If Man Has No Role In His Own Salvation......

[prove-all]

God is calling out only his firstfruits now,

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.

but the rest are blinded still, till living waters goes out to all man kind​

 

[notuptome]

There's the straw man for you cannot earn what God has already offered you for free, but you can work to meet the conditions that God put upon His free gift without earning that gift.

You underscore the error. God does not give a gift with strings on it. God gives freely of the water of eternal life. It is quite capricious to think that one can earn or deserve a free gift.

By Gods grace I am what I never could be.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

did I ask for proof ...I said show me your faith without works.... Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

I can see Abraham's faith.....

Hebrews 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

I can see Noah's faith

show me yours....the one through which you were saved ....

That is between the Savior and me. I witness and testify of Christ not me. Hear His words not mine.

In Christ I am more than I could ever be.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[newbirth]

That is between the Savior and me. I witness and testify of Christ not me. Hear His words not mine.

In Christ I am more than I could ever be.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

in other words you cannot....

 

[prove-all]

For many are called(not all), but few are chosen.

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:​

​

 

[SeaBass]

Faith only - per James - is not genuine because claims to have faith but has no works demonstrates that this is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith. Where is the evidence of this claim that can be seen? Works are the demonstrative evidence that one has genuine faith and is saved. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of genuine faith and not the means of our salvation. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates that there is no root.

I see that you avoided answering my question so I will ask you again. Is obeying righteousness/the truth/doing good accomplished from a lost condition or a saved condition? Is this produced by a living faith or a dead faith?

Nobody said that one is saved while they continue to practice sin and not righteousness (1 John 3:10). Children of God practice righteousness and not sin BECAUSE they are a child of God, not to become a child of God. Children of the devil practice sin and not righteousness BECAUSE they are a child of the devil, not to become a child of the devil. John did not mention a third camp that consists of children of God who continue to practice sin and NOT righteousness.

Salvation is not possible until one FIRST believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, THEN he becomes righteous - his FAITH is ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (Romans 4:5). Then working righteousness is the fruit of salvation.

That's not what Peter said. A lost person does not work righteousness but unrighteousness. One must be saved through faith FIRST then one works righteousness from a righteous heart. [/COLOR]Peter prefaced his message with a frank admission. He previously believed that God's favor was limited to the nation of Israel. Now he realized that God did not respect a man's person because of his nationality. Working righteousness is the result of an already existing faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5), but works in connection with salvation are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. These verses are giving a description of a believer (Christian), not a prerequisite to become saved. My goodness you have all of this backwards!

By faith Abel offered a sacrifice (Heb. 11:4). Abel offered a sacrifice "by" (out of) a faith that "he already had" and confirmed his faith by what he did. Cain demonstrated an evil heart by his evil deeds, while Abel demonstrated a pious heart by his righteous deeds (1 John 3:12); and that Abel offered his sacrifice by faith and Cain did not. Because of Cain's faith, God accounted him as righteous. His faith was evidenced in obedience to God's requirement for sacrifice by which he obtained witness that he was righteous. That sacrifice did not make him righteous, but through it he was shown to be righteous because of his faith (James 2:18). Cain's sacrifice was evidence that his faith was not genuine. Abel's offering proved something about his faith that was not demonstrated by Cain's offering.

The one who practices righteousness does so BECAUSE he is righteous, not to become righteous, just as the one who practices sin does so BECAUSE is of the devil, not to become of the devil. Carefully read 1 John 3:7-10 again.

So you believe it's all about works of righteousness which they have done that is the basis for receiving eternal life and faith didn't matter in the OT? What do we read under the New Covenant in Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17-18; Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5 and 2 Timothy 1:9? The order is repent, believe the gospel, righteous standing with God, followed by working righteousness. [/FONT]

Repent, faith, righteous, fruit - keep statutes, do lawful, right. Does a wicked person keep statutes, do lawful and what is right or a righteous person?

Repentance precedes saving faith in Christ, then this person keeps His commandments and practices righteousness (1 John 2:3; 1 John 3:10). By this we KNOW that we HAVE COME TO KNOW HIM if we keep His commandments, not finally come to know Him from a lost condition after we keep His commandments. Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, so only those who are born of God FIRST then practice righteousness.

Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? “If he trust in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS.” This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. The New Testament states in Romans 10:3-4 - “For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one who BELIEVES.”

As James Fawcett Brown point out - righteous--one apparently such; as in Matthew 9:13, "I came not to call the righteous," that is, those who fancy themselves righteous. First please notice the underlined words "his righteousness" meaning that the "righteous" turns from his righteousness. That is his OWN righteousness.

Nothing about faith then at all? Is this salvation by works? We turn from wickedness when we repent and we believe the gospel and become saved (Acts 20:21; Acts 3:19; 11:17-18; Romans 1:16). Only righteous people because of their faith do what is lawful and right. In Genesis 26:4 - [/FONT]"I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws." Was this the point in which Abraham's faith was accounted for righteousness? NO. Read Genesis 15:5-6 which happened many years before. Genesis 15:5 - Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 And he believed the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

How do wicked people practice righteousness? Wicked people FIRST repent and believe on Him who justifies the ungodly, then their faith is accounted for righteousness. Then practicing righteousness follows. What you are saying is that a wicked person accomplishes works of righteousness in order to save themselves by works and then they shall save their soul alive based on these works of righteousness? (Titus 3:5). What happened to faith?

So a wicked person spends his entire life doing righteousness in order to be saved by works? Where do we read this in the NT? Lost souls do righteousness?

What happened to faith in your works formula plan of salvation? When a person repents and believes the gospel, they become saved. Turning from doing unrighteousness to doing which is lawful/doing righteousness is the fruit of repentance/faith (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20). So according to you, we have not been saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9) but will be saved by works which follow?

DEEDS determine and demonstrate the condition of our heart which determines if we will receive eternal life or not. Notice that ALL who will receive eternal life are described as everyone who does good and ALL who will not receive eternal life are described as everyone who does evil. Luke 6:45 - [/COLOR]A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. Notice the heart condition precedes the results. It's the same with DEEDS as the result of the heart condition.

False. We have been saved through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Then after one is saved/created in Christ Jesus - what follows? - UNTO/FOR good works (Ephesians 2:10). So contrary to scripture, you teach that salvation is "attained" and "maintained" by works. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls (1 Peter 1:9). It's obvious what you are trusting in for salvation - WORKS and not Christ alone. You are in the same boat with Roman Catholics and Mormons. Difference in style, but same in substance - "works based" false gospel.

James says faith alone is dead for it has no works. Works prove the faith.....prove your faith without your works and James proves his faith by his works. Faith therefore must have works to be a living viable faith....cannot have one without the other thereby the bible ties faith to works so closely that faith is a work.

Lev 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood" Remove the blood and kill the life..remove the works kill the faith.

You asked "Is obeying righteousness/the truth/doing good accomplished from a lost condition or a saved condition? Is this produced by a living faith or a dead faith?"

One obeys from a lost condition. One is saved after he obeys, not before.

YOu post "Nobody said that one is saved while they continue to practice sin and not righteousness (1 John 3:10)"

Yes they are for they are trying to find a way to get one saved without doing any obedient works. For if one must do obedient works BEFORE he is saved then they lose their faith only argument.

SInce one is either doing unrighteousness or righteousness (no inbetween) then they are trying to get the one that is doing unrighteousness saved in his unrighteousness then after he is saved he can then do righteousness.


Eze 13:33 "When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it."

If one trust his own righteousness he cannot be saved and that is exactly why Paul said the Jews were lost in Rom 3:10 for they went about to establish their own righteousness. Paul goes on to explain those Jew could be saved if they would submit to GOD's rIghteousness. Big difference between one doing his OWN righteousness and doing GOD'S righteousness.


Eze 18:2127 "But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive."

If he does that which is lawful and right (do GOD'S righteousness/statutes) he shall save his soul. As Paul says the Jews could be saved if they would submit to GOD"S commandments.

There are some here that refuse to understand that there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between one doing his OWN righteousness and doing GOD'S righteousness.


Eze 18:27 "Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive."

You post "How do wicked people practice righteousness? Wicked people FIRST repent and believe on Him who justifies the ungodly, then their faith is accounted for righteousness."

The wicked must first TURN/Repent of their wickedness. But that is not enough for he must then "do that which is lawful and good". As Eze 18:27 says the wicked must turn from his wickedness AND AND AND do that which is lawful and right THEN he shall save his soul alive. Just as Paul has it in Rom 6:16,17 doing righteousness/obey from the heart THEN freed from sin/justified.

Wicked people will never repent of sins and do righteousness unless that first believe.


You asked "So a wicked person spends his entire life doing righteousness in order to be saved by works? Where do we read this in the NT? Lost souls do righteousness?"

A wicked person remains lost as long as he does wickedness. He must first do righteousness before he can be righteous. Peter's hearers in Acts 2 were lost/unrighteous. They heard Peter preach the gospel and believed (faith comes by hearing Rom 10:17) and asked what shall we do. They were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. They were was still lost/unrighteous when they believed. Still lost/unrighteous when they repented. Still lost/unrighteous until after they were baptized.

Eze 18:27 "Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive."

The question I asked is how can a man save his own soul? You did not answer that but just asked me more questions. He saves his own soul by doing GOD's righteousness. As Peter told his listeners to save yourselves by obeying God in repenting and being baptized. Doing nothing/faith only saves no one.

Eph 2:8 "Not of works" refer to works of merit and does not refer to doing God's obedience. Just saw from Ezekiel the wicked must FIRST do what is lawful and right THEN he saves his soul alive. Cannot eve be saved without doing GOD'S righteousness.

 

[notuptome]

in other words you cannot....

Quite the opposite but I'm under no obligation to do so.

The rich man in hell asked to send someone to his brothers that they not end up where he was. He was told they have the word of God from the prophets they must hear from them.

Those who show their works are told by Christ to depart for He does not know them. False religionists abound but genuine Christians do not vaunt themselves.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Let me repeat what the bible order

Faith produce salvation and good work.

Catholic order

Faith and work produce salvation.

It is huge different. it is reversal.

Your order:


a)Faith only>>>>>>>b)then saved>>>>>>c)then do works

Your initial (a)faith only is dead being alone, James 2:17. Your dead (a)faith only cannot bring about (b) or (c). Why? Because it's DEAD and cannot do anything. So your whole order begins and ends and can never move past (a).

 

[SeaBass]

Of the which you still fail to understand as your own works and religion still blind you to the truth while making you two fold the child of hell.....

BELIEVE and thou shalt be SAVED!

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE!

Pay attention to the word FOOLISHNESS as that is what you cannot seem to get over.....you must add your works and water which is a work....while rejecting GALATIANS chapter 1 and 3....

FAITH plus WORKS to gain or keep salvation = HELL

Keep rejection the truth...time is running out...tick tock...tick tock...!

You attacked me but did not address the fact Jesus said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

 

[dcontroversal]

You attacked me but did not address the fact Jesus said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

If the shoe fits......and didn't attack you, but rather stated facts about your heretical stance.....a careful look into what you teach reveals contradiction upon contradiction and abounds with heresy....you will find out one day to late that your faith/works for salvation was a gospel of a different kind which leads to hell.....tragic for sure as you had plenty of opportunity to get right, but refused to acknowledge the truth..........!

The best that you give is scripture out of context and twisted to your own demise....by your theology....women are saved in bearing children....as that is what you do...take a verse and hang it on your works for salvation without any consideration for context and what the words actually mean in context!

 

[SeaBass]

if salvation could be gained through works, than Christ died in vain

Hi,

Gal 2:21"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousnesscome by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

This refers to doing works of the OT law as circumcision and not NT obedience. Some of those in Galatia had quit obeying the NT gospel and returned to the OT law thinking they could be justified by being circumcised. Paul condemned them twice for having quit obeying the gospel truth, Gal 3:1; 5:7.

 

[newbirth]

Quite the opposite but I'm under no obligation to do so.

The rich man in hell asked to send someone to his brothers that they not end up where he was. He was told they have the word of God from the prophets they must hear from them.

Those who show their works are told by Christ to depart for He does not know them. False religionists abound but genuine Christians do not vaunt themselves.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I asked to see your faith ....but if you say you are not obligated to show your faith ...that is fine by me....it's hard to see what is not there....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are spiritual works that must be done.

When you say must, you place people under law and not under grace. For you say their are laws which must be kept, or salvation is not received. Thus it is not of faith, it is in works, and you ability to keep those works. You have to trust self.

The problem with this area is that to many still want to put the written ordinances of the mosaic law that we are not under, and the works that is talked about that by following will not save you. They want to put this with the spiritual works, as would be God's moral values/laws, as the same.

The problem with this is if we place any law (command) whether it be moral (mosaic) or religious (work of righteousness) we are depending on self and our good deeds to save us, when no amunt of good deeds we could ever do will remove one sin, let alone the millions of sins we have committed since birth. Your still placing a person under law (mosaic or not) and not under grace.

Paul says not by works of righteousness (no matter which good deed it may be) we have done, by by his mercy, to say someone MUST do something to receive mercy removes mercy from the equation. It stops being mercy, and starts to be earned, or rewarded

When you see in the bible speaking of the works or laws we are not under, or does not save. It is not speaking of God's moral laws, it is speaking of the written ordinances of the mosaic law.
When Jesus said to depart from Him to those who did works. It was because they did it for themselves. For self gain, appreciation, notice, and self wealth. They did not do it out of love and faith for Him.

Your right, When you are doing it to be saved, your doing it for self. for self gain. When you do anything in order to recieve something, your doing it for self gain.

Walking in love is faith in Him, that produces spiritual works. Doing things for others in need, esteeming others more than self, and obeying the Lord's teachings to repent, be baptized, and confess Him before others not hiding your faith.

Yet when you go to get baptized to recieve salvation, your doing it for self gain. By your own defenition, it must be rejected. Because it is one of the things jesus will say depart for I never knew you.

Easy belivism teaches believe only, or faith only, and that repentance is no longer needed for all was accomplished at the cross.
Problem with this is that Jesus Himself said repent of your sins or perish, and confess Him or He will deny you.

We agree, But again, this is no more dangerous than religion or legalism, placing laws or rules of things you claim MUST be done to be saved.

Modern day baptismal regenerationists are no better then Jews demanding circumcision (which was not even a work of the law. it was before the law, given to Abraham) Paul spoke against this legalism, we must speak against modern day legalism of being washed by water, not the word.

Easy belivism wants to teach believe He existed, died on the cross, and rose on the third day.
That's it, your now saved so go on your way and do what you want and live how you want.
Problem again is that you can not live willfully sinning and still be saved, nor can you return to willful sin and be saved.

Again I agree in part. But legalism states you have reached a point where your not a sinner, They are modern day pharisees, who refuse to see on your best day your not worthy of eternal life. If God showed you your best 24 hours and opened your eyes, you would be devestated, and horrified at the sin you are exposed to.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

faith without works is dead....and we are saved by grace through faith....there is works of the law and works of faith

doing works of the law is works of faith.

You just contradicted yourself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him?
Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

-both had works and offering, what holy day was this to present themselfs ?

lol. do what? this makes no sense.

Abel did what God commanded, The sacrifice represented Christ, an innocent whos blood was shed, and caused remmision of sin.

Cain was a religious zeolot, He gave of his hard works. He killed cain because he was jealose. and angry god rejected his works. Just like the pharisees who killed christ because Christ told them all their religious works were useless,

Just like catholics kill anyone who taught works were not necessary for salvation.

Just like legalists hate and get angry at people who believe the sacrifice of the lamb (think of abel) is the ONLY WAY to remove sin, Human works and human good will be rejected.

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after
the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

-heartfelt offering not by cain

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain,
by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts:
and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Abel did not do any work. the spotless lamb did the work, He died in abel's place.

 

[SeaBass]

Labor in the flesh will never produce meat that endure unto everlasting life. Jesus speaks of Spiritual truth and you see only the carnal.

You are right that Jesus settled the issue. Ye must be born again by the power of the Holy Spirit through the word of God and by the determinate will of God. Nothing of yourself but wholly by grace through faith due to the mercy of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jesus said to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life. This work requires obedience in believing repenting confessing and being baptized, Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33; Mk 16;16.

Work is ergazomai, something one does, an action.

It appears you are trying to turn WORK into NO WORK

 

[newbirth]

doing works of the law is works of faith.

You just contradicted yourself.

Did I ...really?....are you the one who called Abraham a liar...??
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

1 Thessalonians 1:3

Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

 

[SeaBass]

You underscore the error. God does not give a gift with strings on it. God gives freely of the water of eternal life. It is quite capricious to think that one can earn or deserve a free gift.

By Gods grace I am what I never could be.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

God most certainly did offer the gift of salvation with "strings" attached those stings being belief, repentance confession and baptism for remission of sins. These are the works Jesus said one must do to gain everlasting life that He gives.

IF no "strings' are attached then you are arguing the unbeliever will be saved
IF no "strings' are attached then you are arguing the impenitent will be saved
IF no "strings' are attached then you are arguing the denier of Christ will be saved
IF no "strings' are attached then you are arguing the one lost in his unforgiven sins will be saved.

 

[SeaBass]

If the shoe fits......and didn't attack you, but rather stated facts about your heretical stance.....a careful look into what you teach reveals contradiction upon contradiction and abounds with heresy....you will find out one day to late that your faith/works for salvation was a gospel of a different kind which leads to hell.....tragic for sure as you had plenty of opportunity to get right, but refused to acknowledge the truth..........!

The best that you give is scripture out of context and twisted to your own demise....by your theology....women are saved in bearing children....as that is what you do...take a verse and hang it on your works for salvation without any consideration for context and what the words actually mean in context!

....still did not address the fact Jesus said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

No work = no everlasting life. Jesus settled it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did I ...really?....are you the one who called Abraham a liar...??
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

1 Thessalonians 1:3

Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

if we do works of the law to get saved, we work.

if we do them in faith out of love, they are righteous works.

again, you contradict yourself.

works of the law done NOT TO BE SAVED are works of faith.