Works and Salvation

[newbirth]

ZZZZZZZZ.....droning away with false doctrine will not make it sound doctrine.

Water baptism never saves only Holy Spirit baptism. As long as you deny the third part of the Godhead you will never come to the knowledge of the truth.

Like Cain you prefer your gospel to Gods gospel even though the sin offering lies at the door. One day like King Agrippa you will say almost thou persuades me. Almost never quite there. Sad so very sad and avoidable.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the cause of Christ
Roger

we are saved by grace through faith.....[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Only man made opinion, from man made doctrine with no scripture to back it up, you cannot show one single Holy Spirit baptism other than the Apostles and the house of Cornelius... not one.

This is because they still want to take the water factor out of baptism done by us, humankind.
Both the old covenant and the new were dedicated through water and blood.


The first covenant;

Hebrews 9:18-20
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.


1 Corinthians 10:1-2
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

Cloud= symbolism for the spirit

Sea=symbolism for the water



The new covenant;


Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:




Matthew 28:16-20
The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing (Baptizo ) them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


The part that Jesus changed from John's baptism to the one He ordered the Apostles to do was not the usage of water, but the purpose of the baptizing. John's - remission of sins, Apostles- in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
This is the water part that ushered in and dedicated the new covenant, and the blood we know.

It was our Lord Jesus blood. His crucifixion.

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

This scripture shows symbolism on how the new covenant is dedicated with blood and water both.

 

[newbirth]

So what is your answered to my question than.

If one believe and have faith in Jesus than die after 10 second before have a chance for water baptism, do he go to heaven or hell

my answer would depend on what you mean by believe and have faith... notice what these people do when they believe....
Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Acts 18:8
And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

if you think believe and have faith means do nothing then he is not saved according to scripture...if you are boarding a bus and you believe you have a ticket in your pocket but when you search you cannot find any do you still get a bus ride because you believe you have a ticket ......faith without works is dead bro...God is not a respecter of persons....if per chance the person is on the way to be baptised and they die there is no reason to doubt God can look at it as an act completed..and thus he is saved...but I have no scripture to back that claim....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is because they still want to take the water factor out of baptism done by us, humankind.
Both the old covenant and the new were dedicated through water and blood.


The first covenant;

Hebrews 9:18-20
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.


1 Corinthians 10:1-2
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

Cloud= symbolism for the spirit

Sea=symbolism for the water



The new covenant;


Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:




Matthew 28:16-20
The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing (Baptizo ) them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


The part that Jesus changed from John's baptism to the one He ordered the Apostles to do was not the usage of water, but the purpose of the baptizing. John's - remission of sins, Apostles- in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
This is the water part that ushered in and dedicated the new covenant, and the blood we know.

It was our Lord Jesus blood. His crucifixion.

John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

This scripture shows symbolism on how the new covenant is dedicated with blood and water both.

no, we want to take Man out of doing the work of God for salvation.

Water in the OT and new represents the washing of God. It was never physical water which saved men, And never will be.

 

[Jabberjaw]

no, we want to take Man out of doing the work of God for salvation.

Water in the OT and new represents the washing of God. It was never physical water which saved men, And never will be.

You cannot take man out of the covenant, a covenant is an agreement, God agrees to do His part, man must agree to do his part to put man in covenant with God.

You just think God will do all and you set on the couch

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You cannot take man out of the covenant, a covenant is an agreement, God agrees to do His part, man must agree to do his part to put man in covenant with God.

You just think God will do all and you set on the couch

lol.. You do not understand all covenants.

God made a covenant with abraham. And did not ask him to do anything in return, he said I WILL. and HE DID what he promised.

Yeah God did say man has a part. Have faith in him, He did all the work.

But you want to add your works to the gospel to puff yourself up. And you think God is going to honor those works? You do not know God at all.

 

[Kerry]

It always goes back to the cross

 

[Jackson123]

my answer would depend on what you mean by believe and have faith... notice what these people do when they believe....
Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Acts 18:8
And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

if you think believe and have faith means do nothing then he is not saved according to scripture...if you are boarding a bus and you believe you have a ticket in your pocket but when you search you cannot find any do you still get a bus ride because you believe you have a ticket ......faith without works is dead bro...God is not a respecter of persons....if per chance the person is on the way to be baptised and they die there is no reason to doubt God can look at it as an act completed..and thus he is saved...but I have no scripture to back that claim....

You answered is He go to hell because not being water baptize yet.
Am I correct?

You don't agree with Catholic brother.

Catholic believe not only unbaptized, Islam is include in the plan of salvation.

 

[Jabberjaw]

lol.. You do not understand all covenants.

God made a covenant with abraham. And did not ask him to do anything in return, he said I WILL. and HE DID what he promised.

Yeah God did say man has a part. Have faith in him, He did all the work.

But you want to add your works to the gospel to puff yourself up. And you think God is going to honor those works? You do not know God at all.

[FONT=&quot]COVENANT[/FONT] A pact, treaty, alliance, or agreement between two parties of equal or of unequal authority. The convenant or testament is a central, unifying theme in Scripture, God’s covenants with individuals and the nation Israel finding final fulfillment in the new covenant in Christ Jesus. God’s covenants can be understood by humans because they are modeled on human covenants or treaties.
Holman Bible Dictionary.

Nowhere does the bible say God did all the work. all you have is opinion.

 

[newbirth]

You answered is He go to hell because not being water baptize yet.
Am I correct?

You don't agree with Catholic brother.

Catholic believe not only unbaptized, Islam is include in the plan of salvation.

I agree with scripture....have I not shown you scripture? All Catholic doctrine are not scriptural...Everyone is included in God's salvation plan...as long as you obey His word....People will go to hell because they don't believe God's word or disobedience/rebellion.....

 

[SarahM777]

[/COLOR]are you serious? I am beside myself

SHow me where they died BEFORE in between the time they had a living faith in the word and did the act which showed their faith was real?

Do you people ever listen to yourselves?

God is OUTSIDE OF TIME. He knew who would be saved BEFORE the world began, No one is EVER GOING to do something that God did not already KNOW they would do.

The people were saved the MOMENT they trusted God. It is their FAITH which caused them to act.

You ignore the fact it was the serpant which saved them, you totally destroy the symbolism of the whole thing.

Jesus is the serpant. He was lifted up on the cross. God calls us to LOOK ON HIM and YOU WILL BE SAVED. where is the work? where is all the things all these people say we must do to be saved? It is not found, in the NT gospel. or in this symbolic representation of the gospel.

Call on the name of the lord, and you will be saved, Look to the cross. That is what we are called to do.

No matter how much you want to slice it,dice it and put it through a blender one must do in order to be saved,that is exactly what you say MUST happen. How can one be saved if one does NOT call the on the name Lord? In order to be saved you must do it,if you do NOT do it you can not be saved.

 

[mailmandan]

No.

The answer is yes because John 3:18 - He who (is water baptized? NO) believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not (get water baptized? NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? NO) has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Mk 16:16 he that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not (get baptized? NO) does not believe will be condemned. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

If one can be saved without being baptized then one can be saved without believing,

False. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say that whoever is not baptized will be condemned, yet it does say that whoever does not believe will be condemned (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18).

An atheist is on an airplane about to nose-dive into the ground. In his last moments he begins to believe there is a 'higher power' and after-life, but dies in the crash not know exactly who or what to believe. He would have believed if he had more time. Will he be saved anyway in his unbelief?

Do you really believe that if God knew, if given the right amount of time, this atheist would come to believe the gospel and be saved, that He would not make sure that the gospel message got to him beforehand? Don't put God in a box. Simply believing there is a "higher power" and after-life is not enough to save. We must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.

 

[newbirth]

Do you really believe that if God knew, if given the right amount of time, this atheist would come to believe the gospel and be saved, that He would not make sure that the gospel message got to him beforehand? Don't put God in a box. Simply believing there is a "higher power" and after-life is not enough to save. We must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.

come on bro the guy is an atheist he already heard the gospel and rejected it.....that is why the gospel says today is the day of salvation....

 

[mailmandan]

come on bro the guy is an atheist he already heard the gospel and rejected it.....that is why the gospel says today is the day of salvation....

Lee Strobel was an atheist but eventually became a believer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No matter how much you want to slice it,dice it and put it through a blender one must do in order to be saved,that is exactly what you say MUST happen. How can one be saved if one does NOT call the on the name Lord? In order to be saved you must do it,if you do NOT do it you can not be saved.

what does this have to do with baptism in water, and all the other works people claim one must do to be saved.

Calling on the name of the lord is not a work. A work is something you can take credit for.

Who is going to stand on the street corner and puff himself up and brag about how he SAVED HIMSELF by admitting he was lost, without hope, and called on someone else to save his lost soul?

the only one who can get credit is God. God did the work, he is the one who saved you. All you did was admit you NEEDED saved in the first place (repented) Trusted God to do what he promised to do (Had faith) and Called on the name of the Lord, to recieve his gift (grace) of eternal life.

 

[mailmandan]

come on bro the guy is an atheist he already heard the gospel and rejected it.....that is why the gospel says today is the day of salvation....

SeaBass said "In his last moments he begins to believe there is a 'higher power' and after-life" NOT he heard a clear presentation of the gospel and rejected it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

COVENANT A pact, treaty, alliance, or agreement between two parties of equal or of unequal authority. The convenant or testament is a central, unifying theme in Scripture, God’s covenants with individuals and the nation Israel finding final fulfillment in the new covenant in Christ Jesus. God’s covenants can be understood by humans because they are modeled on human covenants or treaties.
Holman Bible Dictionary.

Nowhere does the bible say God did all the work. all you have is opinion.

well like you have no problem kicking your kids out of your house in sub zero weather because they stole a cookie you have no idea of covenants (promises) either

You as a parent promise to take care of your kids at a young age no matter what they do. including disciplineing them.

This is not a dual covenant it is a promise

God made a promise to abraham, In abrahams day, a dual covenant was agreed to by BOTH PARTIES walking between the carcusses. Meaning the covenant was bosed on both, if one broke it the covenant was null and void.

God put abraham to sleep. Abraham did not walk through the middle. Only God did. Because this was an I WILL promise between God and abraham. Not an you do this, and I will do that covenant.

But hey, you go ahead and worship a God who will make someone work before he even adopts him, and then will kick him out on the street for steeling a cookie. You go ahead and make Satan correct in his lie against God. Satan is your father, Not God. Because only satan would do what you claim. Not God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lee Strobel was an atheist but eventually became a believer.

Lee Stroble is an excellent read, He spoke at out church, great testimony!

 

[Jackson123]

I agree with scripture....have I not shown you scripture? All Catholic doctrine are not scriptural...Everyone is included in God's salvation plan...as long as you obey His word....People will go to hell because they don't believe God's word or disobedience/rebellion.....

If you read the scripture part by part, not going to work brother.

Scripture said to make animal sacrifice for remission. Then why not we do. It is because another scripture say something else.

Romans 10:13King James Version (KJV)


13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The greatest commandment is not water baptism. it is baptism/immerse in Jesus than bear the fruit like the verse bellow

Matt 22

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Unless you love the Lord with all your heart and your soul and your mind, you violate all the law, because all the law is hang on these commandment. It doesn't matter your doing 100 water baptism or immerse 100 feet below see level as long as you don't have love you violate the law.

 

[SarahM777]

what does this have to do with baptism in water, and all the other works people claim one must do to be saved.

Calling on the name of the lord is not a work. A work is something you can take credit for.

Who is going to stand on the street corner and puff himself up and brag about how he SAVED HIMSELF by admitting he was lost, without hope, and called on someone else to save his lost soul?

the only one who can get credit is God. God did the work, he is the one who saved you. All you did was admit you NEEDED saved in the first place (repented) Trusted God to do what he promised to do (Had faith) and Called on the name of the Lord, to recieve his gift (grace) of eternal life.

It has to do with OBEDIENCE. Can you be with saved WITHOUT OBEDIENCE? Would they have LIVED WITHOUT looking at the serpent on the pole? CAN you find a single one that lived WITHOUT obeying what God told them to do? They had to follow through with OBEDIENCE.