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I do not see why the woman wasn't stoned by Jesus if capital punishment was allowed by Moses' law (which it was sanctioned and even demanded to some extant by).
There are governments that either outlaw Christianity or have laws that are unChristian--would following those governments 'the Lord put in place' and giving up Christianity or Christian principles thus be sanctioned? Obviously not...if a government tells or makes laws that are unChristian than you cannot follow those laws.
I tried to show in bringing up Daniel (perhaps Jesus is a clearer example) that governments do punish people for disobeying its commands, though its commands are unChristian--Jesus was condemned in the end (legally) for being a King and opposing Ceaser. Thus governments obviously do hold the power of the sword, that is to kill people.
I brought up Jesus and Judas, because it is nearly the same with the early church and Saul...Judas didn't physically draw in the nails--so you could say he wasn't guilty of Jesus' blood; if you say that Saul wasn't guilty because he didn't stone Stephen or those who followed "the way" he sought to bring to death through betraying God's true people though he claimed to be part of God's true people.
I NEVER said hell or judgment was a joke...those are your own words...We all will face judgment in the end; to some extant while we live we face God's judgments constantly. Hell most importantly is separation from God, and this is the greatest pain anyone can experience because we were made in his image--I do not know about its dimensions though...
I agreed that all sin is a capital offence...but if you truly believe that I do not see why you are prescribing the death sentence to someone else's physical body and not first to your own...
I do not see where capitol punishment is God's idea, except when He does it (as in Acts with the married couple that didn't bring forth everything and said they had: I do not know why you haven't insisted on those versus more but it was the church to some extant there).
"Capital punishment is God's idea"=the cross of Christ? I think you need chapter and verse number there for me to believe you...if you quote the Old Testament you have to remember that Jesus didn't stone the one that was condemned to stoning under Mosaic law...and unless you are sinless I would not suggest flinging the stone...(I know I am repeating myself)
You also have selective posts, you don't answer any of my questions I have posted in the past like
If they are guilty then are you (or those who pronounce it) not sinning the person to hell?
If they are innocent, have you not just reserved the death penalty for yourself for killing an innocent man (or upon the government if you think its just the governments responsibility and not you who support the death penalty)?
Where is there forgiveness in the death penalty? Do you not think it God's mercy that those who were being persecuted to the death sentence by Paul's working (even if He didn't actually stone a single Christian) forgave him and accepted him as a Christian and that he didn't get death by their community though he worked to cause members of it to be stoned?
Have you seen Lord of the Rings or read the books (its more poignant in the books) how Smeagal, though He was evil and possibly deserved death (He did kill his brother), is the one that actually to some extant saves Frodo from becoming like him...just as an example of how God can use or turn even evil people to his glory, without having to kill them?
Do you think killing an evil man is justice for an evil man killing an innocent person? I would say not in the least. So, how is it justice for a death for a death or anything else, when on one side there may just be an evil person? It sounds like a rotten tooth for a tooth to me...and though you don't think the church should allow it, you suggest the government shall...but you forget that Paul also says that those who have a dispute should come to the church and not to the unbelievers--he means the government...
And he says something that might make you cringe--WHY NOT PREFER TO BE WRONGED? That is why not count whatever loss you get as forgiven for Christ's sake then to bring allegations to unbelieving governments to deal with howsoever they see fit, or cause disruption in the church?
I do not know if you'll ever understand what I am saying, but do not just reject it--pray about it; as I will yours and don't just flash back reasons that governments should kill people...but if the LORD gives you a list of things that governments should kill people for, sure post them...and I will pray over them.
Sorry if I must disagree with you but I know that truly if we all deserve to be killed because we crucified the LORD and not just anyone, I think all murders should be thought of as small compared to this monstrosity we all deserve death for...
tony
ps. Wouldn't you rather a sinner you loved, say your brother, sister, mother or father, to have as much time to repent from their sin as possible before their death? Rather than chancing that perhaps they just did something horrible and deserve death (in the Bible thats what the Jews thought Jesus deserved, of subject here though) that their souls might need time to come to peace and salvation?
There are governments that either outlaw Christianity or have laws that are unChristian--would following those governments 'the Lord put in place' and giving up Christianity or Christian principles thus be sanctioned? Obviously not...if a government tells or makes laws that are unChristian than you cannot follow those laws.
I tried to show in bringing up Daniel (perhaps Jesus is a clearer example) that governments do punish people for disobeying its commands, though its commands are unChristian--Jesus was condemned in the end (legally) for being a King and opposing Ceaser. Thus governments obviously do hold the power of the sword, that is to kill people.
I brought up Jesus and Judas, because it is nearly the same with the early church and Saul...Judas didn't physically draw in the nails--so you could say he wasn't guilty of Jesus' blood; if you say that Saul wasn't guilty because he didn't stone Stephen or those who followed "the way" he sought to bring to death through betraying God's true people though he claimed to be part of God's true people.
I NEVER said hell or judgment was a joke...those are your own words...We all will face judgment in the end; to some extant while we live we face God's judgments constantly. Hell most importantly is separation from God, and this is the greatest pain anyone can experience because we were made in his image--I do not know about its dimensions though...
I agreed that all sin is a capital offence...but if you truly believe that I do not see why you are prescribing the death sentence to someone else's physical body and not first to your own...
I do not see where capitol punishment is God's idea, except when He does it (as in Acts with the married couple that didn't bring forth everything and said they had: I do not know why you haven't insisted on those versus more but it was the church to some extant there).
"Capital punishment is God's idea"=the cross of Christ? I think you need chapter and verse number there for me to believe you...if you quote the Old Testament you have to remember that Jesus didn't stone the one that was condemned to stoning under Mosaic law...and unless you are sinless I would not suggest flinging the stone...(I know I am repeating myself)
You also have selective posts, you don't answer any of my questions I have posted in the past like
If they are guilty then are you (or those who pronounce it) not sinning the person to hell?
If they are innocent, have you not just reserved the death penalty for yourself for killing an innocent man (or upon the government if you think its just the governments responsibility and not you who support the death penalty)?
Where is there forgiveness in the death penalty? Do you not think it God's mercy that those who were being persecuted to the death sentence by Paul's working (even if He didn't actually stone a single Christian) forgave him and accepted him as a Christian and that he didn't get death by their community though he worked to cause members of it to be stoned?
Have you seen Lord of the Rings or read the books (its more poignant in the books) how Smeagal, though He was evil and possibly deserved death (He did kill his brother), is the one that actually to some extant saves Frodo from becoming like him...just as an example of how God can use or turn even evil people to his glory, without having to kill them?
Do you think killing an evil man is justice for an evil man killing an innocent person? I would say not in the least. So, how is it justice for a death for a death or anything else, when on one side there may just be an evil person? It sounds like a rotten tooth for a tooth to me...and though you don't think the church should allow it, you suggest the government shall...but you forget that Paul also says that those who have a dispute should come to the church and not to the unbelievers--he means the government...
And he says something that might make you cringe--WHY NOT PREFER TO BE WRONGED? That is why not count whatever loss you get as forgiven for Christ's sake then to bring allegations to unbelieving governments to deal with howsoever they see fit, or cause disruption in the church?
I do not know if you'll ever understand what I am saying, but do not just reject it--pray about it; as I will yours and don't just flash back reasons that governments should kill people...but if the LORD gives you a list of things that governments should kill people for, sure post them...and I will pray over them.
Sorry if I must disagree with you but I know that truly if we all deserve to be killed because we crucified the LORD and not just anyone, I think all murders should be thought of as small compared to this monstrosity we all deserve death for...
tony
ps. Wouldn't you rather a sinner you loved, say your brother, sister, mother or father, to have as much time to repent from their sin as possible before their death? Rather than chancing that perhaps they just did something horrible and deserve death (in the Bible thats what the Jews thought Jesus deserved, of subject here though) that their souls might need time to come to peace and salvation?
