Conditional Salvation

[SeaBass]

thanks, so why are you here professing a christian can live in sin, When John and yourself just admit they can not?

I have never said a Christian can live in sin. John says a Christian can commit sins but cannot continue to live in sin.

 

[SeaBass]

Why doesn't the Lord do this or that? Tough question, SeaBass. Once upon a time there was just the LORD, Father, Son & Holy Spirit in perfect harmony. Why did He allow sin to come into existence, pain, suffering, the Lake of Fire? His ways are past understanding. Why did he love Jacob & hate Esau before either was born?

Once upon a time 2 men were drowning:
For the first, a lifeguard saw him at once in trouble. The lifeguard swam out to him & said, "Stop thrashing & grabbing; relax & I will save you. But the drowning man was quite strong & always had relied on his own strength. So he grabbed ahold of the lifeguard with a death-grip, would not let go, & they both drowned.

The 2nd was a weak man. When the lifeguard got to him, he just relaxed & did nothing & was saved!

In salvation the saved person is passive (-ed verb). The Savior is active; He saves. Works are forbidden:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, & that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus . . . .

The unsaved man has no good works & can do no good works.
There is no fanciful division of works that can save & works that can't save -- no works save.
All works of obedience are righteous works; all righteous works are works of obedience. The creation of an unbiblical categorical distinction is bogus.

All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.
He only came to call sinners, not to call the righteous.
It is not the self-righteous Pharisee who is saved, but the Publican who cries out,
God be merciful to me a sinner.

Come ye sinners, tired & weary, weak & wounded, sick & sore;
If you tarry till you're better,
You will never come at all;
Not the righteous, not the righteous, sinners Jesus came to call.

According to eternally-grateful all in the water are unsaved and none in the water can do any works in order to be pulled out and saved.

All in the water therefore are alike and in the same condition.

From what I read above you do not give an explanation as to why God pulls some out and leaving others to drown. Randomness choosing from among like drowners?

 

[SeaBass]

I don't buy that interpretation, for if the present tense must mean continual, then then you must argue that Christians continually sin because James say that "For in many things we all stumble." Present tense.

John makes sense as saying that the new nature of the Christian cannot sin. As Romans says, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. The Christian has 2 egos, old man flesh & new man.

John says that the reason why "cannot sin" is the new creation by God; the seed abides.

9 Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.

If you go around & try to insert continually before every verb in the NT when it is present tense, you will see that this continual interpretation is false. Present can be used when action is continual, but present does not necessarily imply continual.

If 'cannot sin' means impossible to sin then John contradicts himself in 1 Jn 1:7-10.

The law may say you cannot drive over 55mph but that does not mean it is impossible for you try drive over 55mph.

What John is saying is a Christian cannot CONTINUE (present tense) live in a state where he is CONTINUOUSLY driving over 55mph. The Christian can on occasion sin and drive over 55mph but cannot continue in a state driving over 55 mph and expect to be saved.


One before becoming a Christian lives (present tense) in adultery. Upon becoming a Christian, he cannot continue (present tense) to sin by continuing living in adultery and expect to be saved.

 

[posthuman]

From what I read above you do not give an explanation as to why God pulls some out and leaving others to drown. Randomness choosing from among like drowners?

from what i read in Romans 9, Paul does not "give an explanation" to satisfy us as if we were become the judges of God either.

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder,
“Why have you made me like this?”
(Romans 9:20)

from what i read in Job, God does not "give an explanation" to this righteous man either, as if Job were become the judge of the Almighty.

Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
(Job 38:2)

so who is SeaBass to demand God give him an account of why He shows mercy to one and not to another? does the Lord run all His plans by SeaBass to make sure they are reasonable before He sends out His decree?

 

[SeaBass]

see, Seabass depends on his own power. He rejects the power and ability of God to keep us in him.. Is this what scripture teaches? I think not.

God does not put man in Christ against man's will and keep man in Christ against man's will.

Men of their own volition through obedience (Heb 5:9; Mk 16:16; Gal 3:27) are put in Christ. And man by His own volition can quit obeying and remove himself from Christ.

Jn 10:27 Christ's sheep are the ones of their own volition hear and follow and because of that continue faithfulness to Christ God will not allow them to be snatched out of His hand. Yet if one of his own volition quits hearing and following then his unfaithfulness removes himself from God's hand.

------------

If all men in the water are alike with all drowning and have no role in his own salvation/cannot chose to obey/cannot choose to hear and follow Christ, then how does God go about deciding which ones He will pull out and put in Christ and which ones to leave to drown?

 

[SeaBass]

Not of works lest anyone should boast.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by Gods mercy

Justified by faith apart from works.

just three of the many many verses which say otherwise

Either the bible contradicts itself. Or your one part of one verse is misinterpreted by yourself.

Again, if "not of works" of Eph 2:9 excludes ALL works then you have a contradiction with Eph 2:10 that says God before ordained Christians to walk in good works. You cannot get rid of works God before ordained with EPh 2:9. So one cannot be a Christian without walking in good works. Paul would also contradict himself in Rom 6:16-18 where he put obedience BEFORE salvation/justified.

So your 'interpreataton" of Eph 2:9 has a major flaw and should be rejected

 

[SeaBass]

No, I said a person who is saved is seen as sinless, their sins were redeemed, he was justified by christ. As the mercy seet on the ark shows. The blood was sprinkled, and the sin of the people was not seen, it was hidden. Christs blood is what redeems us, Not our good works and attempt to be sinless.

that is massivelly different than saying they are sinless. No one is sinless. thus the law condemns everyone (yes even me at this very moment,)

that is why we better be under grace and not law. for by the law, we have no hope, zero zip nada.

You said before 'your saved sinless".

Now you say one who already is saved is seen as sinless.

What verse says his sins were redeemed by doing nothing?

Of all men are alike in drowning and cannot do any works to be saved, then how is it determined which ones will be redeemed and which will not?

 

[SeaBass]

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
(John 6:37)

the only "conditional" i see here is that the Father gives us to the Son.

it's not of ourselves, but by grace through faith, the gift of God.

Which ones does the Father give? The ones that obey or disobey Him? Or are the ones the Father give chosen out of pure randomness?

 

[SeaBass]

Originally Posted by Atwood

Does this look conditional?

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.


Yes it is conditional, lets look at this scripture.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
.
That are in Christ Jesus, that is the condition. You have to be a sheep to have salvation and no condemnation, and our Lord tells us in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John what the follower ( sheep ) of the Lord will do and look like.

.....and to qualify as one of Christ sheep (Jn 10:27) you must choose to CONDITIONALLY continue to hear and follow Christ

 

[posthuman]

Which ones does the Father give? The ones that obey or disobey Him? Or are the ones the Father give chosen out of pure randomness?

which one of us was not a disobedient enemy of God when Christ found us?

were you without sin when the Father gave you into the hand of His Christ?

 

[SeaBass]

from what i read in Romans 9, Paul does not "give an explanation" to satisfy us as if we were become the judges of God either.

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder,
“Why have you made me like this?”
(Romans 9:20)

from what i read in Job, God does not "give an explanation" to this righteous man either, as if Job were become the judge of the Almighty.

Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
(Job 38:2)

so who is SeaBass to demand God give him an account of why He shows mercy to one and not to another? does the Lord run all His plans by SeaBass to make sure they are reasonable before He sends out His decree?

Rom 9:20 is directed at the Jews who would accuse God of being unjust and unrighteous for casting fleshly Israel off.

The bible does give a reason of why some are pulled out while others are not. It is not a reason the faith onlyists here will believe..
If you cannot give a reason, then you have a very large gaping hole in your theology that you cannot explain. Because you cannot explain it or do not know does not mean I cannot explain it or I cannot know.

 

[SeaBass]

which one of us was not a disobedient enemy of God when Christ found us?

were you without sin when the Father gave you into the hand of His Christ?

Then we would all be alike in being sinners. So how does God choose between like sinners as to which ones to give to Christ or not?

 

[kennethcadwell]

.....and to qualify as one of Christ sheep (Jn 10:27) you must choose to CONDITIONALLY continue to hear and follow Christ

which one of us was not a disobedient enemy of God when Christ found us?

were you without sin when the Father gave you into the hand of His Christ?

Yes we were all disobedient and headed to spiritual death before Christ came.
His death and resurrection now gives us a way to escape that spiritual death.
To do this we must believe in Him as our Lord and Savior, and through faith do as He instructed us to do. And that is to repent of our sins, be baptized, confess Him before others, and continue to walk in His commandments.

He says clearly that if you do not walk in His commandments then you are not His.

 

[posthuman]

Then we would all be alike in being sinners. So how does God choose between like sinners as to which ones to give to Christ or not?

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
(Romans 9:14-16)

Rom 9:20 is directed at the Jews who would accuse God of being unjust and unrighteous for casting fleshly Israel off.

i hope one day you read this book, especially this chapter, as i so often quote it to you.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
(Romans 9:17-19)

Paul actually makes the comment in 9:20 giving reference to Pharoah, whose heart was hardened. in the larger context he is giving justification for God to have cast off Israel - and this justification is the sovereignty of God, for He also hardened the hearts of the Jews so that Christ could be handed over to them and crucified for our sake. but the immediate context and reference is to a Gentile king who was never a branch to be removed, but a bit of kindling purposed for the fire from the beginning. a man who is willing to hold God to account will say "how can God condemn the one who He purposed to be disobedient?" -- and so Paul entertains and destroys such presumption by appealing to sovereignty, saying "who are you to answer back to God?"
Pharoah is not Israel. this text is not only about Israel. it has application to all of us. i see no reason to be so dismissive of it, as though God is not sovereign over every last atom of His creation.

He will have mercy on who He will have mercy.

The bible does give a reason of why some are pulled out while others are not. It is not a reason the faith onlyists here will believe..
If you cannot give a reason, then you have a very large gaping hole in your theology that you cannot explain. Because you cannot explain it or do not know does not mean I cannot explain it or I cannot know.

if my "explanation" is the mercy of God, and yours is self-righteous works, it does not follow that you have a greater understanding and i have none, and the mercy of God is quite great enough to cover any "gaping hole" you care to dig, though i have reason to doubt whether you are able to build for yourself a bridge to cover just any chasm.

faith produces obedience. obedience does not produce faith. (Romans 9:30-32)
we are saved unto works prepared for us beforehand. (Ephesians 2:10)
we do not prepare ourselves by works to be afterwards saved. (Galatians 3:3-11)

if He has had mercy on me, what am i to continue on in disobedience?
but if we love Him, we will follow His commandments.

 

[posthuman]

The bible does give a reason of why some are pulled out while others are not.

deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
(1 Corinthians 5:5)

can you "give a reason" why such a disobedient man as this might be able to have his spirit saved on that day?

i can:

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
(Exodus 33:19)

 

[Atwood]

Yes we were all disobedient and headed to spiritual death before Christ came.
His death and resurrection now gives us a way to escape that spiritual death.
To do this we must believe in Him as our Lord and Savior, and through faith do as He instructed us to do. And that is to repent of our sins, be baptized, confess Him before others, and continue to walk in His commandments.

He says clearly that if you do not walk in His commandments then you are not His.

Where does it say that repenting of sins is necessary to be saved?

(Repent means a change of mind from not trusting to trusting Christ; metanoia does not mean by itself to be sorry for sins.)

For by grace you have been saved through faith, . . . NOT OF WORKS.

Water immersion never saves.

Is that what you mean by "be baptized"? If so, why don't you say immersed?
Continue to walk in His commandments:

This approach is salvation by works,
but your works this way will only condemn you.

The order is
1) sinner
2) trust in the Savior (faith),
3) salvation (new birth & gift of eternal life),
4) works.

Trusting in your works is idolatry.

 

[newbirth]

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
(Romans 9:14-16)

.

this is God's mercy to all men....and it depends on you to repent...unless you want God to repent for you...
Acts 17:29-31King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[Atwood]

Rom 9:20 is directed at the Jews who would accuse God of being unjust and unrighteous for casting fleshly Israel off.

Rom 9:20 is bread for the sack of all men.

The bible does give . . .

Here is only some of what the Bible gives:

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto
all them who believe;
for there is no distinction;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

[All them who believe, rules out any other thing essential besides believe.]

for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 4:1ff

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to
everyone who believes.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

[EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES rules out anything essential added to faith.]

For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]


1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have never said a Christian can live in sin. John says a Christian can commit sins but cannot continue to live in sin.

so then how can a christian live in disobedience? Is that not living in sin?? Make up your mind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, if "not of works" of Eph 2:9 excludes ALL works then you have a contradiction with Eph 2:10 that says God before ordained Christians to walk in good works. You cannot get rid of works God before ordained with EPh 2:9. So one cannot be a Christian without walking in good works. Paul would also contradict himself in Rom 6:16-18 where he put obedience BEFORE salvation/justified.

So your 'interpreataton" of Eph 2:9 has a major flaw and should be rejected

lol.. there is no contradiction. only in your head.

As you said, God foreordained that we will walk in good works. ie, they WILL DO THEM

Eph 2 10 said we were created FOR GOOD WORKS (our power comes from God not self. they WILL BE DONE.

Your right you can not get rid of them, Some one who is saved WILL DO THEM, it is not a question of if. That is why James said if you have no work, your faith is dead. The context is not work, it is faith. Is your faith real or not?

James 1: [SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

the context is a person who CLAIMS to have faith. Not a person who has faith alone, thats your false interpretation

James proved he was a liar. It is not about works, it is about faith. if faith is real. Works will follow. why? God foreordained us to walk in works, God created us for works.