144,000

[eternally-gratefull]

God did say it, in other words, the promises are for the Church (which includes OT and NT Saints, not for a single nation, God does not show favoritism, especially now since the eternal purpose of God has been revealed, His church). The land promise was fulfilled as stated in Kings and Joshua, but further then that the land is a type for the whole world. Read carefully:

God did not promise the church land
God promised a nation land
Gods promise of the land was an eternal promise
God fulfilled it by giving them ALL he promised (as you showed) but that does not mean he is done, Forever means forever, it means as long as that land is still in existance, that the promise still is in place.

There are not in the land, in peace, because of their sin, But of they repent. God is bound by his promise to return them to the land.

There is no getting out of this brother.

Gen 17: 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

either God meant everlasting, or he did not. in which case he is a liar.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul doesn't explain what the falling away is in 2 Thessalonians. Paul is speaking to these Christians in about their concerns. There is nothing to indicate Paul was speaking of things that pertain to our future. If it was for us or later, these people wouldn't have clue what Paul is talking about. And since most of mainstream Christian view it for the future, they don't know what Paul is talking about. I would not base a whole doctrine on it...Paul could have meant Jerusalem falling away from Roman rule. The restrainer could have been Rome. The Lawlessness could have been a Jewish revolutionary leader. Paul could have been talking about near future current events. The passage is obscure at most.

think about it bro.

When daniel was given his prophesies concerning the 4 beasts. People (including him) had no idea the 4th beast would be rome, let alone who the second or third beast were.

When the prophesies concerning the suffering servant were given, People had no idea that this person and the messiah would be the same person

Prophesy is this way, We can not use as an excuse that people then could not know. that is how prophesy usually is.

That is why I can not know exactly how things will happen, Like those people back then, I just have to trust that God said it will happen, thus it will. And not question him.

 

[Bookends]

God did not promise the church land
God promised a nation land
Gods promise of the land was an eternal promise
God fulfilled it by giving them ALL he promised (as you showed) but that does not mean he is done, Forever means forever, it means as long as that land is still in existance, that the promise still is in place.

There are not in the land, in peace, because of their sin, But of they repent. God is bound by his promise to return them to the land.

There is no getting out of this brother.

Gen 17: 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

either God meant everlasting, or he did not. in which case he is a liar.

Like I said, the land is a type, God really isn't interested in land is He? He's interested in the world and His spiritual kingdom.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When they and if they Repent (as a nation) then they will have accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior. The time of the Gentiles is now, meaning NOW IS THE DAY OF OUR SALVATION!!! Paul just got done saying how the physical Jew gets saved, the same way the Gentile gets saved, by being grafted into the root, SO IN THIS MANNER, all Israel (true Israel, OT and NT Saints) will be saved. All believers are true ISRAEL. This is about individual salvation, not national...No where do you see anyone nation being saved (reconciled to the God).

So, they will be saved (which we agree) and spend eternity with us in Heaven (which we agree) which is the greatest thing in the world. for them and us

But God will not honor his promise to the fathers? and return them to the land? as he promised to do?

Sorry bro. I can not buy that, If God will not keep his promise to them, he has no reason to keep the promise of ETERNAL life to us, He can take it just because he gets fed up with us and our sin, and never give it back (just like your claiming he did Israel)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That time of testing as been around since Adam and Eve...It's past, present and future. God seems to like to test us, even though he knows our response. Perhaps it's for us, to build us up.

God speaks of a special time of testing. So since he spoke of a future event, it can not be what your claiming, because the testing had already been going on, God would not have made any sense to say there will be a time (age) of testing.

 

[Bookends]

think about it bro.

When daniel was given his prophesies concerning the 4 beasts. People (including him) had no idea the 4th beast would be rome, let alone who the second or third beast were.

When the prophesies concerning the suffering servant were given, People had no idea that this person and the messiah would be the same person

Prophesy is this way, We can not use as an excuse that people then could not know. that is how prophesy usually is.

That is why I can not know exactly how things will happen, Like those people back then, I just have to trust that God said it will happen, thus it will. And not question him.

And forever doesn't always mean forever. Do you really think the natural Jew will be confined to a little piece of land in the eternal state? Forever can be as long as an epic of time under or a dispensation of time, I can give you several examples if you like.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Which makes me think the temple Ezekiel sees is of a spiritual nature, for physical rivers get smaller as they branch out, river gets bigger and bigger, all fed from the same source.

this could be one way to see it.

Another way to see it is that this is the time God restores nature. And his living water flowing out heals the dead sea, which today is dead, and totally useless) and makes it usefull for mankind again.

 

[Bookends]

God speaks of a special time of testing. So since he spoke of a future event, it can not be what your claiming, because the testing had already been going on, God would not have made any sense to say there will be a time (age) of testing.

A time of testing God gives all of us, some more and some less. You need to give a scripture of this "special time of testing" so I can see what you are referring too. I'd direct you to Ecclesiastes 3.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Perhaps ignoring you isn't the only loving thing I can do. Maybe I should report you to the moderators for a reprimand or a possible banning so you can't further pile up the sins your accruing against me.

it is interesting this has happened to a few who believe as you do. He should heed the warning, because this type of discussing Gods word is not called for. no matter what you believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Like I said, the land is a type, God really isn't interested in land is He? He's interested in the world and His spiritual kingdom.

the land is not a type. it is a literal thing given to a people.

How would you feel if God gave you something, then turned around and said, its ok, it was just a type. so I do not have to keep my promise to your fathers, or you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And forever doesn't always mean forever. Do you really think the natural Jew will be confined to a little piece of land in the eternal state? Forever can be as long as an epic of time under or a dispensation of time, I can give you several examples if you like.

If forever is not forever (as long as it exists) then we have no hope do we? How can I hope God will keep his promise of eternal life, if forever does not mean forever?

The land of canaan will nto be in eternity. But it still existas today, So either the eternal promise stands, or God is a liar.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A time of testing God gives all of us, some more and some less. You need to give a scripture of this "special time of testing" so I can see what you are referring too. I'd direct you to Ecclesiastes 3.

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

[Bookends]

So, they will be saved (which we agree) and spend eternity with us in Heaven (which we agree) which is the greatest thing in the world. for them and us

But God will not honor his promise to the fathers? and return them to the land? as he promised to do?

Sorry bro. I can not buy that, If God will not keep his promise to them, he has no reason to keep the promise of ETERNAL life to us, He can take it just because he gets fed up with us and our sin, and never give it back (just like your claiming he did Israel)

When a Jew comes to Christ, God fulfills His promise and the Jew receives his inheritance (just like Noah, faithful Israelites of the OT, and NT Saints). Now that Jew receives the promise of eternal life with Christ forever. Who cares about the little strip of land over there (besides what spiritual implications we can gleam from it), besides that it's just like any other part of the world, imo.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When a Jew comes to Christ, God fulfills His promise and the Jew receives his inheritance (just like Noah, faithful Israelites of the OT, and NT Saints). Now that Jew receives the promise of eternal life with Christ forever. Who cares about the little strip of land over there (besides what spiritual implications we can gleam from it), besides that it's just like any other part of the world, imo.

who cares?

1. They do, it is theirs, it is precious to them, you want to know how precious it is to them, Read the first part of Daniel 9 and how he grieves over the land, destroyed because of him and his peoples sin.
2. God. God cares because he promised he would never forget his promise to them. He even promised when they were not in their land, And in the hands of their enemies, he would NEVER forget them, NEVER forget his promise to them, and NEVER let them die.

Now tell me, if the land and nation mean nothing to God. Why through the two gentile people who took Israel as slaves (syria and babylon) and the final and COMPLETE removal (which did not happen in the first two, for their were still people in the land, even in captivity) by the roman army, Did God care to keep their bloodline in tact, why did he not just let them intermingle with gentile people, and let the nation die off. I mean like you said, it does not matter, we are all saved the same way, and all that matters is heaven.

I know the reason why. He did not want them to die as a nation, because he made a promise to them, And he did nto want to break his promise or his love for them, as shown in Romans 11. And even in revelation. And all the OT prophesies concerning their dispersion (complete) and return. and even the fact he will PUNISH the nations who sinned against Israel and did not treat them with care when they were in their hands.

 

[Bookends]

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Jesus is telling the church of Philadelphia that, the whole world,, meaning whole land region, not the whole earth. The 1st Church was going through a tough time, persecution from both the Roman and Jewish governments and their people. You have to have know my answer EG. We may go though a similar think, idk. The spiritual true we can gleam from this is if we overcome the world, persevere, we win.

oikoumenē
1) the inhabited earth
1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians
1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world

Also, Earth, Greek word "ge"

Thayer Definition:
1) arable land
2) the ground, the earth as a standing place
3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water
4) the earth as a whole
4a) the earth as opposed to the heavens
4b) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
5) a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region

 

[kennethcadwell]

"God's wrath is not poured out tell after the end of the great tribulation"


This is where you make a false assumption

Revelation's unfolding of the events of the total tribulation period is all of His doing .... He will control all of it

All one has to do is to read the narrative and note where the judgment events are coming from .... it is the Lord who commands His angels involved as He brings unprecedented tribulation upon the earth dwellers for 2550 days [Jude 1:14-15]

If you do not think all of this setting is the Lord's wrath then you have no other explanation for it

Put the extra-biblical book that you are reading away and read your Bible

I understand where you are coming from in this thinking.
Yes God sends His angels to unleash the events that take place, which allows the antichrist/man of sin to come to power and come up against the saints and prevail against them. Believers that come to follow Jesus as Lord and Savior during the tribulation period are killed by the antichrist.
But then you must look at that context as well, and it says clearly God's wrath is poured out in the bowl judgments. This is where believers will no longer be here to endure. The dead in Christ will rise first, and then the believers who are still alive will rise and transformed in the air to be with the Lord. Then the bowl judgments of God are poured out on those that are left.

Revelation 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.


We see here that the vials ( bowl judgments ) are the wrath of God, and when you go back to chapter 14 this is when the great reaping of the earth takes place. Separating of believers from unbelievers before this wrath.

 

[Bookends]

who cares?

1. They do, it is theirs, it is precious to them, you want to know how precious it is to them, Read the first part of Daniel 9 and how he grieves over the land, destroyed because of him and his peoples sin.
2. God. God cares because he promised he would never forget his promise to them. He even promised when they were not in their land, And in the hands of their enemies, he would NEVER forget them, NEVER forget his promise to them, and NEVER let them die.

Now tell me, if the land and nation mean nothing to God. Why through the two gentile people who took Israel as slaves (syria and babylon) and the final and COMPLETE removal (which did not happen in the first two, for their were still people in the land, even in captivity) by the roman army, Did God care to keep their bloodline in tact, why did he not just let them intermingle with gentile people, and let the nation die off. I mean like you said, it does not matter, we are all saved the same way, and all that matters is heaven.

I know the reason why. He did not want them to die as a nation, because he made a promise to them, And he did nto want to break his promise or his love for them, as shown in Romans 11. And even in revelation. And all the OT prophesies concerning their dispersion (complete) and return. and even the fact he will PUNISH the nations who sinned against Israel and did not treat them with care when they were in their hands.

It is theirs? Who says? Last I checked everything belongs to the LORD.

God's promise to them was a savior, and God delivered.

 

[kennethcadwell]

you sure love jumping all over the place...one could say Damascus was destroyed about 2700 years ago.

They could, but they would be false because Damascus is still a city. The bible makes it clear it will no longer be a city again after being destroyed.

 

[Bookends]

who cares?

1. They do, it is theirs, it is precious to them, you want to know how precious it is to them, Read the first part of Daniel 9 and how he grieves over the land, destroyed because of him and his peoples sin.
2. God. God cares because he promised he would never forget his promise to them. He even promised when they were not in their land, And in the hands of their enemies, he would NEVER forget them, NEVER forget his promise to them, and NEVER let them die.

Now tell me, if the land and nation mean nothing to God. Why through the two gentile people who took Israel as slaves (syria and babylon) and the final and COMPLETE removal (which did not happen in the first two, for their were still people in the land, even in captivity) by the roman army, Did God care to keep their bloodline in tact, why did he not just let them intermingle with gentile people, and let the nation die off. I mean like you said, it does not matter, we are all saved the same way, and all that matters is heaven.

I know the reason why. He did not want them to die as a nation, because he made a promise to them, And he did nto want to break his promise or his love for them, as shown in Romans 11. And even in revelation. And all the OT prophesies concerning their dispersion (complete) and return. and even the fact he will PUNISH the nations who sinned against Israel and did not treat them with care when they were in their hands.

God had to keep there blood line in tact, because though them came the savior. If God didn't use a people, any group, how could we know who the real savior would be...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God had to keep there blood line in tact, because though them came the savior. If God didn't use a people, any group, how could we know who the real savior would be...

I do not need to see people if Israel to know God came from them,

this makes no sense.