Conditional Salvation

[SeaBass]

oh it does not? I even posted it for ya but you did not see it.

They departed from us, but they were NEVER OF US. For IF THEY WERE OF US, They NEVER WOULD HAVE DEPARTED

Great words of the apostle john.

Where does John say they were NEVER of us?

John said ".... that they might be made manifest that they were (present tense) not all of us." John here is saying they were not of us at the present time they went out.


"Such a verse as this, of course, is made use of as a crutch for the proposition that a person "once saved is always saved"; however, it should be carefully noted that John did not here write of the false teachers that "they never had been of us," but that at an unspecified previous time, they were not. This is even more clear in the last clause where the word is not that they had never been of us, but that they are not of us. Their departure from the faith became final at some point prior to their leaving; but there is no suggestion by the apostle that those who departed had never been truly converted at the beginning of their Christian association. The fallen angels were not wicked from the beginning but became so; and Judas was not wicked when the Lord chose him as an apostle, but he fell "through transgression."
Coffman Commentary

Even if John said they were NEVER of us that in no way proves eternal security or the excuse "was not saved to begin with" for how can one turn back unto perdition if he was ALWAYS in perdition?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In post 741 you posted "Me, I was drowning, And I trusted God to pull me out of the water, and stopped trying to save myself. "

If God pulled you out, then I simply asked why doesn't God pull every man out and save every man?

And if you read I answered.

Some people do not want saved, they do not think they are drowning.

Some want to continue to try to save themselves (as a rescuer, you can not rescue someone trying to save themselves. they will drown both of you, which is why I use that example. In reality, God is not going to try to save you if your still trying to save yourself. he will let you continue till you give up and beg for him to save you.

See, your false teaching has you in an another bind. You do not want man to have any works, any role in own salvation > no role in getting himself out from drowning for you want God to do it all while man stays passively still in the water doing nothing. So if man cannot do anything and God alone can save him from drowning then those that drown do so for God failed to pull them out. What was special about you and your doing no works that God would pull you out while God leaves others, who also like you do no works, are left to drown?

No, it is not that I do not want man to work, it is that in reality, no work will cover any sin.

scripture says ONLY blood can remove sin, so how can your work remove 1 sin? it can't. The thought that all of the hard work YOU have done, and WILL do will have no bearing on your eternity pisses you off. why? Your too proooud, you still have not repented. Your faith is in YOURSELF and YOUR WORKS. and Not CHRIST and HIS WORK

Thus instead of being like the apostles. your trying to be like the pharisees.

 

[SeaBass]

He also said those born of God can not sin.

so you have a major problem.

if a christian can not live in sin, then he can not live in disobedience. or is that to hard for you to comprehend?

your stating something the apostle john said is impossible. why do you argue with him?

John is not saying it is impossible for a Christian to sin for that contradict what he said in 1 Jn 1:1-10. "Cannot sin" is present tense meaning one who becomes a Christian cannot continue to live in sin not that it is impossible for a Christian to sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

John is not saying it is impossible for a Christian to sin for that contradict what he said in 1 Jn 1:1-10. "Cannot sin" is present tense meaning one who becomes a Christian cannot continue to live in sin not that it is impossible for a Christian to sin.

thanks, so why are you here professing a christian can live in sin, When John and yourself just admit they can not?

 

[SeaBass]

so in other words, You made a claim against me, but can;t prove it.

Thanks, Go away please. You lie about others, you make false claims about them, and when confronted, you can never prove your things against them are true.

Yes, A condition is to receive the gift. I have said it over and over (another false claim against me) another reason for you to GO AWAY!

You, and others, have falsely argued that free gifts cannot come with conditions for meeting the conditions means one is earning the gift.

This is what you have not proven. I have a thread that show examples form the bible that free gifts come with conditions but meeting those conditions earn nothing:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html


It is very evident that man-made theologies can force those that believe in them to purposely misunderstand some simple truths.

(I see the hostility in your posts that comes from your frustration in your inability to defend man-made doctrines.)

 

[kennethcadwell]

Where does John say they were NEVER of us?

John said ".... that they might be made manifest that they were (present tense) not all of us." John here is saying they were not of us at the present time they went out.


"Such a verse as this, of course, is made use of as a crutch for the proposition that a person "once saved is always saved"; however, it should be carefully noted that John did not here write of the false teachers that "they never had been of us," but that at an unspecified previous time, they were not. This is even more clear in the last clause where the word is not that they had never been of us, but that they are not of us. Their departure from the faith became final at some point prior to their leaving; but there is no suggestion by the apostle that those who departed had never been truly converted at the beginning of their Christian association. The fallen angels were not wicked from the beginning but became so; and Judas was not wicked when the Lord chose him as an apostle, but he fell "through transgression."
Coffman Commentary

Even if John said they were NEVER of us that in no way proves eternal security or the excuse "was not saved to begin with" for how can one turn back unto perdition if he was ALWAYS in perdition?

Plus besides that I think that people forget to point out is that if you look at the scripture before that it shows who the they are that was not of us. It talks about those who are a form of the antichrist, meaning the only reason was to come in and become knowledgeable about the word in order to pervert it.
Those who walk in the way of the Lord, but then turn back to willful sin are not versions of the antichrist. They are just lost, or misinformed individuals who were either drawn or pulled away from the truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You, and others, have falsely argued that free gifts cannot come with conditions for meeting the conditions means one is earning the gift.

This is what you have not proven. I have a thread that show examples form the bible that free gifts come with conditions but meeting those conditions earn nothing:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html


It is very evident that man-made theologies can force those that believe in them to purposely misunderstand some simple truths.

(I see the hostility in your posts that comes from your frustration in your inability to defend man-made doctrines.)

lol..

So I admited that a condition of faith is required. (even though I have never denied it)

Yet you STILL say I am angry

Dude you just contradicted yourself. So I again, I ask, why bother? You do that so often, why do you not try to learn, instead of continually making yourself look bad?

 

[Atwood]

In post 741 you posted "Me, I was drowning, And I trusted God to pull me out of the water, and stopped trying to save myself. "

<strong>[video=youtube;D87TmVua0s0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87TmVua0s0[/video]

If God pulled you out, then I simply asked why doesn't God pull every man out and save every man?

Why doesn't the Lord do this or that? Tough question, SeaBass. Once upon a time there was just the LORD, Father, Son & Holy Spirit in perfect harmony. Why did He allow sin to come into existence, pain, suffering, the Lake of Fire? His ways are past understanding. Why did he love Jacob & hate Esau before either was born?

Once upon a time 2 men were drowning:
For the first, a lifeguard saw him at once in trouble. The lifeguard swam out to him & said, "Stop thrashing & grabbing; relax & I will save you. But the drowning man was quite strong & always had relied on his own strength. So he grabbed ahold of the lifeguard with a death-grip, would not let go, & they both drowned.

The 2nd was a weak man. When the lifeguard got to him, he just relaxed & did nothing & was saved!

In salvation the saved person is passive (-ed verb). The Savior is active; He saves. Works are forbidden:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, & that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus . . . .

The unsaved man has no good works & can do no good works.
There is no fanciful division of works that can save & works that can't save -- no works save.
All works of obedience are righteous works; all righteous works are works of obedience. The creation of an unbiblical categorical distinction is bogus.

All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.
He only came to call sinners, not to call the righteous.
It is not the self-righteous Pharisee who is saved, but the Publican who cries out,
God be merciful to me a sinner.

Come ye sinners, tired & weary, weak & wounded, sick & sore;
If you tarry till you're better,
You will never come at all;
Not the righteous, not the righteous, sinners Jesus came to call.

 

[Atwood]

John is not saying it is impossible for a Christian to sin for that contradict what he said in 1 Jn 1:1-10. "Cannot sin" is present tense meaning one who becomes a Christian cannot continue to live in sin not that it is impossible for a Christian to sin.

I don't buy that interpretation, for if the present tense must mean continual, then then you must argue that Christians continually sin because James say that "For in many things we all stumble." Present tense.

John makes sense as saying that the new nature of the Christian cannot sin. As Romans says, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. The Christian has 2 egos, old man flesh & new man.

John says that the reason why "cannot sin" is the new creation by God; the seed abides.

9 Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.

If you go around & try to insert continually before every verb in the NT when it is present tense, you will see that this continual interpretation is false. Present can be used when action is continual, but present does not necessarily imply continual.

 

[SeaBass]

Well, I'm sorry that that makes just 2 things that you & I have disagreed on.

1st was your belief that a person that had just gave their lives completely to The LORD by faith but CAN'T get to water for some reason or another before they die are not saved. Sigh!

And 2ndly, now this statement quoted above.

You Do Not Know people Until you've been with them LONG ENOUGH. [not yelling at all, Brother - just need to get the main point out there].

I agree with that command to those who are of age that know WHO & what they have just commited their life to, to be baptized by immersion. BUT, I've Church hopped for all the years that I've been saved because I've moved so very many times since then that I've had no choice and actually have had The LORD to lead me to whatever churches were in those towns. Consevative all --- Methodists, Baptist, AoG, CoG, CoC, many non-denominationals with varied beliefs in each, PCA, Etc., and I found that each were full [not totally filled. Which are? None.] again, full with sincerely born-of-the Spirit of Christ humans in them. You'll ask me how I know they were/are saved .... by their love for HIM, for even their enemies but especially for the household of faith and how they lived their lives but most of all for their love of The Word of GOD. You can't 'counterfeit' His genuine Love & Love for His Word.

Just as I do not believe in the 'sinless-perfection' theory - I do not believe in the 'doctrinal perfection' belief neither.

We will Still be Learning all Through Eternity!

Bless you, Friend.

My point is how can there be so many religious groups that believe things contradictory to each other and yet all be scripturally right? It's not possible. If they all contradict each other yet all claim they are going the bible then that is just an indictment of the bible being a book full of contradictions written by a very confused author. If anyone thinks they can be saved by following all the man-made contradictions they are really fooling themselves. Does God's truth [that does not contradict itself] save men or will man's contradictions save men? What you see among all these religious groups is not God's truth/Christianity but a theistic humanism...believe what you want to and be saved and it does not even matter if what you believe contradicts what others believe. Here you have man determining what truth is for himself instead of accepting God's word as the sole and final authority as the truth.

Lies are wrapped in contradictions not truth. Satan is the father of lies so Satan is the father of all the contradictions that exists among the various religious groups. So I will not accept these various groups with all their contradictions and if that upsets them then they will just have to be upset. I am not going to go along with Satan's lies just to get along.

As I have said before, if Christianity were truly made up of all these groups with their non-truth / non-God's word contradictions then Christianity, as far as I am concerned, is one sorry, sick joke. I would not waste my time on it nor would I waste my time listening to any of these so called "Christians" telling me I am in sin and lost and need Jesus when these hypocrites cannot even agree among themselves as to what is right. They better get themselves in line before going and telling others that they are wrong and lost. They carry no truth, no credibility, no authority to tell others they are wrong when they cannot even agree among themselves what is right.


Men try to create scenarios where one cannot be baptized but try to get him saved anyway. These scenarios do not change God's word. If they did, then we can sit here all day making up all kinds of scenarios to go by and will no longer need God's word to follow. Those that make up these scenarios do not think water baptism is need under ANY scenario but they thing if they can make up some "hard case" then they can change God's word using that hard case scenario.


How much doctrinal error can one be in and still be saved?

 

[SeaBass]

Does this look conditional?

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

Yes, it is conditional. No condemnation to those that are conditionally in and conditionally remain in Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

how can you claim they condemn it, when it is what they preach.


denying it does not make it a fact.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified...."

The bible preaches it, men and their man-made doctrines deny it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, it is conditional. No condemnation to those that are conditionally in and conditionally remain in Christ.

see, Seabass depends on his own power. He rejects the power and ability of God to keep us in him.. Is this what scripture teaches? I think not.

 

[SeaBass]

Your doing a poor job of it.

You misquote them, Say they teach something they do not. Misquote the word of God. and quite fankly, ake yourself look bad.

so for the last time.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FAITH ALONE.




No, what is impossible is being sinless. I am not sinless, you are not sinless. So if what you just claimed is true, no one could ever be saved.

Again, you said a person is saved sinless yet never did say how a sinner that does unrighteousness can be sinless therefore saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified...."

The bible preaches it, men and their man-made doctrines deny it.

Not of works lest anyone should boast.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by Gods mercy

Justified by faith apart from works.

just three of the many many verses which say otherwise

Either the bible contradicts itself. Or your one part of one verse is misinterpreted by yourself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, you said a person is saved sinless yet never did say how a sinner that does unrighteousness can be sinless therefore saved.

No, I said a person who is saved is seen as sinless, their sins were redeemed, he was justified by christ. As the mercy seet on the ark shows. The blood was sprinkled, and the sin of the people was not seen, it was hidden. Christs blood is what redeems us, Not our good works and attempt to be sinless.

that is massivelly different than saying they are sinless. No one is sinless. thus the law condemns everyone (yes even me at this very moment,)

that is why we better be under grace and not law. for by the law, we have no hope, zero zip nada.

 

[posthuman]

Yes, it is conditional. No condemnation to those that are conditionally in and conditionally remain in Christ.

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
(John 6:37)

the only "conditional" i see here is that the Father gives us to the Son.

it's not of ourselves, but by grace through faith, the gift of God.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Originally Posted by Atwood

Does this look conditional?

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.


Yes it is conditional, lets look at this scripture.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
.
That are in Christ Jesus, that is the condition. You have to be a sheep to have salvation and no condemnation, and our Lord tells us in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John what the follower ( sheep ) of the Lord will do and look like.

 

[SeaBass]

And if you read I answered.

Some people do not want saved, they do not think they are drowning.

Some want to continue to try to save themselves (as a rescuer, you can not rescue someone trying to save themselves. they will drown both of you, which is why I use that example. In reality, God is not going to try to save you if your still trying to save yourself. he will let you continue till you give up and beg for him to save you.



No, it is not that I do not want man to work, it is that in reality, no work will cover any sin.

scripture says ONLY blood can remove sin, so how can your work remove 1 sin? it can't. The thought that all of the hard work YOU have done, and WILL do will have no bearing on your eternity pisses you off. why? Your too proooud, you still have not repented. Your faith is in YOURSELF and YOUR WORKS. and Not CHRIST and HIS WORK

Thus instead of being like the apostles. your trying to be like the pharisees.

Every one in the water is drowning and not doing works then they are all ALIKE, no difference between any of them.

Are you now saying to make YOU different from the others you have a role in your own salvation by YOU WANTING to be saved?

And if totally depravity is true, then how/why can any in the water want to be saved.

 

[Atwood]

The first question is What do you mean by salvation?

Some confuse salvation with judgment. While judgment is by works, salvation is by grace through faith. Some think of salvation as an award one gets after some judgment, a reward for good works.
But salvation is really about a poor sinner crying out, God be merciful to me a sinner, trusting the Savior, and in response the loving Savior, who died for His sins, saves the man, giving him a new birth, new nature, indwelling of the Spirit, Baptism of the Spirit in to the Body of Christ, forgiveness of sins, and eternal life (including freely given all things).

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.

The basic condition is that the loving God keeps His word!
I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish.

The promise is to whosoever believes -- whosoever ruling out adding anything essential to salvation.
The promise is to all who believe -- all rules out adding anything essential to salvation.
The promise is to everyone who believers, not some subsection of them who add in something else.