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E
Hizikya, Your incessant use of word translations really aren't needed but if you insist...
νόμος, ου, ὁ. with a basic meaning law, i. e. what is assigned or proper; (1) generally, any law in the judicial sphere (RO 7. 1); (2) as rule governing one 's conduct principle, law (RO 7. 23); (3) more specifically in the NT of the Mosaic system of legislation as revealing the divine will (the Torah) law (of Moses) (LU 2. 22); in an expanded sense, Jewish religious laws developed from the Mosaic law (Jewish) law (JN 18. 31; AC 23. 29); (4) as the collection of writings considered sacred by the Jews; (a) in a narrower sense, the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible, as comprising the law (MT 12. 5; GA 3. 10 b); (b) in a wider sense, the Old Testament Scriptures as a whole (MT 5. 18; RO 3. 19); (5) figuratively, as the Christian gospel, the new covenant, as furnishing a new principle to govern spiritual life law (RO 8. 2 a; HE 10. 16)
33. 333 νόμος (1) ου m τος n
includes:δόγμα [a]) a formalized rule (or set of rules) prescribing what people must do- law, ordinance, rule. νόμος [a]:ὅς οὐ κατὰ νόμον ἐντολῆς σαρκίνης γέγονεν he was not made (a priest) by the law of human decree HEB. 7:16. δόγμα [a]:παρεδίδοσαν αὐτοῖς φυλάσσειν τὰ δόγματα they delivered to them the rules which they were to obey ACT. 16:4.
The difference between a law and a command is that a law is enforced by sanctions from a society, while a command carries only the sanctions of the individual who commands. When, however, the people of Israel accepted the commands of God as the rules which they would follow and enforce, these became their laws.
The occurrence of νόμος two times in ROM. 8:2 poses certain problems of both translation and interpretation:ὁ γὰρ νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἠλευθέρωσέν σε ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου τῆς ἁμαρτίας καὶ τοῦ θανάτου for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus freed you from the law which leads to sin and death. In the second occurrence of νόμος, the meaning is clearly the rules and regulations of the OT law, but in the case of the first occurrence of νόμος, there is no such formulation of decrees. The reference in this instance must therefore be to certain basic principles. If, however, one understands νόμος in the sense of a type of abstract governing power, it is possible that the reference in the phrase νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς is to this governing power of the Spirit of life which frees one from the law which stipulates sin and death.
33. 333 νόμος (1) ου m τος nincludes:δόγμα [a]) a formalized rule (or set of rules) prescribing what people must do- law, ordinance, rule. νόμος [a]:ὅς οὐ κατὰ νόμον ἐντολῆς σαρκίνης γέγονεν he was not made (a priest) by the law of human decree HEB. 7:16. δόγμα [a]:παρεδίδοσαν αὐτοῖς φυλάσσειν τὰ δόγματα they delivered to them the rules which they were to obey ACT. 16:4.
The difference between a law and a command is that a law is enforced by sanctions from a society, while a command carries only the sanctions of the individual who commands. When, however, the people of Israel accepted the commands of God as the rules which they would follow and enforce, these became their laws.
The occurrence of νόμος two times in ROM. 8:2 poses certain problems of both translation and interpretation:ὁ γὰρ νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἠλευθέρωσέν σε ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου τῆς ἁμαρτίας καὶ τοῦ θανάτου for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus freed you from the law which leads to sin and death. In the second occurrence of νόμος, the meaning is clearly the rules and regulations of the OT law, but in the case of the first occurrence of νόμος, there is no such formulation of decrees. The reference in this instance must therefore be to certain basic principles. If, however, one understands νόμος in the sense of a type of abstract governing power, it is possible that the reference in the phrase νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς is to this governing power of the Spirit of life which frees one from the law which stipulates sin and death.
[3795] νόμος nomos 194x a law, Rom. 4:15; 1 Tim. 1:9; the Mosaic law, Mt. 5:17, et al. freq.; the Old Testament Scripture, Jn. 10:34; a legal tie, Rom. 7:2, 3; a law, a rule, standard, Rom. 3:27; a rule of life and conduct, Gal. 6:2, Jas. 1:25 [3551] See law.
νόμος, ου, ὁ. with a basic meaning law, i. e. what is assigned or proper; (1) generally, any law in the judicial sphere (RO 7. 1); (2) as rule governing one 's conduct principle, law (RO 7. 23); (3) more specifically in the NT of the Mosaic system of legislation as revealing the divine will (the Torah) law (of Moses) (LU 2. 22); in an expanded sense, Jewish religious laws developed from the Mosaic law (Jewish) law (JN 18. 31; AC 23. 29); (4) as the collection of writings considered sacred by the Jews; (a) in a narrower sense, the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible, as comprising the law (MT 12. 5; GA 3. 10 b); (b) in a wider sense, the Old Testament Scriptures as a whole (MT 5. 18; RO 3. 19); (5) figuratively, as the Christian gospel, the new covenant, as furnishing a new principle to govern spiritual life law (RO 8. 2 a; HE 10. 16)
33. 333 νόμος (1) ου m τος n
includes:δόγμα [a]) a formalized rule (or set of rules) prescribing what people must do- law, ordinance, rule. νόμος [a]:ὅς οὐ κατὰ νόμον ἐντολῆς σαρκίνης γέγονεν he was not made (a priest) by the law of human decree HEB. 7:16. δόγμα [a]:παρεδίδοσαν αὐτοῖς φυλάσσειν τὰ δόγματα they delivered to them the rules which they were to obey ACT. 16:4.The difference between a law and a command is that a law is enforced by sanctions from a society, while a command carries only the sanctions of the individual who commands. When, however, the people of Israel accepted the commands of God as the rules which they would follow and enforce, these became their laws.
The occurrence of νόμος two times in ROM. 8:2 poses certain problems of both translation and interpretation:ὁ γὰρ νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἠλευθέρωσέν σε ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου τῆς ἁμαρτίας καὶ τοῦ θανάτου for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus freed you from the law which leads to sin and death. In the second occurrence of νόμος, the meaning is clearly the rules and regulations of the OT law, but in the case of the first occurrence of νόμος, there is no such formulation of decrees. The reference in this instance must therefore be to certain basic principles. If, however, one understands νόμος in the sense of a type of abstract governing power, it is possible that the reference in the phrase νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς is to this governing power of the Spirit of life which frees one from the law which stipulates sin and death.
33. 333 νόμος (1) ου m τος n
includes:δόγμα [a]) a formalized rule (or set of rules) prescribing what people must do- law, ordinance, rule. νόμος [a]:ὅς οὐ κατὰ νόμον ἐντολῆς σαρκίνης γέγονεν he was not made (a priest) by the law of human decree HEB. 7:16. δόγμα [a]:παρεδίδοσαν αὐτοῖς φυλάσσειν τὰ δόγματα they delivered to them the rules which they were to obey ACT. 16:4.The difference between a law and a command is that a law is enforced by sanctions from a society, while a command carries only the sanctions of the individual who commands. When, however, the people of Israel accepted the commands of God as the rules which they would follow and enforce, these became their laws.
The occurrence of νόμος two times in ROM. 8:2 poses certain problems of both translation and interpretation:ὁ γὰρ νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἠλευθέρωσέν σε ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου τῆς ἁμαρτίας καὶ τοῦ θανάτου for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus freed you from the law which leads to sin and death. In the second occurrence of νόμος, the meaning is clearly the rules and regulations of the OT law, but in the case of the first occurrence of νόμος, there is no such formulation of decrees. The reference in this instance must therefore be to certain basic principles. If, however, one understands νόμος in the sense of a type of abstract governing power, it is possible that the reference in the phrase νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς is to this governing power of the Spirit of life which frees one from the law which stipulates sin and death.
[3795] νόμος nomos 194x a law, Rom. 4:15; 1 Tim. 1:9; the Mosaic law, Mt. 5:17, et al. freq.; the Old Testament Scripture, Jn. 10:34; a legal tie, Rom. 7:2, 3; a law, a rule, standard, Rom. 3:27; a rule of life and conduct, Gal. 6:2, Jas. 1:25 [3551] See law.
Actually to the hebrews in biblical times, the law was the term used for the first 5 books of the bible and everything included in then.
Read Galatians. Christians were being deceived by a Jewish sect so as to be circumcised so as to be saved (Which is going back to the Law of Moses). Paul's whole point was that if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace. In other words, how are you saved at this very second right now? What would you say to Jesus if He asked you "Why should I allow you into my Kingdom?"
Is salvation = Jesus + what you do?
Or is salvation = Jesus alone? - Which naturally brings forth fruit because He (Who is the source of salvation) abides within you (1 John 5:12).
See, salvation is a person named Jesus Christ and salvation is not a "To Do List."
We are saved RIGHT here and RIGHT now by God's grace (When we repent or confess of our sins to Jesus) and we are not saved by works lest any man should boast.
Is salvation = Jesus + what you do?
Or is salvation = Jesus alone? - Which naturally brings forth fruit because He (Who is the source of salvation) abides within you (1 John 5:12).
See, salvation is a person named Jesus Christ and salvation is not a "To Do List."
We are saved RIGHT here and RIGHT now by God's grace (When we repent or confess of our sins to Jesus) and we are not saved by works lest any man should boast.
To those who answered yes to the first question, you'll probably find sweet fellowship here...
http://christianchat.com/group.php?groupid=478
http://christianchat.com/group.php?groupid=478
J
For anybody who tires of cult foolishness, I have a suggestion, would like to know something. Take these Hebrew roots, pretend Messianic Jews, who are really whackjob gentiles, who try to twist Christianity into a false, legalistic pretzel. What I'd like to see them first post is a denominational charter. There really should be multiple churches, in major and other cities, of their denomination, if it's not some corrupt cult invention, peddling a corrupt and false gospel. Nothing but a cult has just been invented. So, I'd like to see their denomination credentials and charter of their faith. Myself, I'm non-denominational, but fully stand with the standard Baptist charter, with a bunch of churches in my city, if somebody wants to know where Bible believers stand. So, just who are you? I really don't have much inclination to discuss theological issues with somebody I don't even have any idea who they are and what they represent, have no interest in enduring endless blather, lies and bickering, wasting time to try and find out what these apostates really believe. You who are ashamed of revealing your cult, that's end of discussion, really, in itself.
There's one thing I know from God in my heart, and this is that any sin breaks the Second Commandment and causes His wrath and jealousy, because something else has been put before Him and we have not been found the faithful wife to the Ishi (Husband). Who has the ears to hear... let them hear. Or we can keep fooling ourselves that a man can manage to keep the commandments perfectly to God's standards... I'm done here.
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
A Tree Recognized by its Fruit
…35"The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36"But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37"For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
A Tree Recognized by its Fruit
…35"The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36"But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37"For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
I agree with what you said with exception to the bold. I'm going to make a general post which isn't directed at you exclusively.
Someone else has probably already addressed what I'm about to say, but...if we agree we are no longer alone or powerless (exclusively because of the Holy Spirit of Christ in us), that it's indeed He who does the work of obedience in us, then how or why is it still true that perfection is unattainable? I can't honestly follow the reasoning...maybe someone from the other side of the argument can explain it.
This is the reasoning I follow:
Christ is Creator of all...
Master of reality...
With all authority in heaven and earth...
He was Placed inside Adam's flesh...
He was tempted constantly by that flesh, and yet was perfectly sinless; perfectly resisted its temptation.
.......and now - through the grace/power of God - he's inside *this* flesh (points to you, me & the members here)
...same flesh from Adam...
...same Christ from the beginning...
...same Creator of all...
...same Master of reality...
...same authority in heaven and earth...
...same temptations from this flesh...
...same strength to resist sin...
...same strength to achieve perfection...
......and yet somehow he can't do it again in *this* flesh?? Which is *still* supposed to be his body (i.e. "Body of Christ")?? I honestly don't understand. Can someone explain to me the difference between the Christ walking in Adam's flesh 2000 years ago and the Christ walking in this flesh now? What's the difference between then and now? Or please explain to me where my reasoning breaks down.
Somehow *this* flesh is greater than he who is now inside it??
Somehow we are still slaves to this flesh and its temptations, even though we're supposed to be dead to sin??
Somehow we are still alone & powerless whenever we try to obey God's law out of love for him, love that only Christ's Spirit can give us??
This is what doesn't make sense to me...honesty. I can't follow the reasoning. I don't understand how perfection is not possible if the mystery of God has been fulfilled. The mystery hidden from man for ages is "Christ *IN* you" which is our only hope for the glory we are meant to achieve...the only hope. If it's not possible to achieve perfect obedience to God's law exclusively with/because/on account of Christ inside of us...then what hope is there? It's the whole point he's there in the first place isn't it; to "move us" to obey (check my signature), otherwise what's the point of him even being inside of us? The fruit of faith in Christ is an obedient person; i.e. one who perfectly follows God's commandments, the process of which is Ezekiel 36:27 - his Spirit moving us to (ourselves) follow those laws, like his Son did: *wanting* to and knowing how.
I don't understand...
It's why the only reasonable conclusion I can come up with for someone who continues believes that - even with Christ inside them - they're still alone and still unable to perfectly obey God's law if they try to, is either Christ isn't inside of them yet urging/empowering them to do it; meaning they have not really given over their lives and died on the cross so that Christ lives in them instead...or...they don't really understand the gospel of Christ and the gospel of the Kingdom.
Nothing is instantaneous and only children think in absolutes (all or nothing terms), but we are adults. We know everything takes time. There's a process; a journey; a walk to *eventually* achieve it...and that process is to move from "sinner/doomed" to "righteous/perfect". Nothing's instantaneous. But to say perfection is not achievable robs us of the only hope that scripture says is ours "in Christ".
Where does my reasoning break down?
Someone else has probably already addressed what I'm about to say, but...if we agree we are no longer alone or powerless (exclusively because of the Holy Spirit of Christ in us), that it's indeed He who does the work of obedience in us, then how or why is it still true that perfection is unattainable? I can't honestly follow the reasoning...maybe someone from the other side of the argument can explain it.
This is the reasoning I follow:
Christ is Creator of all...
Master of reality...
With all authority in heaven and earth...
He was Placed inside Adam's flesh...
He was tempted constantly by that flesh, and yet was perfectly sinless; perfectly resisted its temptation.
.......and now - through the grace/power of God - he's inside *this* flesh (points to you, me & the members here)
...same flesh from Adam...
...same Christ from the beginning...
...same Creator of all...
...same Master of reality...
...same authority in heaven and earth...
...same temptations from this flesh...
...same strength to resist sin...
...same strength to achieve perfection...
......and yet somehow he can't do it again in *this* flesh?? Which is *still* supposed to be his body (i.e. "Body of Christ")?? I honestly don't understand. Can someone explain to me the difference between the Christ walking in Adam's flesh 2000 years ago and the Christ walking in this flesh now? What's the difference between then and now? Or please explain to me where my reasoning breaks down.
Somehow *this* flesh is greater than he who is now inside it??
Somehow we are still slaves to this flesh and its temptations, even though we're supposed to be dead to sin??
Somehow we are still alone & powerless whenever we try to obey God's law out of love for him, love that only Christ's Spirit can give us??
This is what doesn't make sense to me...honesty. I can't follow the reasoning. I don't understand how perfection is not possible if the mystery of God has been fulfilled. The mystery hidden from man for ages is "Christ *IN* you" which is our only hope for the glory we are meant to achieve...the only hope
. If it's not possible to achieve perfect obedience to God's law exclusively with/because/on account of Christ inside of us...then what hope is there? It's the whole point he's there in the first place isn't it; to "move us" to obey (check my signature), otherwise what's the point of him even being inside of us? The fruit of faith in Christ is an obedient person; i.e. one who perfectly follows God's commandments, the process of which is Ezekiel 36:27 - his Spirit moving us to (ourselves) follow those laws, like his Son did: *wanting* to and knowing how.I don't understand...
It's why the only reasonable conclusion I can come up with for someone who continues believes that - even with Christ inside them - they're still alone and still unable to perfectly obey God's law if they try to, is either Christ isn't inside of them yet urging/empowering them to do it; meaning they have not really given over their lives and died on the cross so that Christ lives in them instead...or...they don't really understand the gospel of Christ and the gospel of the Kingdom.
Nothing is instantaneous and only children think in absolutes (all or nothing terms), but we are adults. We know everything takes time. There's a process; a journey; a walk to *eventually* achieve it...and that process is to move from "sinner/doomed" to "righteous/perfect". Nothing's instantaneous. But to say perfection is not achievable robs us of the only hope that scripture says is ours "in Christ".
Where does my reasoning break down?
E
yep. and people who claim to be so good, and puff themselves up and say they do not break Gos commands, will give an account as to why he did not see his sin, and do nothingn but puff himself up.
Considering you highlighted the part of the flesh in every unbeliever, It is obvious you think a person who is enemy of God can do good. which means you do not understand Gods law.
I can just pray one day you see, as I did.
Yes they were fakes, every legalist I have ever met is a fake. Puffing himself up to how Good he is, yet when it comes to winning people to Christ, Serving others, and being a light in the world. You do not see it, why? they are too busy worrying about self (which is a sin in itself) to be troubled with serving the lost, and weaker brothers and sisters who need help.
If you wish to be that way, thats fine, it is your life.
as for me and my house, we will serve the lord, and others, and do whatever we can to forget about self.
Considering you highlighted the part of the flesh in every unbeliever, It is obvious you think a person who is enemy of God can do good. which means you do not understand Gods law.
I can just pray one day you see, as I did.
Yes they were fakes, every legalist I have ever met is a fake. Puffing himself up to how Good he is, yet when it comes to winning people to Christ, Serving others, and being a light in the world. You do not see it, why? they are too busy worrying about self (which is a sin in itself) to be troubled with serving the lost, and weaker brothers and sisters who need help.
If you wish to be that way, thats fine, it is your life.
as for me and my house, we will serve the lord, and others, and do whatever we can to forget about self.
Galatians 5:13
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Why?...... Because the saints (those anointed with the Holy Spirit) keep the commandments of God (written on their heart) and the faith of Jesus (we have the Holy Spirit). The aforementioned verse Rev 14:12 quoted by you does not conflict except in your mind.
The fruits of the Spirit make sure we do not violate it. We are free indeed!
Let God be the judge of His servant and not man.
Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Galatians 5:22
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
The fruits of the Spirit make sure that we honor all of the law.
Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Romans 14:3
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Every 7th day from even to even this "Hebrew" is called into that wonderful Sabbath rest and I thank God our Father through Jesus Christ for bringing me into it. Not by man's traditions but by God who started the tradition to begin with and called me into rest through the Holy Spirit. This my dad's could not do because of unbelief. God is merciful to the children of His people!
Hebrews 4:4
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
The Hebrew laws were mentioned at the council of Jerusalem (Acts15) and the Sabbath was not commanded to be kept by Gentiles. They were to abstain from food offered to idols,blood,things that were strangled, and fornication but no mention of Sabbath keeping. The Sabbath remains in effect for some of us Hebrews as a privilege and to any others who might be called into that rest by God through the Holy Spirit. But, we who have received the free gift of the Holy Spirit, Gentile or Jew, are free in Christ and not under the law due to the fruits of the Spirit that He has grown in us that keep us from violating the Sabbath law. He governs us to do what He will have us do through the Spirit, and it is He who keeps us from sin and justifies us.
Acts 15:28
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
About the first day of the week, I personally judge no man in his worship or walk with Christ.
Is Sunday the first day of the week the Sabbath? No, never was and never will be, but it is the day of the blessed resurrection of Jesus Christ and should be kept in remembrance. Btw, this came long before the establishment of the RCC and their statement about Sunday being their mark of authority over Christianity and calling it the day of rest. I can say the breath in my lungs comes from me inhaling air but God obviously put the breath in me and air to breathe to begin with. What came first the chick or the egg? Do I think that every Christian who rests on Sunday is bound for hell and has the mark of the beast? Absolutely not and neither should you.
We are free in Christ!
Let God be the judge!
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Why?...... Because the saints (those anointed with the Holy Spirit) keep the commandments of God (written on their heart) and the faith of Jesus (we have the Holy Spirit). The aforementioned verse Rev 14:12 quoted by you does not conflict except in your mind.
The fruits of the Spirit make sure we do not violate it. We are free indeed!
Let God be the judge of His servant and not man.
Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Galatians 5:22
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
The fruits of the Spirit make sure that we honor all of the law.
Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Romans 14:3
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Every 7th day from even to even this "Hebrew" is called into that wonderful Sabbath rest and I thank God our Father through Jesus Christ for bringing me into it. Not by man's traditions but by God who started the tradition to begin with and called me into rest through the Holy Spirit. This my dad's could not do because of unbelief. God is merciful to the children of His people!
Hebrews 4:4
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
The Hebrew laws were mentioned at the council of Jerusalem (Acts15) and the Sabbath was not commanded to be kept by Gentiles. They were to abstain from food offered to idols,blood,things that were strangled, and fornication but no mention of Sabbath keeping. The Sabbath remains in effect for some of us Hebrews as a privilege and to any others who might be called into that rest by God through the Holy Spirit. But, we who have received the free gift of the Holy Spirit, Gentile or Jew, are free in Christ and not under the law due to the fruits of the Spirit that He has grown in us that keep us from violating the Sabbath law. He governs us to do what He will have us do through the Spirit, and it is He who keeps us from sin and justifies us.
Acts 15:28
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
About the first day of the week, I personally judge no man in his worship or walk with Christ.
Is Sunday the first day of the week the Sabbath? No, never was and never will be, but it is the day of the blessed resurrection of Jesus Christ and should be kept in remembrance. Btw, this came long before the establishment of the RCC and their statement about Sunday being their mark of authority over Christianity and calling it the day of rest. I can say the breath in my lungs comes from me inhaling air but God obviously put the breath in me and air to breathe to begin with. What came first the chick or the egg? Do I think that every Christian who rests on Sunday is bound for hell and has the mark of the beast? Absolutely not and neither should you.
We are free in Christ!
Let God be the judge!
As for the Sabbath..
Hebrews 4:3 is the passage used to argue that we who believe in Christ enter into our Sabbath/Rest, saying there's no need to actually follow God's commandment concerning Sabbath remembrance. I agree with the first part that we do enter our Sabbath in belief in Christ but that doesn't mean we don't need to follow God's Sabbath commandment. So I think it's important to show what belief really means using this same chapter of Hebrews.
Hebrews 4:1-2 [brackets mine]
At the very beginning of Hebrews 4, the writer tells us in no uncertain terms that one falls short of Christ's Rest/Sabbath if they don't share the faith of those who *obey*. Faith is shown by obedience. Like James said, faith without action does not exist. This is the crux of the matter; one can't say they have faith but do not obey God.
Hebrews 4:3-5
Those who believe enter that rest...but again, it must be the same faith as those who obey.
Hebrews 4:6-8
This section says one doesn't enter into Christ's "Rest" if they are disobedient after hearing the good news. Both Christ and John proclaimed the good news: "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near!" Repent means turning away from our sins and obeying God. And to obey God is to follow his Commandments, including remembering the Sabbath day.
A person is said to have harden their heart when they do not listen and do what God commands. THEREFORE...
Hebrews 4:9-11
Effort. There is work to do to enter into God's Rest...and that work is to be obedient. If one is not obedient they will perish.
Hebrews 4:12-13
Confirmed all throughout scripture is the fact that we will be judged on our "works". The work of God is to believe in Christ...and to do that we must be obedient to him (Heb 4:1-2)...and he said to follow the commandments. THEREFORE...
Hebrews 4:14-16 [brackets mine]
Q: Help us do what exactly?
A: Be obedient to God = sin no more.
...This is the entire theme of this chapter. We must have the faith of those who obey.
So one can not say they obey the Sabbath commandment automatically simply because they believe in Christ...because belief in Christ must be shown through obedience to God (like in remembering to keep the Sabbath day holy). Once we've shown that; once we've obeyed, THEN we enter into God's "rest".
Hebrews 4:3 is the passage used to argue that we who believe in Christ enter into our Sabbath/Rest, saying there's no need to actually follow God's commandment concerning Sabbath remembrance. I agree with the first part that we do enter our Sabbath in belief in Christ but that doesn't mean we don't need to follow God's Sabbath commandment. So I think it's important to show what belief really means using this same chapter of Hebrews.
Hebrews 4:1-2 [brackets mine]
Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it [i.e. Christ's Rest/Sabbath].
2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they [i.e. the fallen] heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.
2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they [i.e. the fallen] heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.
At the very beginning of Hebrews 4, the writer tells us in no uncertain terms that one falls short of Christ's Rest/Sabbath if they don't share the faith of those who *obey*. Faith is shown by obedience. Like James said, faith without action does not exist. This is the crux of the matter; one can't say they have faith but do not obey God.
Hebrews 4:3-5
3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world.
4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”
5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world.
4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.”
5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
Those who believe enter that rest...but again, it must be the same faith as those who obey.
Hebrews 4:6-8
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.
This section says one doesn't enter into Christ's "Rest" if they are disobedient after hearing the good news. Both Christ and John proclaimed the good news: "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near!" Repent means turning away from our sins and obeying God. And to obey God is to follow his Commandments, including remembering the Sabbath day.
A person is said to have harden their heart when they do not listen and do what God commands. THEREFORE...
Hebrews 4:9-11
9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.
11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
Effort. There is work to do to enter into God's Rest...and that work is to be obedient. If one is not obedient they will perish.
Hebrews 4:12-13
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Confirmed all throughout scripture is the fact that we will be judged on our "works". The work of God is to believe in Christ...and to do that we must be obedient to him (Heb 4:1-2)...and he said to follow the commandments. THEREFORE...
Hebrews 4:14-16 [brackets mine]
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess [i.e. by obeying, in context].
15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.
16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy [i.e. for sins we do commit] and find grace to help us in our time of need.
15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.
16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy [i.e. for sins we do commit] and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Q: Help us do what exactly?
A: Be obedient to God = sin no more.
...This is the entire theme of this chapter. We must have the faith of those who obey.
So one can not say they obey the Sabbath commandment automatically simply because they believe in Christ...because belief in Christ must be shown through obedience to God (like in remembering to keep the Sabbath day holy). Once we've shown that; once we've obeyed, THEN we enter into God's "rest".
Why did Jesus say this, why would He say if you love me you would keep my commandments ? As I said if we go against them, and back slide, we aren't done for necessarily, but if we are truly sorry in repentance, we would turn away from sin, we can't keep living of the world, go to church, and say I'm sorry Jesus, then go right back to doing what we were sorry for, then we're not really sorry. we can't say we are powerless over sin, because I know for fact we're not. I'm tempted and I refuse, nothing or no one can make me do something I don't want to do. People I've known for years have tried to make me fall back, I won't ... and the power I have to do such is all through Christ Jesus.
I will also say again, when I was filled with the Holy Spirit at 17, and came back in contact with the world. I was not strong, and I failed the test, I was in a D.O.C prison within six months on my first adult charges.. I will say when we fall back and turn away, back to a sinful nature... It only gets worse, it gets worse before it will get any better, if we die before it gets better, and not saved and forgiven, it's our own fault.. If we keep faith that he still loves us, no matter how far we fall, yes, but we should turn from our wicked ways, I could be a very powerful man " in the world ", once with Jesus I realize I don't want this ungodly power, I don't want the world, if you've seen what I've seen and been through what I've been through, one could understand better.. This is why I'm able to reject the world and sin so strongly, because I've made my choice on what master I want to serve, and it's Christ, all the glory is His, He who strengthens me... It's how I'm able to tell you, we are capable to overcome and not powerless to the world and sin. I apologize if I offend any of you, but I stand on truth of God, and His words alone.
I said I can't keep the whole 602 laws, like 3x now, your just not listening. I said I haven't broke the principles " the commandments " I'm not perfect as God would want me to be, but I don't brake the commandments.
And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tablets of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them. 13 And Moses rose up, and his minister Joshua: and Moses went up into the mount of God.
And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tablets of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them. 13 And Moses rose up, and his minister Joshua: and Moses went up into the mount of God.
I agree with what you said with exception to the bold. I'm going to make a general post which isn't directed at you exclusively.
Someone else has probably already addressed what I'm about to say, but...if we agree we are no longer alone or powerless (exclusively because of the Holy Spirit of Christ in us), that it's indeed He who does the work of obedience in us, then how or why is it still true that perfection is unattainable? I can't honestly follow the reasoning...maybe someone from the other side of the argument can explain it.
This is the reasoning I follow:
Christ is Creator of all...
Master of reality...
With all authority in heaven and earth...
He was Placed inside Adam's flesh...
He was tempted constantly by that flesh, and yet was perfectly sinless; perfectly resisted its temptation.
.......and now - through the grace/power of God - he's inside *this* flesh (points to you, me & the members here)
...same flesh from Adam...
...same Christ from the beginning...
...same Creator of all...
...same Master of reality...
...same authority in heaven and earth...
...same temptations from this flesh...
...same strength to resist sin...
...same strength to achieve perfection...
......and yet somehow he can't do it again in *this* flesh?? Which is *still* supposed to be his body (i.e. "Body of Christ")?? I honestly don't understand. Can someone explain to me the difference between the Christ walking in Adam's flesh 2000 years ago and the Christ walking in this flesh now? What's the difference between then and now? Or please explain to me where my reasoning breaks down.
Somehow *this* flesh is greater than he who is now inside it??
Somehow we are still slaves to this flesh and its temptations, even though we're supposed to be dead to sin??
Somehow we are still alone & powerless whenever we try to obey God's law out of love for him, love that only Christ's Spirit can give us??
This is what doesn't make sense to me...honesty. I can't follow the reasoning. I don't understand how perfection is not possible if the mystery of God has been fulfilled. The mystery hidden from man for ages is "Christ *IN* you" which is our only hope for the glory we are meant to achieve...the only hope. If it's not possible to achieve perfect obedience to God's law exclusively with/because/on account of Christ inside of us...then what hope is there? It's the whole point he's there in the first place isn't it; to "move us" to obey (check my signature), otherwise what's the point of him even being inside of us? The fruit of faith in Christ is an obedient person; i.e. one who perfectly follows God's commandments, the process of which is Ezekiel 36:27 - his Spirit moving us to (ourselves) follow those laws, like his Son did: *wanting* to and knowing how.
I don't understand...
It's why the only reasonable conclusion I can come up with for someone who continues believes that - even with Christ inside them - they're still alone and still unable to perfectly obey God's law if they try to, is either Christ isn't inside of them yet urging/empowering them to do it; meaning they have not really given over their lives and died on the cross so that Christ lives in them instead...or...they don't really understand the gospel of Christ and the gospel of the Kingdom.
Nothing is instantaneous and only children think in absolutes (all or nothing terms), but we are adults. We know everything takes time. There's a process; a journey; a walk to *eventually* achieve it...and that process is to move from "sinner/doomed" to "righteous/perfect". Nothing's instantaneous. But to say perfection is not achievable robs us of the only hope that scripture says is ours "in Christ".
Where does my reasoning break down?
Someone else has probably already addressed what I'm about to say, but...if we agree we are no longer alone or powerless (exclusively because of the Holy Spirit of Christ in us), that it's indeed He who does the work of obedience in us, then how or why is it still true that perfection is unattainable? I can't honestly follow the reasoning...maybe someone from the other side of the argument can explain it.
This is the reasoning I follow:
Christ is Creator of all...
Master of reality...
With all authority in heaven and earth...
He was Placed inside Adam's flesh...
He was tempted constantly by that flesh, and yet was perfectly sinless; perfectly resisted its temptation.
.......and now - through the grace/power of God - he's inside *this* flesh (points to you, me & the members here)
...same flesh from Adam...
...same Christ from the beginning...
...same Creator of all...
...same Master of reality...
...same authority in heaven and earth...
...same temptations from this flesh...
...same strength to resist sin...
...same strength to achieve perfection...
......and yet somehow he can't do it again in *this* flesh?? Which is *still* supposed to be his body (i.e. "Body of Christ")?? I honestly don't understand. Can someone explain to me the difference between the Christ walking in Adam's flesh 2000 years ago and the Christ walking in this flesh now? What's the difference between then and now? Or please explain to me where my reasoning breaks down.
Somehow *this* flesh is greater than he who is now inside it??
Somehow we are still slaves to this flesh and its temptations, even though we're supposed to be dead to sin??
Somehow we are still alone & powerless whenever we try to obey God's law out of love for him, love that only Christ's Spirit can give us??
This is what doesn't make sense to me...honesty. I can't follow the reasoning. I don't understand how perfection is not possible if the mystery of God has been fulfilled. The mystery hidden from man for ages is "Christ *IN* you" which is our only hope for the glory we are meant to achieve...the only hope
. If it's not possible to achieve perfect obedience to God's law exclusively with/because/on account of Christ inside of us...then what hope is there? It's the whole point he's there in the first place isn't it; to "move us" to obey (check my signature), otherwise what's the point of him even being inside of us? The fruit of faith in Christ is an obedient person; i.e. one who perfectly follows God's commandments, the process of which is Ezekiel 36:27 - his Spirit moving us to (ourselves) follow those laws, like his Son did: *wanting* to and knowing how.I don't understand...
It's why the only reasonable conclusion I can come up with for someone who continues believes that - even with Christ inside them - they're still alone and still unable to perfectly obey God's law if they try to, is either Christ isn't inside of them yet urging/empowering them to do it; meaning they have not really given over their lives and died on the cross so that Christ lives in them instead...or...they don't really understand the gospel of Christ and the gospel of the Kingdom.
Nothing is instantaneous and only children think in absolutes (all or nothing terms), but we are adults. We know everything takes time. There's a process; a journey; a walk to *eventually* achieve it...and that process is to move from "sinner/doomed" to "righteous/perfect". Nothing's instantaneous. But to say perfection is not achievable robs us of the only hope that scripture says is ours "in Christ".
Where does my reasoning break down?
Christ did not have a sinful nature as we still do
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Also we are a work in progress, not to be completed until we see Him...
Philippians 3:12-13
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
If Paul hadn't reached perfection here, and ya ain't gonna see it from this here character
