Is Christianity Monotheistic or has it become a Polytheistic religion?

[MahogonySnail]

I did not need to add to scripture or read anything into it , you do. I just accept it as written ''God manifest Himself in the flesh''. It does not say was ''shown through the son'' that is you adaptation to fit your view. If you accept it as written then you would understand that God Himsdelf was manifest in the flesh as the Son. You are right, God remained in Heaven, God became a man while remaining the omni present, eternal Spirit of Heaven and earth. (You see God can do that He is God) As far as Jesus not claiming to be the Father you are wrong. I have already posted His claim to Philip, but I will repost it in case you missed.
John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

I believe God manifested Himself in the flesh. But that doesn't mean the Son was the Father. Look up the meaning of the word manifest. It means shows. For some reason you interpret it to mean "is". After reading John 14:7 I would not say Jesus IS the Father. I would say Jesus shows the Father. Jesus was telling them that if they know and see Him, they know the Father. That does not mean that Jesus is the Father, Jesus was not saying that at all.


Here are some verses that clearly state Jesus was the image of God, not "Jesus was God":

Image means representation or likeness.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

2Co 4:4 in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving ones, so that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ (who is the image of God) should not dawn on them.

Contrast John 14:7 with John 9, where Jesus explains who he is as the Son of God, not as the Father God. Jesus never said He was the Father, never. It makes no sense for Jesus to refer to himself both as the Son and the Father. He is either one or the other.

Joh 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and finding him, He said to him, Do you believe on the Son of God?
Joh 9:36 And he answered and said, Who is He, Lord, that I might believe on Him?
Joh 9:37 And Jesus said to him, You have both seen Him, and it is He who is speaking with you.

You are right, God remained in Heaven, God became a man while remaining the omni present, eternal Spirit of Heaven and earth. (You see God can do that He is God)

Please quote one bible verse where it says "God became a man". God (the Father) didn't actually become a man, God sent His Son. (1 Jn 4) not Himself:

1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.


It was the Son who came down from heaven, not the Father. It was the Son who was born of Mary, not the Father. Did the Father conceive Himself in Mary's womb? Nope. If He did, Jesus wouldn't have been a Son.



Verses such as 2 Jn 1:9 would not make sense if you believe the Son was also the Father, do you read the last verse as "he has both the Father and the Father". ? :

2Jn 1:9 Everyone transgressing and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:3 calls Jesus the "Son of the Father", not the Father, and note that the Father and Jesus Christ are referred to as two different persons, not as one person:

2Jn 1:3 Grace will be with you, mercy and peace from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

And simple common sense and reasoning should tell us that Jesus praying/communicating to Himself in heaven or vice versa is rediculous. In fact there would have been no reason for Jesus to pray to the Father in heaven at all if he himself was the Father. And no reason for Jesus to tell them to pray to the Father in heaven, if they could have simply prayed to Jesus whilst he was on earth (if Jesus was in fact the Father).

Re:
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you orphans. I will come to you.

You mentioned this verse in an earlier post supposedly proving that Jesus is the Spirit. But if you look up to verse 16, it says God shall give them another Comforter.
Another means what it means - someone different.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever,

 

[sonofjay817]

I can settle all this right now! Just read The Shack!

(Tongue planted firmly in cheek)

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I believe God manifested Himself in the flesh. But that doesn't mean the Son was the Father. Look up the meaning of the word manifest. It means shows. For some reason you interpret it to mean "is". After reading John 14:7 I would not say Jesus IS the Father. I would say Jesus shows the Father. Jesus was telling them that if they know and see Him, they know the Father. That does not mean that Jesus is the Father, Jesus was not saying that at all.


Here are some verses that clearly state Jesus was the image of God, not "Jesus was God":
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So you do not believe Jesus is God at all. That will bring the fury of the Trinitarian much more than I have.

All trinitarians believe Jesus IS God.

If you do not believe Jesus to be God you are an Arian not Trinitarian and even more of a heretic than I

 

[sonofjay817]

I think it would behoove us to acknowledge that the word "trinity" was created by a council, but let's not undermine councils as they have been going on since the original inception of the church starting with the original apostles to settle hard issues.

One thing that strikes me odd about this issue is that the Bible does not really put any emphasis on it. We struggle and agonize with trying to reconcile some of the things that might at first seem contradictory regarding the nature and unity of the Godhead, but it seems to me that it must not be as important for us to understand it, as to accept it. In fact, this controversy rather reminds me of the whole issue of God's sovereignty vs. man's free will. I don't mean to open up a different debate on this thread, but it serves for a good analogy. The scriptures seem to hint in some areas that those who come to salvation is determined by God and yet in many others, it emphasizes man's responsiblity. Calvinism is a good example of drawing out a stream of logic too far till errors are arrived at. The Calvinists believe that only certain individuals are ever wooed by God and all others are condemned to eternal ****ation without repentance ever even being a possibility for them. They believe God creates souls purely for the sake of destroying them and He takes pleasure in this. Open theism is an example of going too far the other way stressing man's free will, till you have a God who doesn't even know for sure what the future holds. We must be careful of this. Our human pride compels us to figure everything out when sometimes we need to leave the secret things with God in this lifetime. So it is with the trinity issue. We can very easily fall into error if we impose too much of our limited understanding upon it.

Both sides of this debate should admit there are some hard things to reconcile here, and while I believe we can get some idea of the nature of the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, there comes a point when we should just stop trying to get our minds around it and believe. Maybe it would help to concentrate on what we can all agree on that the scripture says. I'm sure we all know John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". This passage declares that the Word is God. It also seems to say that the Word is somehow other than God by the use of the preposition "with" God. This is not describing the state of affairs when Christ was on Earth, but this is the eternal condition of these personages. Wingsofeagles, I ask you, why even have this part of the statement, "the Word was with God" if there is not some otherness to the Word. What would be the point of stating it like that?

When Jesus is making the point to the Jews that the Messiah is to be prominent over David even though He comes after and is descended from David, He alludes to a stunning reference by David that speaks also to this issue. "The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand while I make your enemies a footstool." Here we have a dialogue between the Father and the Son in their eternal, heavenly condition. When Stephen was being stoned he exclaims that He sees Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father. I think efforts are made to somehow get around these passages because the Scriptures is so explicit that there is only one God and also because there are instances when the scriptures indicate a unity between the two that we can't quite understand and that doesn't seem to exist in our personal experience here in this life.

Wingsofeagles, one thing that it seems to me that creates a difficulty for you is the thought of more than one person yet one God. You seem to equate a plurality of Persons with a plurality of Gods. Maybe it would help us to broaden our idea of what it means to be God. If we consider God to be infinite, there could not possibly be more than one God for you cannot have multiple infinities. God IS one, there can be no debate about that if one believes the Bible. However, the concept of one God composed of three person does not necessarily conflict with monotheism.

Think now to the passage, "Hear now Israel, the Lord your God is one God". Its sort of an awkward way to say that if God is merely affirming one God as opposed to many gods (which is true of course). It seems like if that is all He was saying He could have said, "Hear Israel, there is only one God" or "there is no God but I". My name is Jason. If I was the only Jason in the whole world, I wouldn't say, "I am Jason, I am one". Granted, this could simply be due to translational issues, but it could signify something deeper. The statement seems to speak to the unity of God Himself. Keep in mind that the Hebrew word that is translated God here is "Elohim" and this word has an aspect of plurality to it. Since I don't have a working knowledge of Hebrew, I can't really explore that but it occurs to me that the statement "Elohim is one" may be not only saying that there are not many gods, but only one God, but may also be emphasizing that the "Elohim" (remember plurality) is one.

Your exclusion of the possiblity of three Persons, yet one God is based on your idea that one God necessitates one Person. The scripture does not state this. In fact, as I have been trying to say, it strongly hints otherwise. You must admit that trinitarians did not come up with the idea of the trinity out of thin air. There are hints of it all in scripture. The three Persons of the Godhead are always united in perfect unity of purpose in a way we can't fully understand, to the extent that it does not compromise the idea of one God.

Keep in mind the scriptures tell us that Jesus is the Word, or the Logos, of God. The Word proceeds from the Father and was always with Him. The Word always does the will of the Father and the Word is the creative force of the Father. Think of it in terms of you and the word that proceeds from your mouth. The word is other than you yet a part of you. It can't do anything apart from your will. You are united with it and it did not exist before or after you yet has always proceeded from you. Somehow in the divine economy of things, this Word is actually a Person, yet is indeed still God.

 

[sonofjay817]

So you do not believe Jesus is God at all. That will bring the fury of the Trinitarian much more than I have.

All trinitarians believe Jesus IS God.

If you do not believe Jesus to be God you are an Arian not Trinitarian and even more of a heretic than I

I must admit, I was surprised at this statement by Mahogany and hope he/she simply mispoke and does not really believe that Jesus was not God.

 

[Slepsog4]

Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am He you will die in your sins." (John 8:24)

Teaching error about the nature of Christ is eternally serious.

 

[MahogonySnail]

So you do not believe Jesus is God at all. That will bring the fury of the Trinitarian much more than I have.

All trinitarians believe Jesus IS God.

If you do not believe Jesus to be God you are an Arian not Trinitarian and even more of a heretic than I .

I must admit, I was surprised at this statement by Mahogany and hope he/she simply mispoke and does not really believe that Jesus was not God.

I am using the word God to mean God the Father. If Jesus ever said He was God (the Father), please provide the scripture. I can quote you many scriptures where Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of God. The Son of God is as much God as God the Father. Arianism -not at all. I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. That is the belief that the Son and Father didn't coexist eternally, or was a created being.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I am using the word God to mean God the Father. If Jesus ever said He was God (the Father), please provide the scripture. I can quote you many scriptures where Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of God. The Son of God is as much God as God the Father. Arianism -not at all. I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. That is the belief that the Son and Father didn't coexist eternally, or was a created being.

Jesus was indeed the Son of God through His humanity, however He also God. We know (or should know) that there is only one God and that one God is the Father Jesus Himself tells us this when praying to the Father at the start of John 17
John 17:1-3
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Jesus Himself tells us that the Father is the only true God, and Paul confirms this in 1st Corinthians 8:6
1st Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Do we or do we not accept what scripture teaches us. If Jesus deity was not God the Father then Jesus was not deity at all, because there is only one God and that God is God the Father.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am He you will die in your sins." (John 8:24)

Teaching error about the nature of Christ is eternally serious.

I do not think anyone is denying that Jesus is He (The Messiah) however there are many that are in error about the nature of Christ, and I believe you slep are one of those. We do need to forget all we have learned from man and begin to allow God to show us His pure truth.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Jesus was indeed the Son of God through His humanity, however He also God.

Couldn't agree more. Jesus is not the Father though, Jesus is the Son. It's plainly obvious to most people that this is the case when they read the bible.

We know (or should know) that there is only one God and that one God is the Father Jesus Himself tells us this when praying to the Father at the start of John 17

There is only one God, in three persons - Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

John 17:1-3
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Jesus Himself tells us that the Father is the only true God,

It means the only true God compared to all the false idols and gods. "Father is the only true God" does not exclude Christ, who as Christ said in John 10:30 " I and the Father are one". But this does not mean that the Son is the Father. Christ never said "I am the Father", Christ said "I am the Son". Because in the previous verse Jesus refers to the Father (not himself) as another person:

Joh 10:29 My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.


So don't ignore the bit "and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. ", who shares in the Divine nature of God., who we must know as well as the Father to have eternal life.


Now the Jews thought that Jesus made himself God, which He did in essence:

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself God.

However Jesus makes clear that He is the Son of God:

Joh 10:36 do you say of Him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, You blaspheme, because I said, I am the Son of God?

And that the Father is in Him and He in the Father:

Joh 10:38 But if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works so that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.
But Christ did not say "I am the Father".

As the Son He shared in all the Divine qualities of the Father, and so Jesus is as much God as God the Father. But the Father was not Jesus, because Jesus did His Father's will, not his own will:

Mat 26:42 He went away again the second time and prayed, saying, My Father, if this cup may not pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.

If Jesus was the Father, Jesus would have done His own will.

and Paul confirms this in 1st Corinthians 8:6
1st Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Do we or do we not accept what scripture teaches us. If Jesus deity was not God the Father then Jesus was not deity at all, because there is only one God and that God is God the Father.

Are you saying that Jesus is not God? If Jesus is God (the Father) , is there two father gods?

 

[MahogonySnail]

These verses here pretty much refute your claim that Christ (the Son) is the same as the Father:




1Co 15:24 then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.


So if Christ is the Father, does He deliver the kingdom of God to Himself?

1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.

Because how can the Father subject to Himself?

 

[olivetree32]

i believe jesus was God in the flesh. And i also like that if you do a study on I AM , its great. We all know who the great I AM is. and also, i belive in the trinity, Father spirit and Son, three in one. There are things that we will never comprehend, and even the love of God and how He loves us so much, we will never fully understand that kind of love folks. the bible says, lean not on your own understanding in proverbs 3 so its best if we just look to Jesus. And we all know, are ways are not His ways, and our thoughts are not His thoughts
Jhn 7:29But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.
Luk 22:70Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.oh and i agree with Sonofjay that in the begining was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. We also know that Jesus was with God in the begining if you read Genisis chapter 1. All of this is to great to understand somtimes, but God is the great I AM!

 

[olivetree32]

my pastor would always say, its ok God I don't have to know everything and thats ok. Right? We will never completly understand the ways of our Great I AM.

 

[sonofjay817]

Onwingsaseagles, I'd love some feedback on my long post on this page. I spent a lot of time on that blasted thing ! ; )

 

[jc4me]

JOhn 11In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Couldn't agree more. Jesus is not the Father though, Jesus is the Son.

If Jesus is not the Father, He is not God at all

There is only one God, in three persons - Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

This is a mans teaching, no where in the Bible does it teach this.

It means the only true God compared to all the false idols and gods. "Father is the only true God" does not exclude Christ, who as Christ said in John 10:30 " I and the Father are one". But this does not mean that the Son is the Father. Christ never said "I am the Father", Christ said "I am the Son". Because in the previous verse Jesus refers to the Father (not himself) as another person:

You continue to twist and add to scripture. Jesus meant exactly what He said that the Father is the only true God period. The in no such being as God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. The Son is the man Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father.

Are you saying that Jesus is not God? If Jesus is God (the Father) , is there two father gods?

There is one God, one Lord and one Spirit ect...Jesus is God the only true God the Father manifest as a man. Now the Bible tells us there is only one Spirit of God but if the Father is a Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit and they are separate wouldn't that be 2 Spirits?

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all

So the Bible says there is only 1 Spirit how many Spirits do you say there are?

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Onwingsaseagles, I'd love some feedback on my long post on this page. I spent a lot of time on that blasted thing ! ; )

It was an interesting post, however My refusal to accept the Trinity is not because God is one, but because God has shown me revelation of the truth. That being said God could be 1 in 3 however Jesus tell us a s I stated earlier that not only is God one , but that one God is the Father, There is not God the Son or God the Holy Spirit in scripture. Every single time God is mentioned it is referring to the Father. There when John 1: Says the Word was God, it is referring to God the Father, and Whne in John 1:14 it says the Word which is God the Father became flesh it is once again saying as I have been that God the Father became flesh.

You see trinitarians think that there was God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit in Heaven, and that ''God the Son'' became a man. This is not true God Himself the Father Became a man while remaining the eternal Spirit of Heaven and earth at the same time.


The Oneness view is not with out whole, but it is much more biblical with lss wholes than the tritarian view. The Oneness view is the truth of scripture, the trinitarian view is man trying to figure out how to explain an unexpalinable God.

#1 The Father is God, Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God.
#2 However Jesus Christ is also the Father and the Father is the Holy Spirit.
#3 In other words there is one God the Father, who came in a body (the Son) and who is the Eternal Spirit (the Holy Spirit). So I believe that the Father came in the flesh as Jesus, and is a Spirit ''The Holy Spirit''.
#4 So it is similar to the Trinity doctrine in that we have 3 who are one, but Oneness doctrine says that the 3 ''persons'' are not separate, but actually the same 1, who is God.

This is what the Bible teaches us. Trinitarians claim God is 1 God in 3 person or that God is 3 in 1, but the Bible tells us even the scripture that trinitarians use 1st John 5:7 that the 3 are 1 not that the 1 God is 3 or that there are 3 person in 1 God but that the 3 Father, Word, and Spirit ARE indeed 1

 

[onwingsaseagles]

THE DOCTRINE OF ONENESS:
God is one and has always been one. Jesus is the man God became. Jesus did not exist before incarnation as God the Son. In His pre-incarnate state, He existed as the Father, God Himself. Now the two of them are in heaven together, God the Father and the man he became, the Son of God, Jesus Christ. The problem is that when I say the Father became a man people think it means I believe he stopped being an eternal Spirit after incarnation and that heaven was empty. This is not what I believe. God the Father continued to exist as a transendant, unlimited Spirit, while also becoming a man. The Father did not become confined to a human existence. It is not as though the omnipresent Spirit of God transformed himself into a man, to the exclusion of His existence as the Holy Spirit.
When God assumed a human existence with a complete human mind, psyche, will, and emotion etc. He was distinct from the Father while he continued to exist as the Father in heaven. As a genuine human being, Jesus was and is distinct from the Father. This is because of His humanity not because he is the second person of the Trinity. While I confess that the deity of the Son did pre-exist incarnation, I do not see that deity as the second person of the Trinity, known as " God the Son ", and separate from the Father or Holy Spirit, but rather as the uni-personal God of the old testament. Yahweh, the Father, the Great I Am.
Concerning the Holy Spirit, I believe He is the Spirit of God the Father and not a separate person of the Trinity, the third person known as " God the Holy Spirit. " The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, He is the Spirit of the Father, He is the Spirit of Christ. God is a Spirit, the Holy Spirit. There is one God not three, nor are there three persons that create one God. He is one uni-personal God that He himself became flesh. There is no such person as God the son nor God the Holy Spirit but only God the Father, the son of God and the Spirit of God.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

JESUS IS FULLY GOD:
Jesus is God, completely God, He is God the Father, the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit, not one-third God (God the Son). Most churches teach Jesus to be God the Son. Yet, they insist that he is fully God and fully man, but if you relegate Jesus to just the Son, then he is not fully God if God is Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.If you have 3 parts that make 1 whole then 1 of those parts would be 1/3 of the whole. Jesus referred to himself as the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit on separate occasions. References to Jesus referring himself as the Father: John 14:7-9 and as the Holy Spirit: John 14:16-18

DISTINGUISHING JESUS FROM THE FATHER:
If Jesus was God, and if God is one then why does there seem to be a distinction between the Father and Jesus. Paul separated them in every epistle he wrote. Look at Romans 1:1-4, I Corinthians 1:3, II Corinthians 1:2-3, Galatians 1:3-4, Ephesians 1:2-3, Philippians 1:2,Colossians 1:2-3, I Thessalonians 1:1, II Thessalonians 1:1-2, I Timothy 1:2, II Timothy 1:1-2, Titus 1:4, Philemon 1:3.
You see Jesus is God, fully God, 1 Timothy 1:1 and Titus 2:13 he was also man, fully man made in every way like unto us. Hebrews 2:17
It was the man Jesus Christ that was born of Mary as the Son of God. He lived as an example to show us how to live. He remained sinless, died for our sins, rose again in a glorified body, ascended to the Father and is now sitting on the right hand of God. References: Romans 1:3-4, II Corinthians 5:16-19, Ephesians 1:20-21, Philippians 2:5-11, Colossians 1:21-22, Timothy 2:5-6,
The man Jesus Christ chose to remain sinless, and died for our sins but it was God the Father who chose to become a man. St. John 1:1-3 & 14, The distinction between Jesus and the Father does not seperate God the Father from God the Son. It does separate Jesus' divinity from his humanity. His humanity was the Son of God and his divinity was God, the Father himself.
The incarnation of God was actual and permanent. The man Jesus Christ will never cease to exist, just as you and I will never cease to exist and He will always be distinguished from the Father.
JESUS WAS FULLY MAN:
I have not heard many explanations on this subject except that Jesus was fully man. What does that consist of? What is the difference between the Son of God and God the Son? Which is Jesus? The answer would be that was the Son of God. The Son of God was the man Jesus Christ who, although was born free of original sin, had a human nature ( the flesh ). Yet, he was also fully God. Free of original sin but capable of it. He lived a sinless life, becoming a sufficient sacrifice for the sins of the world.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

This is the main thing you need to understand about God,Jesus and the incarnation ''The incarnation of God was actual and permanent. The man Jesus Christ will never cease to exist, just as you and I will never cease to exist and He will always be distinguished from the Father.''

The man Jesus Christ is on the right hand of the Father because of the incarnation not because He is a separate person of the God head. The fullness of the God head dwelt in Christ bodily. He was and is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit personified.