-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
sooo...i went to sit with my husband, who asked what's new?
and we looked at this together.
he reminded me our pastor says we either see God's Word through eyes of fear,
or eyes of faith.
i want to thank you for completing the thought in Romans.
i guess i don't see the last part as any sort of threat (not that you do!),
but rather as a reality we walk in...part of Christ's gift of Righteousness.
more and more we deny the flesh and walk according to His Spirit in us.
thank you, too, for such a lovely discussion.
i'm reminded of this...
Col 3:15
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.
♥
and we looked at this together.
he reminded me our pastor says we either see God's Word through eyes of fear,
or eyes of faith.
i want to thank you for completing the thought in Romans.
i guess i don't see the last part as any sort of threat (not that you do!),
but rather as a reality we walk in...part of Christ's gift of Righteousness.
more and more we deny the flesh and walk according to His Spirit in us.
thank you, too, for such a lovely discussion.
i'm reminded of this...
Col 3:15
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.
♥
In my life personally I was a heathen for years after I went into a church and said a repeat after me prayer. It was not until years later when I spent a few years studying for myself, my views and actions changed. Im not perfect, but now I feel terrible when I do something I know is wrong, to a degree I can not explain here. This is how I know the Messiah has had effect on me, so when I read Romans 7 and 8 its very powerful (as it is for all I imagine)
I used to "hate' things that were right, but when I got to know Yahweh I began to detest evil things and be sickened by them, and I began to take joy in doing what is right, like a snowball effect. I still have a long way to go, and Yahweh willing I will one day be exactly what He wants me to be!
Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."
All youproved is that the Gentiles could partake with the Mosaic Covenant as it was given to Israel.
I said as laid out by Jesus and the Apostles. The Apostles gave us the meaning of Christ's coming and the events surrounding Jesus' ministry. Jesus was sent (apostle) to the Jews, Paul to the Gentiles.
Your word study on anomia is neither here nor there. True Born Again Christians have God's nature/law written on their hearts in the new birth.
I said as laid out by Jesus and the Apostles. The Apostles gave us the meaning of Christ's coming and the events surrounding Jesus' ministry. Jesus was sent (apostle) to the Jews, Paul to the Gentiles.
Your word study on anomia is neither here nor there. True Born Again Christians have God's nature/law written on their hearts in the new birth.
Dont take anything here personal, but if we are being honest these things must be taken into consideration, IMO.
So we agree here, when you said, "True Born Again Christians have God's nature/law written on their hearts in the new birth"
Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."
"Law" is word #H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah
Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them."
the word Law is: 3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law
Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; metion: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.
There is no way around it, the "Law" that is written on the hearts of those who accept Messiah is the Torah.
There is no debate on that IMO. IT IS WHAT SCRIPTURE CLEARLY STATES.
So how could one be a partaker of the Covenant ratified in the blood of Messiah and at the same time reject the Torah, if it is written on ones heart, they would love it, not ignore it, makes reasons why they can reject it, and simply make it of no effect?
Seems to me if it was in ones heart that person would abide inside those instruction, no matter if they had read it or not?
Yet how can one fight every precept and be in obedience?
So we agree here, when you said, "True Born Again Christians have God's nature/law written on their hearts in the new birth"
Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."
"Law" is word #H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah
Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them."
the word Law is: 3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law
Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; metion: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.
There is no way around it, the "Law" that is written on the hearts of those who accept Messiah is the Torah.
There is no debate on that IMO. IT IS WHAT SCRIPTURE CLEARLY STATES.
So how could one be a partaker of the Covenant ratified in the blood of Messiah and at the same time reject the Torah, if it is written on ones heart, they would love it, not ignore it, makes reasons why they can reject it, and simply make it of no effect?
Seems to me if it was in ones heart that person would abide inside those instruction, no matter if they had read it or not?
Yet how can one fight every precept and be in obedience?
Hizikya, Your incessant use of word translations really aren't needed but if you insist...
νόμος, ου, ὁ. with a basic meaning law, i. e. what is assigned or proper; (1) generally, any law in the judicial sphere (RO 7. 1); (2) as rule governing one 's conduct principle, law (RO 7. 23); (3) more specifically in the NT of the Mosaic system of legislation as revealing the divine will (the Torah) law (of Moses) (LU 2. 22); in an expanded sense, Jewish religious laws developed from the Mosaic law (Jewish) law (JN 18. 31; AC 23. 29); (4) as the collection of writings considered sacred by the Jews; (a) in a narrower sense, the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible, as comprising the law (MT 12. 5; GA 3. 10 b); (b) in a wider sense, the Old Testament Scriptures as a whole (MT 5. 18; RO 3. 19); (5) figuratively, as the Christian gospel, the new covenant, as furnishing a new principle to govern spiritual life law (RO 8. 2 a; HE 10. 16)
33. 333 νόμος (1) ου m τος nincludes:δόγμα [a]) a formalized rule (or set of rules) prescribing what people must do- law, ordinance, rule. νόμος [a]:ὅς οὐ κατὰ νόμον ἐντολῆς σαρκίνης γέγονεν he was not made (a priest) by the law of human decree HEB. 7:16. δόγμα [a]:παρεδίδοσαν αὐτοῖς φυλάσσειν τὰ δόγματα they delivered to them the rules which they were to obey ACT. 16:4.
The difference between a law and a command is that a law is enforced by sanctions from a society, while a command carries only the sanctions of the individual who commands. When, however, the people of Israel accepted the commands of God as the rules which they would follow and enforce, these became their laws.
The occurrence of νόμος two times in ROM. 8:2 poses certain problems of both translation and interpretation:ὁ γὰρ νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἠλευθέρωσέν σε ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου τῆς ἁμαρτίας καὶ τοῦ θανάτου for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus freed you from the law which leads to sin and death. In the second occurrence of νόμος, the meaning is clearly the rules and regulations of the OT law, but in the case of the first occurrence of νόμος, there is no such formulation of decrees. The reference in this instance must therefore be to certain basic principles. If, however, one understands νόμος in the sense of a type of abstract governing power, it is possible that the reference in the phrase νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς is to this governing power of the Spirit of life which frees one from the law which stipulates sin and death.
33. 333 νόμος (1) ου m τος nincludes:δόγμα [a]) a formalized rule (or set of rules) prescribing what people must do- law, ordinance, rule. νόμος [a]:ὅς οὐ κατὰ νόμον ἐντολῆς σαρκίνης γέγονεν he was not made (a priest) by the law of human decree HEB. 7:16. δόγμα [a]:παρεδίδοσαν αὐτοῖς φυλάσσειν τὰ δόγματα they delivered to them the rules which they were to obey ACT. 16:4.
The difference between a law and a command is that a law is enforced by sanctions from a society, while a command carries only the sanctions of the individual who commands. When, however, the people of Israel accepted the commands of God as the rules which they would follow and enforce, these became their laws.
The occurrence of νόμος two times in ROM. 8:2 poses certain problems of both translation and interpretation:ὁ γὰρ νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἠλευθέρωσέν σε ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου τῆς ἁμαρτίας καὶ τοῦ θανάτου for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus freed you from the law which leads to sin and death. In the second occurrence of νόμος, the meaning is clearly the rules and regulations of the OT law, but in the case of the first occurrence of νόμος, there is no such formulation of decrees. The reference in this instance must therefore be to certain basic principles. If, however, one understands νόμος in the sense of a type of abstract governing power, it is possible that the reference in the phrase νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς is to this governing power of the Spirit of life which frees one from the law which stipulates sin and death.
[3795] νόμος nomos 194x a law, Rom. 4:15; 1 Tim. 1:9; the Mosaic law, Mt. 5:17, et al. freq.; the Old Testament Scripture, Jn. 10:34; a legal tie, Rom. 7:2, 3; a law, a rule, standard, Rom. 3:27; a rule of life and conduct, Gal. 6:2, Jas. 1:25 [3551] See law.
νόμος, ου, ὁ. with a basic meaning law, i. e. what is assigned or proper; (1) generally, any law in the judicial sphere (RO 7. 1); (2) as rule governing one 's conduct principle, law (RO 7. 23); (3) more specifically in the NT of the Mosaic system of legislation as revealing the divine will (the Torah) law (of Moses) (LU 2. 22); in an expanded sense, Jewish religious laws developed from the Mosaic law (Jewish) law (JN 18. 31; AC 23. 29); (4) as the collection of writings considered sacred by the Jews; (a) in a narrower sense, the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible, as comprising the law (MT 12. 5; GA 3. 10 b); (b) in a wider sense, the Old Testament Scriptures as a whole (MT 5. 18; RO 3. 19); (5) figuratively, as the Christian gospel, the new covenant, as furnishing a new principle to govern spiritual life law (RO 8. 2 a; HE 10. 16)
33. 333 νόμος (1) ου m τος n
includes:δόγμα [a]) a formalized rule (or set of rules) prescribing what people must do- law, ordinance, rule. νόμος [a]:ὅς οὐ κατὰ νόμον ἐντολῆς σαρκίνης γέγονεν he was not made (a priest) by the law of human decree HEB. 7:16. δόγμα [a]:παρεδίδοσαν αὐτοῖς φυλάσσειν τὰ δόγματα they delivered to them the rules which they were to obey ACT. 16:4.The difference between a law and a command is that a law is enforced by sanctions from a society, while a command carries only the sanctions of the individual who commands. When, however, the people of Israel accepted the commands of God as the rules which they would follow and enforce, these became their laws.
The occurrence of νόμος two times in ROM. 8:2 poses certain problems of both translation and interpretation:ὁ γὰρ νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἠλευθέρωσέν σε ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου τῆς ἁμαρτίας καὶ τοῦ θανάτου for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus freed you from the law which leads to sin and death. In the second occurrence of νόμος, the meaning is clearly the rules and regulations of the OT law, but in the case of the first occurrence of νόμος, there is no such formulation of decrees. The reference in this instance must therefore be to certain basic principles. If, however, one understands νόμος in the sense of a type of abstract governing power, it is possible that the reference in the phrase νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς is to this governing power of the Spirit of life which frees one from the law which stipulates sin and death.
33. 333 νόμος (1) ου m τος n
includes:δόγμα [a]) a formalized rule (or set of rules) prescribing what people must do- law, ordinance, rule. νόμος [a]:ὅς οὐ κατὰ νόμον ἐντολῆς σαρκίνης γέγονεν he was not made (a priest) by the law of human decree HEB. 7:16. δόγμα [a]:παρεδίδοσαν αὐτοῖς φυλάσσειν τὰ δόγματα they delivered to them the rules which they were to obey ACT. 16:4.The difference between a law and a command is that a law is enforced by sanctions from a society, while a command carries only the sanctions of the individual who commands. When, however, the people of Israel accepted the commands of God as the rules which they would follow and enforce, these became their laws.
The occurrence of νόμος two times in ROM. 8:2 poses certain problems of both translation and interpretation:ὁ γὰρ νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἠλευθέρωσέν σε ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου τῆς ἁμαρτίας καὶ τοῦ θανάτου for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus freed you from the law which leads to sin and death. In the second occurrence of νόμος, the meaning is clearly the rules and regulations of the OT law, but in the case of the first occurrence of νόμος, there is no such formulation of decrees. The reference in this instance must therefore be to certain basic principles. If, however, one understands νόμος in the sense of a type of abstract governing power, it is possible that the reference in the phrase νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς is to this governing power of the Spirit of life which frees one from the law which stipulates sin and death.
[3795] νόμος nomos 194x a law, Rom. 4:15; 1 Tim. 1:9; the Mosaic law, Mt. 5:17, et al. freq.; the Old Testament Scripture, Jn. 10:34; a legal tie, Rom. 7:2, 3; a law, a rule, standard, Rom. 3:27; a rule of life and conduct, Gal. 6:2, Jas. 1:25 [3551] See law.
The moral aspect of the Torah as reflected by God's moral nature, yes, but mixing cloths? Dietary laws? New Moons? Sabbaths? Nope.
----------
I agree from the perspective that Laws can be categorized by type, but I fell as if they are dissected to ignore the ones that would force change in ones life. I know not all apply to every person.
The Sabbath is about connecting to Yahweh and to His will, that is not ceremony...
Yes there are Laws for priesthood that only Yahshua can now carry out, because the Law of the levitical priesthood was a placeholder just as a literal lamb was. This does not mean there are no priest Laws, how would Messiah make intercession?
Yet they get whole sale discarded...
Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
The Sabbath is about connecting to Yahweh and to His will, that is not ceremony...
Yes there are Laws for priesthood that only Yahshua can now carry out, because the Law of the levitical priesthood was a placeholder just as a literal lamb was. This does not mean there are no priest Laws, how would Messiah make intercession?
Yet they get whole sale discarded...
Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
LOL I hear that one alot
No it is one day set aside 100% for the Creator, not 20%, not 50%, not 99%, but 100% it is rather joyful, energizing, peaceful and centers one for the rest of the week.
It is like a practice or training day.
and what does the Sabbath point toward? The 1,000 yr reign, the true rest. There will be no satanic influence in that time.
No it is one day set aside 100% for the Creator, not 20%, not 50%, not 99%, but 100% it is rather joyful, energizing, peaceful and centers one for the rest of the week.
It is like a practice or training day.
and what does the Sabbath point toward? The 1,000 yr reign, the true rest. There will be no satanic influence in that time.
The 1000 year reign IS THE REST.
Amazing prophecy alert!
Hosheyah (Hosea) 6:1-3, "Come, and let us return to Yahweh! Although He has torn, yet He will heal us; He has wounded, but He will bind us up. After two days He will revive us; in the third day He will raise us up, and we will live in His sight. Then let us acknowledge, let us pursue the knowledge of Yahweh. His appearing is as certain as the morning. He will come to us like the rain, like the former and latter rain, to the earth"
Amazing prophecy alert!
Hosheyah (Hosea) 6:1-3, "Come, and let us return to Yahweh! Although He has torn, yet He will heal us; He has wounded, but He will bind us up. After two days He will revive us; in the third day He will raise us up, and we will live in His sight. Then let us acknowledge, let us pursue the knowledge of Yahweh. His appearing is as certain as the morning. He will come to us like the rain, like the former and latter rain, to the earth"
Y
Q. "Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?"
A. "We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."
Peter Geierman, The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1951) p. 50
Q. "How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?"
A. "By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping the Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded them by the same church."
Henry Tuberville, An Abridgement of the Christian Doctrines, 1833, p. 58
They are the Ten Commandments. Not the Ten Suggestions!
1 John 2:3,4 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
It's all there in black and white.
A. "We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."
Peter Geierman, The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1951) p. 50
Q. "How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?"
A. "By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping the Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded them by the same church."
Henry Tuberville, An Abridgement of the Christian Doctrines, 1833, p. 58
They are the Ten Commandments. Not the Ten Suggestions!
1 John 2:3,4 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
It's all there in black and white.
Galatians 5:13
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
E
you still do not understand. Obedience comes from loving others. Scripture makes it clear. We LOVE because GOD FIRST LOVED US. It is God who fills us with his love and forgiveness, which empowers us to love others. And this is how we become more christlike. Not by following the law. As paul says, the law is the knowledge of sin and death.
Take a look at the life of Christ in the Gospels. How he interacted with people. No matter who they were. Are we that way? or are we still treating people with biases. Even those who treat us bad. How many of us can say forgive them, when are causing us great pain? yet Christ did.
Look at the OT, His patience and lovingkindness of his chosen people Hundreds of years of sin and adultry against him before he said enough is enough. And even today, How he promises one day to restore them. Can we be this way.
The guideline for a child of God is not the law. The law has already tutored them and brought them to Christ.
The guidline is how well we love and forgive everyone placed in our lives no matter who they are. the way God has proven for over 6000 years now his true love and forgiveness of all men.
Take a look at the life of Christ in the Gospels. How he interacted with people. No matter who they were. Are we that way? or are we still treating people with biases. Even those who treat us bad. How many of us can say forgive them, when are causing us great pain? yet Christ did.
Look at the OT, His patience and lovingkindness of his chosen people Hundreds of years of sin and adultry against him before he said enough is enough. And even today, How he promises one day to restore them. Can we be this way.
The guideline for a child of God is not the law. The law has already tutored them and brought them to Christ.
The guidline is how well we love and forgive everyone placed in our lives no matter who they are. the way God has proven for over 6000 years now his true love and forgiveness of all men.
E
This is a cop out. I am sorry, I grew up in legalism, and people using these excuses. that we must not have enough faith or we would obey the ten. They were fakes. I almost left God because of these lies. I could not witness to anyone, because witnessing to me was judging people for their sins, and demanding they stop BEFORE God will even think of saving them.
We as humans in adam have a sin nature, this nature is self motivated, It can not do any good. It is powerful, it is anti-God (anti-Love) and is incapable of loving others in a way God created us to love (it can act like it loves, but is always self motivated)
That is why one who does not have true faith in Christ will nto do works as James said, It can not do works (again it can pretend and look like good works. but deep inside it is wicked in Gods eyes, and considered bloody rags)
the power of this nature is overcome when a person comes to Christ. As you said, we have the HS. But it does not happen overnight, It may take years for some to break the power of the flesh, and learn to trust Christ, Some may come ALOT quicker. But it will not come overnight.
so to say since you were saved you have never broke one of the ten. Sorry, I can not by that. Your flesh will still struggle. Paul (after being an extreme lawyer and follower of the law) could not overcome it through all he endured for Christ, even after seeing the third heaven.
We need to learn to love, we can not love until we experience Gods love. Until we learn love, we will still struggle mightily with the flesh. We may look good on the outside (as far as the ten go) but we most likely look a mess on the inside.