What of the dinosaurs?

[Tintin]

Mr. Sword starts from an incorrect presumption that his false biblical interpretations are "Christian." They are not. He promotes frauds and lies associated with reality denial copied from creationist websites. He assumes a position of sanctimony and moral superiority that reminds me of of Matthew 6:5.

I have not started a thread here yet at Christian Chat, but I am inclined to do one on the particular falsehood that creationists are "more" Christian than people grounded in reality.

1. First, there are more Christians who are not young earth creationists than Christians who are young earth creationists.

2. Second, there are literally billions of creationists who are not Christian.

3. Third, Young Earth Creationism is anti-scriptural.

But, this thread is about Dinosaurs. Mr. Sword has nothing productive to share about dinosaurs.

1. This proves nothing. The truth is rarely popular.

2. I don't believe a word of it. Who are these billions of people?

3. No, it's not. It makes the most sense, it's consistent, it treats the Bible as the final authority, it looks to the Bible to interpret the world, rather than the world to interpret the Bible.

Why should we even listen to you on such matters? You're not even a Christian?

 

[ColinCat]

Okay, but that's bias, not an evaluation of the evidence. And who decides what's extraordinary?

You're basically saying that if historical evidence supports your world view you believe it, and if it doesn't you don't. But this is not an evidential approach, that's a religious approach and circular reasoning at best.

Its all about the claims. If history says some guy fought a few battles or whatever then its more believable than people turning into salt.

This goea back to the dragon in the garage analogy.

If I say I've got a pet dog in my garage then your more likely to believe me. Regardless of if I do or not, its still a reasonable claim to make and can usually be accepted without evidence.

If i said I had a fire breathing dragon in my garage then your less likely to believe me becauase its not a reasonable claim and you would need some sort of evidence to convince you.

See, its all about the believability of the claim and the standard of evidence required to meet it.

 

[Tintin]

So convince me with some evidence.

For someone who claims they're a Christian, you sure seem to have a low opinion of God's Word. What truth is there if there were pagan god and goddess beliefs and then the true God beliefs came about? How does that even work? God has to be the Creator of every good thing. Then sin corrupts those good things.

 

[JackH]

For someone who claims they're a Christian, you sure seem to have a low opinion of God's Word. What truth is there if there were pagan god and goddess beliefs and then the true God beliefs came about? How does that even work? God has to be the Creator of every good thing. Then sin corrupts those good things.

So convince me that God's Word says that dinosaurs were created around 6,000 years ago. YECs have been trying on this thread with propaganda from sources like ICR, AiG, and Dr. Dino. I don't see it. Likewise with dinosaurs coexisting with humans. Every time a YEC claim is made by your clueless leaders, it gets debunked, particularly of late by Dr. Hurd.

The Pope doesn't agree with you. Pat Robertson doesn't agree with you. In fact, Robertson said Ken Ham (AiG) makes Christians look foolish with this 6,000-year world nonsense. I mention those two names because everybody knows who they are. The point is, the majority of Christians do not agree with you.

You YECs do not have a monopoly on the truth of the Word of God, despite your repeated claims to the contrary.

 

[JackH]

And sure enough, if you ignore the facts, if you cannot do simple math, Vernon R. Cupps, Ph.D. will give you "the answer you’re looking for." Look how well it worked on Mr. Sword. He went looking for the answer he wanted, and there was a professional creationist waiting to sell it to him. Win! Win!

Hey Mr. Sword:

Okay, you touted this Dr. Cupps as the next great YEC savior.

Dr. Hurd debunked his propaganda right here on this thread for all to see.

Your turn.

Either respond or go get Dr. Cupps.

Some of you other YECs feel free to jump right in and help Mr. Sword.

 

[john832]

Still waiting to see the mountains of fossil evidence for intermediate species. Where are all of the fossils showing partially formed appendages and organs? Where are the intermediates between primates and man? There ought to be many more of those than fully formed separate species.

Wonder where they are?

 

[JackH]

Still waiting to see the mountains of fossil evidence for intermediate species. Where are all of the fossils showing partially formed appendages and organs? Where are the intermediates between primates and man? There ought to be many more of those than fully formed separate species.

Wonder where they are?

Why in your 6,000-year-old world would you consider any evidence offered of transitional fossils when you have stated that there is absolutely nothing that could cause you to deviate from a 6,000-year-old world?

Despite the mountain of evidence that dinosaurs became extinct more than 65 million years ago and never coexisted with humans.

What we have here is irreconcilable differences, apparently.

65 million years ago v. 6,000 years ago.

That's a pretty big gap to reconcile, 'eh?

And some transitional fossils are going to influence you to change your 6,000 years?

What would make you change your 6,000 years?

How about a video from Dr. Dino (Kent Hovind) in the federal prison cell where he is currently incarcerated repenting of his lying (and 58 felonies) and also saying he was wrong about cowboys riding T. rex in the Dino Rodeo?

 

[john832]

Why in your 6,000-year-old world would you consider any evidence offered of transitional fossils when you have stated that there is absolutely nothing that could cause you to deviate from a 6,000-year-old world?

Despite the mountain of evidence that dinosaurs became extinct more than 65 million years ago and never coexisted with humans.

What we have here is irreconcilable differences, apparently.

65 million years ago v. 6,000 years ago.

That's a pretty big gap to reconcile, 'eh?

And some transitional fossils are going to influence you to change your 6,000 years?

What would make you change your 6,000 years?

How about a video from Dr. Dino (Kent Hovind) in the federal prison cell where he is currently incarcerated repenting of his lying (and 58 felonies) and also saying he was wrong about cowboys riding T. rex in the Dino Rodeo?

OK, convince me. Show me the mountains of evidence of intermediate, transitional species. If life has existed on earth for millions of years, there should be mountains of evidence.

If we originated from some primate, hundreds of thousands of years ago, there surely should be tons of fossils of intermediate species between that original ancestor and modern man. We are talking trillions upon trillions here. None of 'em were preserved?

 

[ColinCat]

OK, convince me. Show me the mountains of evidence of intermediate, transitional species. If life has existed on earth for millions of years, there should be mountains of evidence.

If we originated from some primate, hundreds of thousands of years ago, there surely should be tons of fossils of intermediate species between that original ancestor and modern man. We are talking trillions upon trillions here. None of 'em were preserved?

I always find it a amusing when a thesit demands evidence for something.

The ultimate irony.

 

[john832]

I always find it a amusing when a thesit demands evidence for something.

The ultimate irony.

Well, if you have any evidence of evolution, why don't you produce it?

 

[john832]

I always find it a amusing when a thesit demands evidence for something.

The ultimate irony.

The ultimate irony is one who denies faith yet expects others to have faith to believe a theory with no evidence.

 

[Calminian]

Its all about the claims. If history says some guy fought a few battles or whatever then its more believable....

But this is also subjective. It may be hard for you to believe some Bible stories, but it's much harder for most people to believe there is no God and all this is an accident. For me, it would take too much faith not to believe in a theistic God, which is why I don't stumble on miracles as you do.

But this is all subjective thinking. What I'm asking you to do is think objectively and evaluate evidence objectively. Try to put your bias on the back-burner while evaluating the evidence.

In your thinking right now, you're operating on pure faith. Any evidence that fits your belief systems gets accepted and any that does not gets rejected. I look at claims of supernaturalism more evidentially. I don't accept any claimed miracle blindly, but I don't dismiss them blindly (a priori) either. I need to first evaluate the evidence and see of the claim is credible.

 

[ColinCat]

But this is also subjective. It may be hard for you to believe some Bible stories, but it's much harder for most people to believe there is no God and all this is an accident. For me, it would take too much faith not to believe in a theistic God, which is why I don't stumble on miracles as you do.

But this is all subjective thinking. What I'm asking you to do is think objectively and evaluate evidence objectively. Try to put your bias on the back-burner while evaluating the evidence.

In your thinking right now, you're operating on pure faith. Any evidence that fits your belief systems gets accepted and any that does not gets rejected. I look at claims of supernaturalism more evidentially. I don't accept any claimed miracle blindly, but I don't dismiss them blindly (a priori) either. I need to first evaluate the evidence and see of the claim is credible.

OK, give me some evidence to evaluate and let's go from there.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I have been looking for this documentary to share with ya'll for the past few days when radiometric dating came up. Heh, it took quite some digging, but I have finally found it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koYWznEIV50
[video=youtube;koYWznEIV50]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koYWznEIV50[/video]

Lol, now don't let the fact this is hosted on UFOTV youtube channel turn you off. This documentary was made by the same people that made the Emmy Award winning documentary, Mystery of the Sphinx. The video features scientists from the major institutions that perpetrate the old earth mythology (ie: US Geological Survey, Peabody, Berkeley, etc.)

The central plot revolves around some artifacts (namely arrowheads and spear points) recovered in Mexico in the late 1900s AD. This documentary is full of interesting things. I reckon it to be something of an intra-old earther debate. Originally the artifacts were thought to be about 10,000 years old. However, the scientists did various tests on the artifats and dirt around them and come up with random results ranging from 20,000, 100,000, 200,000, and even 400,000 years old using mostly radiometric methods. For myself this documentary was key in showing me proof that radiometric dating is invalid by reason of the random and varied results. However, even figuring in that radiometric dating is invalid still leaves open the question of; exactly how old are these artifacts?

Also interesting is the more humanistic themes in this documentary, much like the Bone Wars. It is a story of suppression of evidence, loss of evidence, gangster shakedowns of workers, international relations (the finds were in Mexico and the majority of scientists are Americans), the firing of scientists for controverting the Old Earth Mythology with an even older earth hypothesis, and an overall picture of the extreme dubiousness which calls into question the credibility of the modern scientific and academic communities. Much like the Bone Wars, despite my own personal disagreement with the theories of the scientists, I feel some pity for just how terribly the scientists are treated by their own institutions.

 

[john832]

1. This proves nothing. The truth is rarely popular.

2. I don't believe a word of it. Who are these billions of people?

3. No, it's not. It makes the most sense, it's consistent, it treats the Bible as the final authority, it looks to the Bible to interpret the world, rather than the world to interpret the Bible.

It also presents the most believable and intelligent explanation for the existence of a creation we don't even fully understand.

Why should we even listen to you on such matters? You're not even a Christian?

Well said.

 

[Dr_GS_Hurd]

Still waiting to see the mountains of fossil evidence for intermediate species. Where are all of the fossils showing partially formed appendages and organs? Where are the intermediates between primates and man? There ought to be many more of those than fully formed separate species.

Wonder where they are?

They are in museums and universities around the world. I was the director of a small natural history museum. We had uncounted fossils still in plaster casts with just a note as to the contents. We had a warehouse literally filled to the rafters.

In a situation like that (which is common BTW) you only use your display floor space for the "snapshots" of "important moments." Consider a video of your entire life. Would anyone watch it? I would not waste 64 years to watch your every day. I might watch 6 minutes if you were interesting enough.

As for the human ancestors, I posted several good resources for a popular audience on the "Caveman" thread. But there is no website for amateurs that will teach you the professional understanding of the human, and non-human primate. I taught that in colleges for many years, and I am still learning.

 

[Dr_GS_Hurd]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koYWznEIV50
[video=youtube;koYWznEIV50]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koYWznEIV50[/video]

This is from the same people that want you to believe that Homo erectus migrated to the new world, and flowers cure cancer. Oh, and Atlantis is real, and there is life on Mars.

I have better video games.

But it does illustrate two points, there is some commercial source that will pander to any whaco idea is there is money to be made. And that creationism has a low of whaco followers. There are UFO believers, and in this "Forbidden Archaeology" theme, there are the Hindus:

Michael A Cremo, Richard L. Thompson
[FONT=&quot]1998 "Forbidden Archeology: The Hidden History of the Human Race" Bhaktivedanta Book Publishing[/FONT]

 

[Dr_GS_Hurd]

Re: 2. Second, there are literally billions of creationists who are not Christian.

2. I don't believe a word of it. Who are these billions of people?

There are more non-Christian creationists than Christian young earth creationists.

Muslim
Harun Yahya (Adnan Okbar)
2007 "Atlas Of Creation" Istanbul: Global Publishing

Hindu
Michael A Cremo, Richard L. Thompson
1998 "Forbidden Archeology: The Hidden History of the Human Race" Bhaktivedanta Book Publishing

Neo-pagan/Native American
Deloria, Vine Jr.
1997 “Red Earth, White Lies” Golden Colorado: Fulcrum Publishing


Even here in the USA, there are more Christians that are not YEC than there are Christians that believe such nonsense: Stones and Bones: Gallop numbers on Creationism: 2 more years, and 3 more data points.

 

[JackH]

What I'm asking you to do is think objectively and evaluate evidence objectively. Try to put your bias on the back-burner while evaluating the evidence.

Dang, now that is funny.

This from somebody who posts videos from Dr. Dino's son as an example of evaluating evidence objectively.

Dr. Dino's son got his education pertaining to dinosaurs hanging out at his father's Dinosaur Adventure Land, where Eric Hovind played fetch the ball with a real T. rex.

 

[Brainfreeze]

This is from the same people that want you to believe that Homo erectus migrated to the new world, and flowers cure cancer. Oh, and Atlantis is real, and there is life on Mars.

I have better video games.

But it does illustrate two points, there is some commercial source that will pander to any whaco idea is there is money to be made. And that creationism has a low of whaco followers. There are UFO believers, and in this "Forbidden Archaeology" theme, there are the Hindus:

Michael A Cremo, Richard L. Thompson
1998 "Forbidden Archeology: The Hidden History of the Human Race" Bhaktivedanta Book Publishing

Everything you posted is irrelevant to the fact, the dating method doesn't work. It's a guess, you want people to have faith in a guess... It's fact, that Jesus saved my life, and changed me, Fact!