Why do people not understand.. Dead means dead.

[kennethcadwell]

you will have to forgive me, But to say in the millinium their is a priest line, and sacrifice again, And saying they are saved different than we are. How else would I take it? What need is their of sacrifice and burnt offering, if the one they lead to (CHRIST) has already come and gone, and FULFILLED THE LAW? And what does that have to do with them being saved by faith> Just like we are.

If you want people to understand you, say what it is your tryint to say. You said that in reply to people are held to a different standard in that day than we are. So ANYONE would ASSUME you meant they are saved by those things.

I would agree with you on this, and use to be against anybody that said what to me seemed to be foolishness.
Then when I actually looked into it I found multiple prophetic scriptures of the millennial temple that show a priesthood line again and sacrifices going on again during this time.
I posted those scriptures in the Ezekiel temple thread just the other day, and I will have to go back and get them again if you would like me to post them for you to see.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Well you know that John 3:16 teaches the following..For God so loved the (cosmos) that he gave his only begotten son that WHOSEVER BELIEVETH in him while doing many wonderful works, speaks in tongues, is immersed, is a member of hickory stick church, slain in the spirit, completes the 7 sacraments, back flips down the isle, prays to Mary and attends 57 potlucks while taking the Lord's supper 97 times shall not perish, but is having everlasting life.

NOT!

Did Jesus also say that those who believe in Him are those who hear and do what He says ?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Yes I do see how it all works in one motion, but just like motion when it comes to faith it is the action of moving forward.
You can not however repent of sins before you hear, and you can not repent tell you understand by the word the enmity your sins has caused.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Who are the ones who confess Him to be their Lord, and believe in their heart that he was raised from the dead. Those are exactly who Jesus said they are;

Luke 6:47
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them,....

His audience in Matthew 10 and Matthew 24 is His Apostles, and what He tells them there and all the rest He told them in the gospel books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John was for all of us to keep and obey.

Matthew 28:16-20

The Great Commission

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Geez . . . Nevermind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did Jesus also say that those who believe in Him are those who hear and do what He says ?

Hmm..

So those who believe in him do what he says,

meaning those who does not believe in him will not.

Is this not what we have been saying all along?

If you have faith YOU WILL WORK.

If you do not have faith YOU WILL NOT WORK.

John 3:18 [Full Chapter]
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

see the problem here? Those who trust God are not condemned, Those who do not believe in God are condemned already.

Nothing about works here, Works just prove who is condemned and who is not, Except we can not even use this, because many people do works and are still condemned. So it must be the fact, that they do not believe which condems them.

Oh wait, that is just what Jesus says, imagine that!

 

[elf3]

I never said that at all. I don't know where you get that from.
You have to hear the word before you can even believe. Once you believe what you heard, you are already doing spiritual work and that is trusting in the word of God. Then you do the next spiritual work of repenting of you sins. If one dies before being able to do anything else they will be saved, because they were already heading down that road and the Lord will know their heart belongs to Him.

This however does not excuse those who have the chance to follow the rest of the commands to not do them.

Wrong again, and it is your misunderstanding of what I said.

What I said and I will bold this and enlarge it to make it clear.......

If you have faith in the Lord, and repent of your sins then spiritual working is already at hand in your life !!!


Just because their life was cut short for some reason before they had a chance to be baptized, help others, or produce fruit does not mean the spiritual working has not already taken effect in their life. Once again, once you have heard the word and trusted what you heard, then through faith and love brought on by the godly sorrow you feel will lead you into spiritual works. That first spiritual work is repenting of your sins.

For we walk in the spirit, and not of the flesh.
The works of the spirit, is faith, love, repentance, confession, baptism, and forgiveness. If you are walking down this road the Lord will know your heart, so if your life gets taken before you can do all the previously named. The Lord knowing your heart will have mercy on you and you will be saved.

Now if you do the works of flesh this is evident to;

[h=1]Galatians 5:19-21[/h]19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The bold you added is nice but you didn't bold your last sentence "this however..." By saying "this however" you are saying that those who have the chance to do good works must do good works to be saved.

Can you see where the double talk is?

 

[kennethcadwell]

The bold you added is nice but you didn't bold your last sentence "this however..." By saying "this however" you are saying that those who have the chance to do good works must do good works to be saved.

Can you see where the double talk is?

This is not double talk because let me pose it to you in a question.

If you live long enough to be baptized, confess Him before others, forgive others, help others in need, and produce good fruit but continue to not do these things. Are you not denying to follow Jesus commands ???

The second part to the question would be, if you deny to do Jesus commands are you in turn denying Him ???

 

[ChristIsGod]

Post #595 - Actually, DC, John 3:16 "believeth" again is a present active participle which would actually be - continuously faith-ing which the KJV translates as continuously believing ... same thing ... but that would include James 2 and 3/4ths of the rest of that Book filled with dos and don'ts and what we'll be judged by in the End.

Why does the word say, "Even the devil believes and trembles" - if believing alone is all He's ever required?

I see folks pouring out these Scriptures by the boat load but you all think you can sink those Scriptures by your small boats of a few verses, if any. This is how this will go until He returns and the judgment is done. Believe that.
There's another spirit at work here and it's the wisdom from below that can be more wise than the children of light's, Brothers. There's a craft, skill, sort of military scrambling going on and sometimes it's best to just leave others in the Hand of their Maker and realize that we're not fighting flesh and blood when HIS OWN WORDS are being REJECTED, thus .... well - Only The Word of GOD made flesh will have to end this rejection Himself and by the looks of it - it probably won't be until That Day.

Blessed Peace!

 

[SarahM777]

Post #595 - Actually, DC, John 3:16 "believeth" again is a present active participle which would actually be - continuously faith-ing which the KJV translates as continuously believing ... same thing ... but that would include James 2 and 3/4ths of the rest of that Book filled with dos and don'ts and what we'll be judged by in the End.

Why does the word say, "Even the devil believes and trembles" - if believing alone is all He's ever required?

I see folks pouring out these Scriptures by the boat load but you all think you can sink those Scriptures by your small boats of a few verses, if any. This is how this will go until He returns and the judgment is done. Believe that.
There's another spirit at work here and it's the wisdom from below that can be more wise than the children of light's, Brothers. There's a craft, skill, sort of military scrambling going on and sometimes it's best to just leave others in the Hand of their Maker and realize that we're not fighting flesh and blood when HIS OWN WORDS are being REJECTED, thus .... well - Only The Word of GOD made flesh will have to end this rejection Himself and by the looks of it - it probably won't be until That Day.

Blessed Peace!

And never mind that John 3:16 is ONLY PART of the passage which says this

John 3

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. [SUP]19 [/SUP]This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

 

[newbirth]

This is not double talk because let me pose it to you in a question.

If you live long enough to be baptized, confess Him before others, forgive others, help others in need, and produce good fruit but continue to not do these things. Are you not denying to follow Jesus commands ???

The second part to the question would be, if you deny to do Jesus commands are you in turn denying Him ???

it is amazing how people make it look as though someone is hearing about Christ for the first time...I don't know about you guys but I grew up hearing bible stories.....I remember laughing at people who spoke of salvation....I knew in my heart that God was speaking to me...but I chose to go my own way....then I finally decided to submit to God.....if I had died before I made that decision ...was it God's fault that I ended up in hell?.....When you look at the urgency men were moving with concerning believing ,repenting and baptism in the early Church....it is a fer cry from what we see today...men were asking ...what must I do to be saved?.....what shall we do?....what hinders me from being baptised?.....today men are saying ...everything is just fine....say the sinners prayer...as soon as you believe you are saved....only believe it is faith alone...baptism is a work....i you obey to be saved it is sin....and they say they believe in God...what God....????in vain do they worship him teaching for doctrine the commandments of men...

 

[kennethcadwell]

And never mind that John 3:16 is ONLY PART of the passage which says this

John 3

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. [SUP]19 [/SUP]This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. [SUP]20[/SUP]Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

That right there that I enlarged seems to be the part that others want to forget or cancel out.
To live by the truth, meaning your actions show that you live by the truth. Which means you keep and obey the Lords commandments.

This is what the Lord says about what believing in Him means;

Luke 6:47
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them,

 

[kennethcadwell]

it is amazing how people make it look as though someone is hearing about Christ for the first time...I don't know about you guys but I grew up hearing bible stories.....I remember laughing at people who spoke of salvation....I knew in my heart that God was speaking to me...but I chose to go my own way....then I finally decided to submit to God.....if I had died before I made that decision ...was it God's fault that I ended up in hell?.....When you look at the urgency men were moving with concerning believing ,repenting and baptism in the early Church....it is a fer cry from what we see today...men were asking ...what must I do to be saved?.....what shall we do?....what hinders me from being baptised?.....today men are saying ...everything is just fine....say the sinners prayer...as soon as you believe you are saved....only believe it is faith alone...baptism is a work....i you obey to be saved it is sin....and they say they believe in God...what God....????in vain do they worship him teaching for doctrine the commandments of men...

I was the same way growing up in and out of a baptist church, but never fully committed to God.
I was very weak in the faith and my salvation was still in jeopardy because I was a kid who cared more about having fun and doing my own thing then devoting my life to Christ. I thought church was boring, to much doom and gloom, or never were given enough information to sink in and realize the importance of my salvation. It was watered down to what people are still doing today, and making it a broad and easy path of believe only.
When I turned 28 I started going to a Catholic church, and this I have to say is what started my interest in studying the scriptures do to the RCIA classes I was in. I was given more history then scripture study though, and what little tid bits I did got just caused me to start questioning things they did.
My full all out pull to start studying in depth the scriptures was when I turned 33, from there I have absorbed every bit of information I could get from the bible, biblical teachers, and references to get the context and meaning in scriptures.

In this studying is where I learned the importance of obedience, and how watered down the gospel has really become in some churches from the 80's to now.

 

[elf3]

This is not double talk because let me pose it to you in a question.

If you live long enough to be baptized, confess Him before others, forgive others, help others in need, and produce good fruit but continue to not do these things. Are you not denying to follow Jesus commands ???

The second part to the question would be, if you deny to do Jesus commands are you in turn denying Him ???

It sure is double talk because you say one person can be saved by faith but others must be saved by faith and works.

You cannot say to a dying person just have faith in Jesus
and you will be saved. Then turn to another person on the room you can be saved by faith but because your not dying yet you also have to do good works.

Bottom line is the faith saves not the works.

Now understand that I truly believe a true saving faith will PRODUCE good works. But it's the faith, not anything we do that saves us. And since you brought it up...baptism by water won't save us either.

What you are doing is taking the blood of Christ and adding your good works to it. You feel that Jesus blood wasn't enough so you must add to it. Also by doing this you now make the Bible a legal document instead of the Word of God.

Who was the most opposed people to this new covenant? The legalists..the pharasies and saducies. They wanted to keep the law. They wanted the law so they could look good to all the other Jews.

BOOM! All the sudden gentiles could be saved also? Well they didn't like that because the law was given to them. Now all the sudden they think the rules have changed. The rules never changed as even in the OT it was faith in God that saved Israel. They thought that the law would save them. Well its the same now...never changed. Abraham justified by faith and so are we. Our good works spring from that faith.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Now understand that I truly believe a true saving faith will PRODUCE good works. But it's the faith, not anything we do that saves us. And since you brought it up...baptism by water won't save us either.

Not one single verse says any one thing will save you, yet you cling to the one thing "faith", baptism alone also will not save you, but it is commanded to be saved :

Mark 16:16 (NKJV) He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

you faith only people cannot throw out this verse, and don't come back with the second half the verse does not say if your not baptized your condemned, it says if you don't believe, and if you don't believe you cannot be baptized, you only get wet.

 

[elf3]

Not one single verse says any one thing will save you, yet you cling to the one thing "faith", baptism alone also will not save you, but it is commanded to be saved :

Mark 16:16 (NKJV) He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

you faith only people cannot throw out this verse, and don't come back with the second half the verse does not say if your not baptized your condemned, it says if you don't believe, and if you don't believe you cannot be baptized, you only get wet.

That's actually a nice little speech. Um....Eph 2:8-10 I believe it says some thing like by grace thru faith not by works created as God's workmanship to do good works which he has for us? (That's just a quick little thing.)

Actually if we really wanna get true to God's Word...if it wasn't for God's grace we wouldn't even be discussing the Bible. If it wasn't for Christ we wouldn't even have a chance at justification, sanctification or salvation. If it wasnt for the Holy Spirit we could never know God. So bottom line is all God all Jesus all the Holy Spirit not a darn thing we do can save us from damnation.

God's grace saves us from what's fair and what we deserve.

If you want to try and "work" your way to God go ahead but I will not stand idle as justification sanctification or salvation by works is trying to be taught.

By me and others saying it's by faith which we are saved...it's a complete surrender to God. We admit to God that we can never do anything to deserve His grace. We can never do enough to deserve justification. We can never do enough to earn salvation.

Until you realize that Jesus not only died but was raised from the dead so that you may live you will always try to justify yourself before God. Until "that old man inside you dies" you can never know the peace of God. Why do I say this? Because you will always wonder if you did enough to earn salvation.

I would venture to say that most people who don't like reformed theology is because it puts God in control and not us.

 

[kennethcadwell]

It sure is double talk because you say one person can be saved by faith but others must be saved by faith and works.

You cannot say to a dying person just have faith in Jesus
and you will be saved. Then turn to another person on the room you can be saved by faith but because your not dying yet you also have to do good works.

Bottom line is the faith saves not the works.

Now understand that I truly believe a true saving faith will PRODUCE good works. But it's the faith, not anything we do that saves us. And since you brought it up...baptism by water won't save us either.

What you are doing is taking the blood of Christ and adding your good works to it. You feel that Jesus blood wasn't enough so you must add to it. Also by doing this you now make the Bible a legal document instead of the Word of God.

Who was the most opposed people to this new covenant? The legalists..the pharasies and saducies. They wanted to keep the law. They wanted the law so they could look good to all the other Jews.

BOOM! All the sudden gentiles could be saved also? Well they didn't like that because the law was given to them. Now all the sudden they think the rules have changed. The rules never changed as even in the OT it was faith in God that saved Israel. They thought that the law would save them. Well its the same now...never changed. Abraham justified by faith and so are we. Our good works spring from that faith.

Then all I can say is you are not understanding what I am writing.
Repentance is a spiritual work, and nobody is saved tell after they repent of their sins, so everybody who has faith in the Lord is doing spiritual works of love. Rather you do the main one of repentance, then your life is cut short, or you live long enough to do all the spiritual works of love commanded by the Lord. You still are spiritually working and spirit working in you. Faith and works go hand and hand.

Faith without works is dead, and a dead faith has no salvation.

 

[elf3]

Then all I can say is you are not understanding what I am writing.
Repentance is a spiritual work, and nobody is saved tell after they repent of their sins, so everybody who has faith in the Lord is doing spiritual works of love. Rather you do the main one of repentance, then your life is cut short, or you live long enough to do all the spiritual works of love commanded by the Lord. You still are spiritually working and spirit working in you. Faith and works go hand and hand.

Faith without works is dead, and a dead faith has no salvation.

Ok then maybe you and I have a slight misunderstanding. But it still seems you are adding work to our salvation. It's God that calls us because without the Holy Spirit touching our "hearts" we would never seek after God.

But like you say once we have the love of God inside us our whole outlook changes. We now face things with the love of God instead the "human love" we think of.

But it's still the faith not the works that justify us before God. I think that is when you might be misunderstanding me also.

 

[SoulWeaver]

I was the same way growing up in and out of a baptist church, but never fully committed to God.
I was very weak in the faith and my salvation was still in jeopardy because I was a kid who cared more about having fun and doing my own thing then devoting my life to Christ. I thought church was boring, to much doom and gloom, or never were given enough information to sink in and realize the importance of my salvation. It was watered down to what people are still doing today, and making it a broad and easy path of believe only.
When I turned 28 I started going to a Catholic church, and this I have to say is what started my interest in studying the scriptures do to the RCIA classes I was in. I was given more history then scripture study though, and what little tid bits I did got just caused me to start questioning things they did.
My full all out pull to start studying in depth the scriptures was when I turned 33, from there I have absorbed every bit of information I could get from the bible, biblical teachers, and references to get the context and meaning in scriptures.

In this studying is where I learned the importance of obedience, and how watered down the gospel has really become in some churches from the 80's to now.

Thank you for sharing this. This is one of the moments when real conversation and understanding starts occuring.
I have noticed one thing:

That people who emphasise grace, including myself, went out of legalistic churches, heavily work-based, and because they were not yet saved, like you in the beginning of your post, they were unable to walk the walk without the Spirit. The heavy burdens grieved them, and they felt desperate. They were also being judged. I used to be in Eastern Orthodox church and it was around before I was really saved. Some even have these repentance lists and some border with insanity. It is a sin if you put spice in your food, or taking a bite while food is still being cooked, laughter is demonic... I'm kidding you not guys! Not even to get into Zealots, who are considered a radical sect among them.

Now when these people including myself have been born again and walk the walk, they are scared of putting the emphasis on works in order not to give glory to themselves or crawl into dead, man's works again. Because they've been there, and while they have been there they were lost so they well see this danger, and also they well know they are uncapable to do God's works without God's help that was given by grace. (At least that's where I'm coming from.) I do know I am surely supposed to walk the walk, and I want to conquer as much as I can so I have no regrets when I die, I only want to emphasise heavily on God's grace, because someone reading and missing that out of the picture will fail, like I used to fail before I was born again. One must be born again first in order to walk the walk.

Now your story is opposite, you've also been in a bad (kinda antichrist sort of) church that waters down the message of God and does not teach obedience. So you've seen the danger from that, and now you heavily emphasise obedience. You wish you have been warned earlier. I understand better now where are you coming from. Probably other people emphasising obedience have also been around lukewarm churches.

That just explains much,
I just pray God's peace over this thread. amen and period

 

[kennethcadwell]

Ok then maybe you and I have a slight misunderstanding. But it still seems you are adding work to our salvation. It's God that calls us because without the Holy Spirit touching our "hearts" we would never seek after God.

But like you say once we have the love of God inside us our whole outlook changes. We now face things with the love of God instead the "human love" we think of.

But it's still the faith not the works that justify us before God. I think that is when you might be misunderstanding me also.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you to.
The thing though is I see you keep using justification, and the thing I would tell you is that one being justified does not mean they are saved. Justification is only a part that leads to salvation through the Lord.

 

[elf3]

One main problem here on CC or any other discussion forum is the human factor. It would be so much easier to discuss over a 3 hr cup of coffee face to face lol

Where you wanna meet ken? What's a nice middle state for us lol.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Thank you for sharing this. This is one of the moments when real conversation and understanding starts occuring.
I have noticed one thing:

That people who emphasise grace, including myself, went out of legalistic churches, heavily work-based, and because they were not yet saved, like you in the beginning of your post, they were unable to walk the walk without the Spirit. The heavy burdens grieved them, and they felt desperate. They were also being judged. I used to be in Eastern Orthodox church and it was around before I was really saved. Some even have these repentance lists and some border with insanity. It is a sin if you put spice in your food, or taking a bite while food is still being cooked, laughter is demonic... I'm kidding you not guys! Not even to get into Zealots, who are considered a radical sect among them.

Now when these people including myself have been born again and walk the walk, they are scared of putting the emphasis on works in order not to give glory to themselves or crawl into dead, man's works again. Because they've been there, and while they have been there they were lost so they well see this danger, and also they well know they are uncapable to do God's works without God's help that was given by grace. (At least that's where I'm coming from.) I do know I am surely supposed to walk the walk, and I want to conquer as much as I can so I have no regrets when I die, I only want to emphasise heavily on God's grace, because someone reading and missing that out of the picture will fail, like I used to fail before I was born again. One must be born again first in order to walk the walk.

Now your story is opposite, you've also been in a bad (kinda antichrist sort of) church that waters down the message of God and does not teach obedience. So you've seen the danger from that, and now you heavily emphasise obedience. You wish you have been warned earlier. I understand better now where are you coming from. Probably other people emphasising obedience have also been around lukewarm churches.

That just explains much,
I just pray God's peace over this thread. amen and period

Yes through my walk in the churches I have been in, I have gone from one end of the spectrum of a watered down gospel to the other end of the spectrum of an adaptation of the gospel. One took away from the word of God, and did not give the full gospel message and the words of our Lord. The other added on more stipulations to what one had to do.
I through studying the word in depth got fed up with both of them and became non-denominational. It was the only way I could see at the time from all denominations available to make sure everything that was taught was 100% biblical, and not tainted by mans philosophies, traditions, and personal morals. All we do in non-denominational church is teach directly from the scriptures, and discuss each others opinions of what it said and then how it is to be applied to our lives individually.
Because it is true that we are to follow all that Jesus said, but there is a time that me, you, and another could read the same scripture but how it is to be applied in our life at that time could be different. This is how we look at scripture, the word is living because it is the words from the Lord our God and He is living, so His words must live in us.

Which is also why I say that God's moral laws are not to be looked at as laws, but as an everyday way of life for us.

God bless to you