If Man Has No Role In His Own Salvation......

[dcontroversal]

I agree, One who is not a doer is a fake and a fraud, And has utterly no faith in God.

But doing the word will never save you, Call out on the name of the lord (in faith) and you will be saved. If your trying to work for it, Your trust is in self. Not God. Your faith is just as dead in God as a person who does nothing because he does not trust God.

One thing that they cannot seem to grasp for sure.....I call it Cainology...offer up your works instead of faith into the blood like Abel!

 

[kennethcadwell]

I disagree, We can see by the people we talk to how hard it is just to have faith and trust God, it seems to easy, so can;t be true (which means in reality it is very hard.)

Now the wide gate, How many people are working to try to earn it, by whatever means they believe must be done, Between the catholics and all their sacraments, and the water regenerationals.. A diverse group of people, all who can not even agree. In fact. It would be easier to work to earn it, because then at least you do not just have blind faith, you have something you can see.

Yes there are those like the Catholic's who add things to do for salvation, but there are also others who water down and take away from the gospel and try and simplify it to simple believe He existed, died on the cross, and rose on the third day. That is it, all you need for salvation.

But God says both, to not add or take away from His words.
When you read what Jesus says, He says that those who have faith and believe in Him will keep and obey His commandments. This means you are not just a hearer, but a doer of the word.
Those who are just hearers, but leave out the do part are not saved for the truth is not in them. If the truth was in them then they would obey and keep the Lords words and commands.

 

[kennethcadwell]

One thing that they cannot seem to grasp for sure.....I call it Cainology...offer up your works instead of faith into the blood like Abel!

That is for those who want to earn their way into heaven by works, not those who believe what the bible states that one's faith is evident by their works.
The truth in you produces obedience, and obedience produces works. No works means no obedience, no obedience means the truth is not in you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your right it is through Jesus Christ, by no other does one achieve salvation.
The thing is that in order to be in Jesus Christ, your faith and belief in Him to be your Lord and Savior is to also believe and obey what He taught.
If you do not obey and follow His teachings then you are still denying Him.
People want to go by just believe, it is that simple, but Jesus tells us in His teachings what believing in Him requires and looks like. Each time it shows that those who are faithful and obedient to Him and His teachings get eternal life.

This is why their will be wailing and gnashing of teeth at the judgment, because there will be some who thought they were saved but because they only had mere belief and did not follow His teachings as well will be cast away.

what you speak of is an easy belivism gospel (which is devoid of faith) also called licentiousness. If someone does not agree why are a sinner and needs saved from that lifestyle. then he does not know God.

The sad part is, the legalist is just as bad, proclaiming works MUST be followed or one is not saved, instead of realising someone who has true faith in Christ, and has been given the spirit as a seal, a teacher, and discipliner will have works. for they have truly been born of God.

As jesus said, There will be many who did many works in his name, who will be told depart for I never knew you. He was not talking to people who just believe, for they did no work in jesus name, they did nothing, he is talking to legalists, who think they are saved, because they were doers of the word. and not because they just trusted completely in Christ (they had more trust in self)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One thing that they cannot seem to grasp for sure.....I call it Cainology...offer up your works instead of faith into the blood like Abel!

cain was the first one to offer the fruit of his labor to God. He was angry when God rejected his heartfelt offering.

Just like legalists get angry at us when we say their works (heartfelt or not) are useless to save them.

 

[dcontroversal]

That is for those who want to earn their way into heaven by works, not those who believe what the bible states that one's faith is evident by their works.
The truth in you produces obedience, and obedience produces works. No works means no obedience, no obedience means the truth is not in you.

Your still blending works with faith to keep or add to salvation...Galatians teaches faith plus works to gain or keep or facilitate salvation is a false gospel.....having begun in the spirit are you now made complete by the flesh (works)

 

[kennethcadwell]

what you speak of is an easy belivism gospel (which is devoid of faith) also called licentiousness. If someone does not agree why are a sinner and needs saved from that lifestyle. then he does not know God.

The sad part is, the legalist is just as bad, proclaiming works MUST be followed or one is not saved, instead of realising someone who has true faith in Christ, and has been given the spirit as a seal, a teacher, and discipliner will have works. for they have truly been born of God.

As jesus said, There will be many who did many works in his name, who will be told depart for I never knew you. He was not talking to people who just believe, for they did no work in jesus name, they did nothing, he is talking to legalists, who think they are saved, because they were doers of the word. and not because they just trusted completely in Christ (they had more trust in self)

There are spiritual works that must be done.
The problem with this area is that to many still want to put the written ordinances of the mosaic law that we are not under, and the works that is talked about that by following will not save you. They want to put this with the spiritual works, as would be God's moral values/laws, as the same.

When you see in the bible speaking of the works or laws we are not under, or does not save. It is not speaking of God's moral laws, it is speaking of the written ordinances of the mosaic law.
When Jesus said to depart from Him to those who did works. It was because they did it for themselves. For self gain, appreciation, notice, and self wealth. They did not do it out of love and faith for Him.

Walking in love is faith in Him, that produces spiritual works. Doing things for others in need, esteeming others more than self, and obeying the Lord's teachings to repent, be baptized, and confess Him before others not hiding your faith.

Easy belivism teaches believe only, or faith only, and that repentance is no longer needed for all was accomplished at the cross.
Problem with this is that Jesus Himself said repent of your sins or perish, and confess Him or He will deny you.

Easy belivism wants to teach believe He existed, died on the cross, and rose on the third day.
That's it, your now saved so go on your way and do what you want and live how you want.
Problem again is that you can not live willfully sinning and still be saved, nor can you return to willful sin and be saved.

 

[newbirth]

if salvation could be gained through works, than Christ died in vain

we are saved by grace through faith ...and faith without works is dead ...

 

[newbirth]

Your still blending works with faith to keep or add to salvation...Galatians teaches faith plus works to gain or keep or facilitate salvation is a false gospel.....having begun in the spirit are you now made complete by the flesh (works)

faith without works is dead....and we are saved by grace through faith....there is works of the law and works of faith

 

[kennethcadwell]

Your still blending works with faith to keep or add to salvation...Galatians teaches faith plus works to gain or keep or facilitate salvation is a false gospel.....having begun in the spirit are you now made complete by the flesh (works)

Once again Galatians is speaking of the written ordinances of the mosaic law, that by doing the works of following the mosaic law does not save. Which is true.
Galatians is not speaking of God's moral laws of knowing right from wrong. Living your life living in love with all your heart, soul, and mind to the Lord our God, loving your neighbor as yourself, and even loving your enemies.
By living in love you fulfill all the law, just like the Lord said. For you become perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, by walking in love.

Faith produces obedience, obedience produces works, and works produce prof that one is saved in front of others.
If you have faith in the Lord, works done out of love for Him will be evident. Those who do not have faith or a false sense of faith do to false teaching will have no works that are evident in their life, or even continue to live in willful sin as false teachers have told their follower they can do.

One does not work with out the other. Faith without works is dead, and a dead faith does not lead to salvation.

One can say they have faith in the Lord, but does not repent of their sins = not saved, no salvation

One can say they only do good things ( works ), but don't have faith in the Lord = not saved, no salvation

You see here how the out come is the same in both situations, good works does not save as you can see in the second situation, but also as you can see in the first situation saying you have faith in the Lord but don't repent of sins does not have salvation either.

 

[kennethcadwell]

faith without works is dead....and we are saved by grace through faith....there is works of the law and works of faith

Exactly true, this is one thing that I have constantly tried to show others.
The difference between the works of the mosaic law, and the works of faith. ( Things done in love for our Lord )

 

[prove-all]

cain was the first one to offer the fruit of his labor to God. He was angry when God rejected his heartfelt offering.

Just like legalists get angry at us when we say their works (heartfelt or not) are useless to save them.

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him?
Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

-both had works and offering, what holy day was this to present themselfs ?

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after
the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

-heartfelt offering not by cain

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain,
by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts:
and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

 

[newbirth]

Let me repeat what the bible order

Faith produce salvation and good work.

Catholic order

Faith and work produce salvation.

It is huge different. it is reversal.

this is the order ...faith comes by hearing ......the goodness of God leads us to repentance .....we are saved by grace through faith ...faith without works is dead...

 

[newbirth]

One thing that they cannot seem to grasp for sure.....I call it Cainology...offer up your works instead of faith into the blood like Abel!

show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works....

 

[prove-all]

this is the order ...faith comes by hearing ......the goodness of God leads us to repentance .....we are saved by grace through faith ...faith without works is dead...

the way to salavation

-We are reconciled to God by the death of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:10).

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,
much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

-by his goodness the Father brings us to and grants us repentance (Romans 2:4).
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering;
not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

-After repentance, we are to be baptized. (Acts 2:38).

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

-It is the Spirit that actually begets us as sons of God (Romans 8:9, 14, 16-17).

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

-the begetting agent that comes from God, the Holy Spirit is the earnest
or down payment, of our salvation (Ephesians 1:14; Romans 8:16).

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of
the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

-We are baptized into the truth by God’s power (Matthew 3:11; John 1:33).

3I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I,
whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom
thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

-That Spirit, God’s power, actually dwells in us after baptism (Acts 2:38; 4:8, 31; Ezekiel 36:27).

27And I will put (my spirit) within you, and (cause you to walk) in (my statutes),
and ye shall (keep my judgments, and do them).

- was given to witness to the world.

8 But ye shall (receive power), after that (the Holy Ghost) is come (upon you):
and ye shall be (witnesses) unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria,
and unto the (uttermost part) of the earth.

-teach and brings things to our remembrance through the power of His Spirit (John 14:26).

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance,
whatsoever I have said unto you.

-God will give His Spirit to those who ask for right reason.(Luke 11:13).

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children:
how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

-God reveals His secrets to us through the Holy Spirit (Luke 2:26)

 

[prove-all]

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only,
but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.​

 

[notuptome]

show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works....

Faith does not require proof. Faith proves itself if it is of God. It is the witness of the Holy Spirit not the efforts of man that give evidence to Godly faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[newbirth]

Faith does not require proof. Faith proves itself if it is of God. It is the witness of the Holy Spirit not the efforts of man that give evidence to Godly faith.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

did I ask for proof ...I said show me your faith without works.... Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

I can see Abraham's faith.....

Hebrews 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

I can see Noah's faith

show me yours....the one through which you were saved ....

 

[SeaBass]

Then you just keep working for that which God has said you cannot earn. You earn only the wages of sin. The gift of eternal life is by grace not by works. You deceive only yourself.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

There's the straw man for you cannot earn what God has already offered you for free, but you can work to meet the conditions that God put upon His free gift without earning that gift.

 

[dave_in_KWC]

Wow! What a THREAD!!!

I'm certain that only Holy Spirit (directly or indirectly) can bear witness of Jesus and His Saving Grace and His Truth to those who have "ears to hear". Our responsibility, as I see in His Word, is to participate (as sinners) and come into Christ and His Kingdom (as we are convinced in Spirit & in Truth); to submit by Faith to the revelation of who Jesus is and what our responsibility is towards Him: The Lord of All!

People will argue over what the Godhead's responsibility and ours is in the process of salvation and redemption and sanctification until He comes again... Meanwhile, we are told that they (the yet-to-be-saved) will know us by our LOVE. I want to offer a caution and challenge, please...

Does debating these issues here lead to LOVE and LIFE for those who will read your words here? Because there are many watching our attitudes and behaviour and looking for LOVE (us being in Christ). What do they find when they read this thread (and other such "disputes")? Do we care more about being "RIGHT" than we do about our "family" being in peace, love and in one accord?

How beautiful it is when we dwell together in unity, the psalmist says... I've been amongst Christians now since 1979 and rarely have I seen any sinner come to salvation or even get closer to the Truth of who Jesus is by Christians arguing over doctrine... I believe the Body of Christ is in a terrible state of fracturedness and the ONLY thing I have EVER seen that changes this state of painful conflict, hardheartedness and argumentativeness is an OUTPOURING of Holy Spirit! So let's CRY out to God for love, patience, forbearance & humility to prefer our brethren as better than ourselves... for in walking in Jesus' Spirit, together, our LOVE WILL be seen and we will do mighty exploits in His name!

Be careful when you go to another to point out their sin or error, for you too could get mired in your own carnality (working definition: trying to be a Christian without being IN HIM)...