to the judgment seat, to make of them a show and spectacle for the multitude. Wherefore also he examined them again, and beheaded those who appeared to possess Roman citizenship, but he sent the others to the wild beasts.
48. And Christ was glorified greatly in those who had formerly denied him, for, contrary to the expectation of the heathen, they confessed. For they were examined by themselves, as about to be set free; but confessing, they were added to the order of the witnesses. But some continued without, who had never possessed a trace of faith, nor any apprehension of the wedding garment, Matthew 22:11 nor an understanding of the fear of God; but, as sons of perdition, they blasphemed the Way through their apostasy.
Eusebius Church History
CHURCH FATHERS: Church History, Book V (Eusebius)
 
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Nov 26, 2011
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#15
So whilst we read of the horrors that occurred back in those times we see the grace of God empowering people to victory and we also see those whom are victorious leading others to victory through their example.

Which brings us back to what Jesus taught His disciples...

Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

...which the disciples taught us...

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
 

Markum1972

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2013
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#16
I was thinking about this. The christian girls who were kidnapped by boko haram who have converted to Islam, would they go to hell? I would assume the terrorists would make you say there is no god but Allah blah blah. You would deny Christ with your mouth at that point.. So would these girls go to hell for denying Jesus in front of man? Or does this verse only apply to certain situations?
Let's also remember those that are refusing to deny Christ and are being beheaded. Which are called blessed and holy?

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#17
Backsliding into sin can be forgiven (James 5:19-20), but denying the Lord while having tasted of the Spirit is a different matter. You can't openly deny Jesus Christ as your Savior for a while and then come back (Hebrews 6:4-6). When Peter denied the Lord, He did not receive the Holy Spirit yet.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#18
He that shall love his life shall lose it and He that shall lose his life shall save it.
 
May 15, 2013
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#19
I was thinking about this. The christian girls who were kidnapped by boko haram who have converted to Islam, would they go to hell? I would assume the terrorists would make you say there is no god but Allah blah blah. You would deny Christ with your mouth at that point.. So would these girls go to hell for denying Jesus in front of man? Or does this verse only apply to certain situations?
If they were slaves, then they aren't guilty. God had came to set everyone free from bondage (Free-will) and so that then He will be able to judge. It has to come from the heart.
 
May 15, 2013
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#20
A concubine is a slave that is under an agreement, they does what they are order to do; but a bride or a wife comes willing.