Why do people not understand.. Dead means dead.

[peacefulbeliever]

Sorry you two but going from unbelief to belief is only part of repentance.

It is a change of mind to see how your sins have separated us from God, and to turn from them and not walk in them any more. You can not say you repented and changed from unbelief to belief, and still walk in those sins.
Lord Jesus makes it clear that it is about turning from our sins. In the person He is talking to in Luke the subject is about sins, and He tells the person do you thing these people are worse sinners then those people. Then He tells him no, unless he repents of his sins as well he also will perish.

No one is saying to continue to walk in sins . . . Did you not read this post?

Originally Posted by peacefulbeliever

Obedience is important in a believer's walk - the walk comes AFTER salvation and you don't come out of the "womb" running! You start out crawling, then you begin to walk - a lot of stumbling at first - then you begin to run and as we know - even when running we can fall down . . . .

 

[kennethcadwell]

No one is saying to continue to walk in sins . . . Did you not read this post?

Yes I read the post, but once again the emphasis was on obedience coming after one is saved.

That can not be true, because repentance of sins comes before one is saved. And no it is not just a change in mind from unbelief to belief. Repentance also means you have to turn and stop walking in those sins. Only after following that command to repent are you in a saved state, so obedience comes before you are saved.

My point was that if obedience doesn't come first, then one is saved before they repent of their sins. Which that would mean that OSAS is a lie, because one can still perish from unrepented sins. Meaning you can still perish, even after being saved.

So it is either obedience first before saved, or saved then obedience and OSAS is a lie.....

 

[kennethcadwell]

Ok I admit I dont know what would be the "correct" sequence in that one, faith or repentance first, lol, but it happens kinda at the same time. At least it did happen at the same time to me... I repented of my unbelief...so yeah it was simultaneous... what matters more to me is that it did happen though.

I guess there was a small confusion of terms.
I talked about obedience, and Kenneth seems to talk about the very repentance when one is saved.

One of the main confusion's is that people want to narrow repentance down to changing from unbelief to belief.
That is not what the full definition of repentance is.

[h=2][SUP]1[/SUP]re·pent[/h] verb \ri-ˈpent\: to feel or show that you are sorry for something bad or wrong that you did and that you want to do what is right










[h=2]Full Definition of REPENT[/h]intransitive verb
1
: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life

2
a : to feel regret or contrition
b : to change one's mind

transitive verb
1
: to cause to feel regret or contrition

2
: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
— re·pent·er noun


Here I gave you the full definition to repent. You have to turn from your sins and dedicate yourself to the Lord, obedience.
Your obedience to the Lord comes when you repent, then you become in a saved state.

 

[SoulWeaver]

One of the main confusion's is that people want to narrow repentance down to changing from unbelief to belief.
That is not what the full definition of repentance is.

[SUP]1[/SUP]re·pent

verb \ri-ˈpent\: to feel or show that you are sorry for something bad or wrong that you did and that you want to do what is right


Full Definition of REPENT

intransitive verb
1
: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life

2
a : to feel regret or contrition
b : to change one's mind

transitive verb
1
: to cause to feel regret or contrition

2
: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
— re·pent·er noun

Here I gave you the full definition to repent. You have to turn from your sins and dedicate yourself to the Lord, obedience.
Your obedience to the Lord comes when you repent, then you become in a saved state.

That came together with my repenting from unbelief, finally understanding how much Jesus suffered because of my sins and what was done for me. I thought that went without saying.................

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you are saved before you repent ?

Jesus says no, you will still perish, so if you can still perish before obeying the command to repent of sins then you can not be saved yet. Either that or this blows OSAS way out the window, because then it would show that one can fall away and perish after being saved.

No one was saved before they repented. Because no one has FAITH UNTIL THEY REPENT.

I showed you exactly where he said that, and no I am not misreading him.
We were not talking about being obedient to the word after being saved, we were talking about rather obedience is needed for one to be saved, or keep one saved. He said it is not needed for either.
Problem is obeying the command to repent does refute that.

This is what he said.
Kenneth here is where u miss the boat....NO ONE has said that we are not to be OBEDIENT to the word...the contention is, does OUR OBEDIENCE bring and to KEEP salvation...the answer is NO

FAITH into who Jesus is and what he has done BRINGS ETERNAL LIFE, SALVATION, JUSTIFICATION to the believer and is based upon the FAITH OF JESUS which is why it is eternal.

A saved child of GOD will walk according to the word of God and be faithful, sometimes they fail, sometimes they sin, sometimes the slip..doesn't change the fact of eternal life in JESUS!

At not time in this post did he state that obedience is not needed after salvation. You are a liar and have born false witness against him, And I have witnessed it. You have broken the law "thou shalt not bear false witness" are you going to repent? Because according to you, you just lost your salvation.

 

[kennethcadwell]

That came together with my repenting from unbelief, finally understanding how much Jesus suffered because of my sins and what was done for me. I thought that went without saying.................

Yes I understand that, but you see all that came before you were saved. You were not saved tell all that was done through that repentance. Only after feeling that conviction and turning from your sin, and dedicating your life to the Lord through repentance did you become in a saved state.
The obedience to follow that command of repentance through your faith in the Lord, after hearing His word did you become saved. I will not break it down to all the justification and such, just simply put it like this; Faith, obedience, saved.....

 

[kennethcadwell]

No one was saved before they repented. Because no one has FAITH UNTIL THEY REPENT.



This is what he said.
Kenneth here is where u miss the boat....NO ONE has said that we are not to be OBEDIENT to the word...the contention is, does OUR OBEDIENCE bring and to KEEP salvation...the answer is NO

FAITH into who Jesus is and what he has done BRINGS ETERNAL LIFE, SALVATION, JUSTIFICATION to the believer and is based upon the FAITH OF JESUS which is why it is eternal.

A saved child of GOD will walk according to the word of God and be faithful, sometimes they fail, sometimes they sin, sometimes the slip..doesn't change the fact of eternal life in JESUS!

At not time in this post did he state that obedience is not needed after salvation. You are a liar and have born false witness against him, And I have witnessed it. You have broken the law "thou shalt not bear false witness" are you going to repent? Because according to you, you just lost your salvation.

What does obedience does not bring or keep salvation mean to you ?

To me if somebody says obedience does not bring salvation, that is the same as does not lead to salvation, or needed for salvation.

Repentance comes before faith, that is not right.
Faith comes from hearing the word, and only having hearing the word do you know you need to repent. Then after repentance do you become in a saved state. How does one even know they have to repent before hearing the word of God ? They can't.....

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry you two but going from unbelief to belief is only part of repentance.

No, it is all of repentance it is what the word means, stop trying to make a religious term from an ever day used word (in the time of Christ) we do not use religion to interpret words, we interpret it how a person who it was written to would have interpreted it.

The catholic church changed the meaning, and you fell for it hook line and sinker

It is a change of mind to see how your sins have separated us from God,

Yes

and to turn from them and not walk in them any more.

I can not do this until I am born of God first. if I could be saved by turning from my sin, and actually do it. then Christ died in vein, he did not have to do, I could save myself.

You can not say you repented and changed from unbelief to belief, and still walk in those sins.

your misguided. I can not say I have FAITH in God, and continue to walk in sin, for I am a liar and have no faith at all. I have not repented, because I did not admit my sin was evil, and it is what separated me from God, I still believe as I have always believed, no faith. no salvation.

Lord Jesus makes it clear that it is about turning from our sins. In the person He is talking to in Luke the subject is about sins, and He tells the person do you thing these people are worse sinners then those people. Then He tells him no, unless he repents of his sins as well he also will perish.

Lord jesus make Ken understand he CANT TURN from sin until he is BORN OF YOUR SPIRIT, Then help him understand no matter how good he thinks he is, no matter how many commands he obeys, He is still a sinner in your eyes, because he has not 24/7 375 days a year always had the love of you or others. that every time, for any reason, he does anything which is self motivated 9which we all do) it is sin, and according to the law. without your blood will condemn him to an eternity apart from you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok I admit I dont know what would be the "correct" sequence in that one, faith or repentance first, lol, but it happens kinda at the same time. At least it did happen at the same time to me... I repented of my unbelief...so yeah it was simultaneous... what matters more to me is that it did happen though.

I guess there was a small confusion of terms.
I talked about obedience, and Kenneth seems to talk about the very repentance when one is saved.

I understand sis, I am just saying, whether it happens at the same time, or it happens sime time before, You can have no faith until you repent. It is impossible for you to have faith until you completely trust God in all things concerning your salvation.

 

[SoulWeaver]

just simply put it like this; Faith, obedience, saved.....

I do agree with that

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do not walk as I walked, I walk with God now. It is very ugly to pronounce judgments of this kind.

Reminds me of what Christ said,

do not be like the pharisee, And pumping your chest, saying thank God I am not like the sinner, But be like the sinner, who got on his knees, unable to even look up to God in shame and defeat, and beg for Gods mercy and forgiveness.

They are quick to judge us as loving sin, Yet they are blind ot the fact they puff themselves up as better than we are, and thank God they are not like us in doing so.

If Only ken would see this, I think he might get it.

 

[kennethcadwell]

No, it is all of repentance it is what the word means, stop trying to make a religious term from an ever day used word (in the time of Christ) we do not use religion to interpret words, we interpret it how a person who it was written to would have interpreted it.

The catholic church changed the meaning, and you fell for it hook line and sinker



Yes



I can not do this until I am born of God first. if I could be saved by turning from my sin, and actually do it. then Christ died in vein, he did not have to do, I could save myself.



your misguided. I can not say I have FAITH in God, and continue to walk in sin, for I am a liar and have no faith at all. I have not repented, because I did not admit my sin was evil, and it is what separated me from God, I still believe as I have always believed, no faith. no salvation.


Lord jesus make Ken understand he CANT TURN from sin until he is BORN OF YOUR SPIRIT, Then help him understand no matter how good he thinks he is, no matter how many commands he obeys, He is still a sinner in your eyes, because he has not 24/7 375 days a year always had the love of you or others. that every time, for any reason, he does anything which is self motivated 9which we all do) it is sin, and according to the law. without your blood will condemn him to an eternity apart from you. [/QUOTE


Read post 443 I gave the definition for repentance, and yes it is how the bible uses the word.
I will give you part of it;

1
: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life

 

[kennethcadwell]

I understand sis, I am just saying, whether it happens at the same time, or it happens sime time before, You can have no faith until you repent. It is impossible for you to have faith until you completely trust God in all things concerning your salvation.

Read post 447, faith comes before repentance, not after....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

One of the main confusion's is that people want to narrow repentance down to changing from unbelief to belief.
That is not what the full definition of repentance is.

[SUP]1[/SUP]re·pent

verb \ri-ˈpent\: to feel or show that you are sorry for something bad or wrong that you did and that you want to do what is right










Full Definition of REPENT

intransitive verb
1
: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life

2
a : to feel regret or contrition
b : to change one's mind

transitive verb
1
: to cause to feel regret or contrition

2
: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
— re·pent·er noun


Here I gave you the full definition to repent. You have to turn from your sins and dedicate yourself to the Lord, obedience.
Your obedience to the Lord comes when you repent, then you become in a saved state.

We do not get our defenition of bible words from an english dictionary, Not only do words in english not mean today what they did in the 1600 when the bible was first translated. But most likely they do not mean what the origional greek word meant.
The greek word means to turn around and change directions.

Our mind is going one direction, It is self motivated, an enemy of God, a hater of God, and a lover of self.

to turn around and go another direction, We need to agree with God that we are an enemy of God, We are a hater of God, And we are a lover of self. And stop being self motivated, and receive Gods gift. in faith

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes I understand that, but you see all that came before you were saved. You were not saved tell all that was done through that repentance. Only after feeling that conviction and turning from your sin, and dedicating your life to the Lord through repentance did you become in a saved state.

How could she turn from her sin when she was dead in sin, and could not have the ability or power of God to turn from her sin.

You want her and us to do something of our own power we can not do. Your want us to puff ourselves up, and not give it all to God to CHANGE US.

The obedience to follow that command of repentance through your faith in the Lord, after hearing His word did you become saved. I will not break it down to all the justification and such, just simply put it like this; Faith, obedience, saved.....

Justification is by faith, Until we are justified, we are dead in trespasses and sin, Guilty, Justly condemned.

it is our justification which saves us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What does obedience does not bring or keep salvation mean to you ?

It means I am not obedient of my own power. And I am not saved by the law (which is where obedience comes from) But God loves me, and will complete the good work he started in me the moment I believe, to perfect me.

It also means I understand the just requirement of the law. I can be obedient all I want and will try, but i will never be obedient at the point God requires, which is perfection.

There is a huge difference in saying obedience can not save me, and I do not have to be obedient. they are not even in the same hemisphere.

One says the law does not apply to me
The other says I can not fulfill the law. no matter how obedient I am. this the law would still condemn me, unless I am IN CHRIST.

To me if somebody says obedience does not bring salvation, that is the same as does not lead to salvation, or needed for salvation.

And you would be right, Because we can not be obedient to save ourself. Do you not understand, that to be obedient to save yourself. you have to fulfill the law? Have you done that? If not, you have not been obedient to the point of salvation.

Repentance comes before faith, that is not right.

Your wrong, you can not have faith when you are still self focused, and stil reject God. One must repent before they can have faith.

Faith comes from hearing the word, and only having hearing the word do you know you need to repent. Then after repentance do you become in a saved state. How does one even know they have to repent before hearing the word of God ? They can't.....

Your right, they can not repent or have faith if they have not heard the word. your point?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Read post 447, faith comes before repentance, not after....

I do not have to read any post.

You can not have faith in unbelief, and if you are in unbelief, you have not yet repented.

One who has complete faith in Christ and what he says HAS REPENTED.

those are the facts,

 

[kennethcadwell]

We do not get our defenition of bible words from an english dictionary, Not only do words in english not mean today what they did in the 1600 when the bible was first translated. But most likely they do not mean what the origional greek word meant.
The greek word means to turn around and change directions.

Our mind is going one direction, It is self motivated, an enemy of God, a hater of God, and a lover of self.

to turn around and go another direction, We need to agree with God that we are an enemy of God, We are a hater of God, And we are a lover of self. And stop being self motivated, and receive Gods gift. in faith

Well here is the Greek lexicon definition, and the bold part that I have highlighted states the same thing to turn from your sins. Abhor means to have hatred, or disgust in them and stop doing them.

1. 
   [*=left]to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
   
   [*=left]to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well here is the Greek lexicon definition, and the bold part that I have highlighted states the same thing to turn from your sins. Abhor means to have hatred, or disgust in them and stop doing them.

1. 
   [*=left]to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
   [*=left]to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

lol. So, DO you think a person who has true faith in Christ, and has found the knowledge that their sin has caused their spiritual death, would LOVE PAST SINS?

come on dude, get real..

If you do not abhore what it is that killed you in the first place. You have not trusted God, in all that he says. thus you have never had faith.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I do not have to read any post.

You can not have faith in unbelief, and if you are in unbelief, you have not yet repented.

One who has complete faith in Christ and what he says HAS REPENTED.

those are the facts,

Faith comes by hearing the word, and through hearing the word your faith and trust in what was said by Lord leads you to repent of your sins, then your life is given over and dedicated to the Lord and you are in a saved state.