Do you agree with the doctrine that says JESUS died spiritually?

[Jason0047]

I've already explained that but you're not reading my posts so I guess you missed it. Define what you mean by God.

I had an idea that you didn't believe Jesus is God Almighty who is eternal. Hence, why I asked the question. I wanted you to re-state that fact and or clarify it briefly in one or two sentences. See, if I believe Jesus is God Almighty in the flesh, I am not going to be afraid to declare that fact again to someone and shout it from the rooftops because that is what the Bible teaches. Truth should not be something you should be ashamed of if what you teach is true. Again, Micah 5:2 says the Messiah is from everlasting. OT Scripture says there is no Savior beside Him and there is no God beside Him; And then Scripture says that God exists from everlasting to everlasting.

 

[Jason0047]

As for who God is:

Well, God is love
(Who had shown his love towards us when we were yet sinners, Christ (God) died for us).

1. God is Omni-Temporal (Eternal).

2. God is Omniscient (All knowing).

3. God is Omnipotent
(Sovereign and all powerful; Doctrine of Immanence is implied in this).

4. God is Omni-Righteous
(God is love. He is always loving, Good, Morally upright always; Even in His anger He loves).

5. God is Omni-Present
(Capable of Being Present in all locations).

6. God is Self Sufficient
(Aseity; Eternally: God does not need anything or anyone to survive or to be happy or complete).

7. God is Immutable
(Unchanging; God's Spirit in essence and being will never change, nor will His good character).

8. God is Holy
(God is Holy and divine; This means He is perfect, pure, without spot, blameless, and sacred).

9. God is Spirit
(Transcendent and beyond the physical universe).

10. God is Triune
(The Lord our God is one God who exists eternally as three persons: The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost).

11. God is Light
(God can put forth Light from His being).

12. God is Infinite
(As in relation to essence of His divine being or Spirit: God is not subject to physical limitations (like man)). (For with God, nothing is impossible).

 

[Butch5]

I had an idea that you didn't believe Jesus is God Almighty who is eternal. Hence, why I asked the question. I wanted you to re-state that fact and or clarify it briefly in one or two sentences. See, if I believe Jesus is God Almighty in the flesh, I am not going to be afraid to declare that fact again to someone and shout it from the rooftops because that is what the Bible teaches. Truth should not be something you should be ashamed of if what you teach is true. Again, Micah 5:2 says the Messiah is from everlasting. OT Scripture says there is no Savior beside Him and there is no God beside Him; And then Scripture says that God exists from everlasting to everlasting.

Jason,

Please define your terms. I find many times Christians will move the goal posts in these discussions. When you say God Almighty, what do you mean?

I've already stated that Jesus is Deity just as the Father is. I'm not ashamed to admit what I believe. As a matter of fact I've spent quite a bit of time putting together posts explaining what I believe, posts you say you're not reading. Have you put forth what you believe and explained it? I don't think so.

If you hold the modern doctrine three being are one being then please address the short comings of the doctrine.

 

[Butch5]

As for who God is:

Well, God is love
(Who had shown his love towards us when we were yet sinners, Christ (God) died for us).

1. God is Omni-Temporal (Eternal).

2. God is Omniscient (All knowing).

3. God is Omnipotent
(Sovereign and all powerful; Doctrine of Immanence is implied in this).

4. God is Omni-Righteous
(God is love. He is always loving, Good, Morally upright always; Even in His anger He loves).

5. God is Omni-Present
(Capable of Being Present in all locations).

6. God is Self Sufficient
(Aseity; Eternally: God does not need anything or anyone to survive or to be happy or complete).

7. God is Immutable
(Unchanging; God's Spirit in essence and being will never change, nor will His good character).

8. God is Holy
(God is Holy and divine; This means He is perfect, pure, without spot, blameless, and sacred).

9. God is Spirit
(Transcendent and beyond the physical universe).

10. God is Triune
(The Lord our God is one God who exists eternally as three persons: The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost).

11. God is Light
(God can put forth Light from His being).

12. God is Infinite
(As in relation to essence of His divine being or Spirit: God is not subject to physical limitations (like man)). (For with God, nothing is impossible).

These are qualities of God, but it doesn't answer the question, what do you mean by God? You asked me if I believe Jesus is God and I asked you to define what you mean by God. Some of these qualities do pertain to Jesus some don't.

"1. God is Omni-Temporal (Eternal)."

Yes, He's eternal.

"

2. God is Omniscient (All knowing)."

No, He himself said that He did not know the hour of His return.

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (Mar 13:32 KJV)

"3. God is Omnipotent
(Sovereign and all powerful; Doctrine of Immanence is implied in this)."

NO, He Himself said the power came from the Father.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
(1Co 15:25-27 KJV)

"4. God is Omni-Righteous
(God is love. He is always loving, Good, Morally upright always; Even in His anger He loves)."

Yes, He is righteous.

"

5. God is Omni-Present (Capable of Being Present in all locations)"

No, Scripture says He was here and He went there. If He traveled from here to there then it's obvious He isn't everywhere.

14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. (Luk 4:14-16 KJV)

6. God is Self Sufficient
(Aseity; Eternally: God does not need anything or anyone to survive or to be happy or complete).

No, Paul said the Father alone has immorality.

13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; {confession: or, profession}
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1Ti 6:13-16 KJV)

7. God is Immutable
(Unchanging; God's Spirit in essence and being will never change, nor will His good character).

No, Scripture says He was in the form of God and emptied Himself taking on the form of a servant, that's change.

7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. (Phi 2:7 NAS)

8. God is Holy
(God is Holy and divine; This means He is perfect, pure, without spot, blameless, and sacred).

Yes He is Holy.

9. God is Spirit
(Transcendent and beyond the physical universe).

No, He Himself say a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have.

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luk 24:39 KJV)

10. God is Triune
(The Lord our God is one God who exists eternally as three persons: The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost).

No, one being is not three beings.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (Joh 14:28 KJV)

11. God is Light
(God can put forth Light from His being).

Yes, He is light

12. God is Infinite
(As in relation to essence of His divine being or Spirit: God is not subject to physical limitations (like man)). (For with God, nothing is impossible).

No, Jesus Himself said that He couldn't do some things.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (Joh 5:19 KJV)

 

[Jason0047]

Jason,

Please define your terms. I find many times Christians will move the goal posts in these discussions. When you say God Almighty, what do you mean?

I've already stated that Jesus is Deity just as the Father is. I'm not ashamed to admit what I believe. As a matter of fact I've spent quite a bit of time putting together posts explaining what I believe, posts you say you're not reading. Have you put forth what you believe and explained it? I don't think so.

If you hold the modern doctrine three being are one being then please address the short comings of the doctrine.

I am trying to understand an important point in how you view Jesus Christ. From my understanding in what you said, you seem to imply that Christ had a beginning and is not eternal (In the fact that He existed forever). Is this correct? Yes or no?

 

[Butch5]

I am trying to understand an important point in how you view Jesus Christ. From my understanding in what you said, you seem to imply that Christ had a beginning and is not eternal (In the fact that He existed forever). Is this correct? Yes or no?

As a separate entity (being) from the Father, no. Jesus said,

KJV John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (Joh 8:42 KJV)

Literally, He said that He came out of God. McDonalds Idiomatic Translation has it this way.

MIT John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your father, you would love me because I came out from God and have arrived here. Nor have I come on my own initiative, but he sent me. (Joh 8:42 MIT)

The Greek text uses "ek" which means to come out of.

BGT John 8:42 εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς· εἰ ὁ θεὸς πατὴρ ὑμῶν ἦν ἠγαπᾶτε ἂν ἐμέ, ἐγὼ γὰρ ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον καὶ ἥκω· οὐδὲ γὰρ ἀπ᾽ ἐμαυτοῦ ἐλήλυθα, ἀλλ᾽ ἐκεῖνός με ἀπέστειλεν. (Joh 8:42 BGT)

What I bolded says, "out of the God."

Scripture says that God has begotten the Son.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. {the decree: or, for a decree}
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. (Psa 2:7-8 KJV).

God has begotten the Son. Begotten means to bring forth or to bear. If Jesus existed as a separate being from the Father from all eternity, then God didn't bear or bring forth the Son. It's right there in the Scriptures, Psalm 2 states it plainly.

On a side note notice the inheritance, the ends of the Land, not Heaven.

 

[Butch5]

I forgot to post the reply to Micah 5:2. If you research the Hebrew word "Owlam" You'll find that many modern commentators wrongly translate it forever or everlasting, but that's not what the word means. It literally means, time unseen. It's an unspecified period of time. Here is a link to a site that deals with ancient Hebrew words that explains "Owlam."

Hebrew Word Meanings

 

[Jason0047]

I forgot to post the reply to Micah 5:2. If you research the Hebrew word "Owlam" You'll find that many modern commentators wrongly translate it forever or everlasting, but that's not what the word means. It literally means, time unseen. It's an unspecified period of time. Here is a link to a site that deals with ancient Hebrew words that explains "Owlam."

Hebrew Word Meanings

Anyone can define a word in the Bible. Doesn't make them right. You can find just about any verse that has a different interpretation from many commentators and or scholars. Your view has to go beyond what it says in the text plainly on Micah 5:2. I just read the Bible and believe it. While studying Hebrew (OT) and Greek (NT) can be helpful, I don't think God requires people to learn these languages. In addition, the Scriptures confirm elswhere that Jesus is from everlasting. In Hebrews 7 we learn that Melchisedec did not have a recorded genealogy which was a parallel of the Son of God who did not have a beginning of days or end of life.

Hebrews 7:1-3
"For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually."

 

[Jason0047]

In addition, before the world we have:

#1. A love between God the Father and God the Son (John 17:24).

#2. The Son sharing in a glory with God the Father (John 17:5).

 

[Jason0047]

In addition, before the world we have:

#1. A love between God the Father and God the Son (John 17:24).

#2. The Son sharing in a glory with God the Father (John 17:5).

In other words, the universe was created at the same time that the world (earth) was created. Linear Time is a concept that God would have created in the beginning with the creation. Before that, there was just eternity. God the Father and God the Son existed before the world came into being; meaning, they existed before time (as we know it). For Linear Time was no doubt created only for man's benefit and not for God's benefit.

 

[hopesprings]

I do not agree that Jesus died spiritually

in case anyone cares

lol

 

[Jason0047]

Jason,

Please define your terms. I find many times Christians will move the goal posts in these discussions. When you say God Almighty, what do you mean?

That is what I believe you are doing, my friend. You have to move the goal posts in order for your theology to work by twisting the plain straightforward meaning in Micah 5:2 on the Messiah existing from everlasting which is said in a slightly different way in other Scripture (Hebrews 7 and John 17).

God Almighty is that He all mighty and all powerful over all things - Including space, time, and matter. God is also Almighty in love, righteousness, and in person's salvation if they so choose to accept it (Based on His terms and not one's own terms).

I've already stated that Jesus is Deity just as the Father is. I'm not ashamed to admit what I believe. As a matter of fact I've spent quite a bit of time putting together posts explaining what I believe, posts you say you're not reading. Have you put forth what you believe and explained it? I don't think so.

If you hold the modern doctrine three being are one being then please address the short comings of the doctrine.

The Godhead or the Trinity is one God that exists as three distinct but connected persons known as the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost (1 John 5:7). Each person of the Godhead among their distinctiveness (and being connected together) can each have the capacity to dwell within one another. For Jesus said He was one with the Father (and or in the Father). In fact, the disciples asked to see the Father, but Jesus said that they had already seen the Father. The Godhead or the Trinity is Spirit and eternal (forever existing). In the Old Testament, God refers to Himself in the plural form, Christ makes pre-incarnate appearances in the OT under the title of what we would call today as the "Messenger of the Lord", and both the names "Son of Man" and "Son of God" appear in the OT in reference specifically to Christ (See Daniel 7 and Daniel 3).

To learn more about the Messenger of the Lord, go here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/98395-jesus-messenger-lord-old-testament.html

 

[Jason0047]

As a separate entity (being) from the Father, no. Jesus said,

KJV John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (Joh 8:42 KJV)

Literally, He said that He came out of God. McDonalds Idiomatic Translation has it this way.

MIT John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your father, you would love me because I came out from God and have arrived here. Nor have I come on my own initiative, but he sent me. (Joh 8:42 MIT)

The Greek text uses "ek" which means to come out of.

BGT John 8:42 εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς· εἰ ὁ θεὸς πατὴρ ὑμῶν ἦν ἠγαπᾶτε ἂν ἐμέ, ἐγὼ γὰρ ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον καὶ ἥκω· οὐδὲ γὰρ ἀπ᾽ ἐμαυτοῦ ἐλήλυθα, ἀλλ᾽ ἐκεῖνός με ἀπέστειλεν. (Joh 8:42 BGT)

What I bolded says, "out of the God."

Scripture says that God has begotten the Son.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. {the decree: or, for a decree}
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. (Psa 2:7-8 KJV).

God has begotten the Son. Begotten means to bring forth or to bear. If Jesus existed as a separate being from the Father from all eternity, then God didn't bear or bring forth the Son. It's right there in the Scriptures, Psalm 2 states it plainly.

On a side note notice the inheritance, the ends of the Land, not Heaven.

This is talking about the Word made flesh or the Incarnation. Christ was begotten into a physical body. 1 John 4:3 says that we are to confess that Jesus Christ came into the flesh. Meaning, we are not like Christ who came into the flesh. Jesus Christ came into the flesh because He is the Lord from Heaven. Paul says He is the Lord from Heaven. Jesus says He came down from Heaven. Jesus came down from Heaven (from where God the Father was at) and came down to Earth in the body of a man (i.e. an empty shell or temple). John 17 says Christ shared a glory with the Father before the world began.

 

[Jason0047]

These are qualities of God, but it doesn't answer the question, what do you mean by God? You asked me if I believe Jesus is God and I asked you to define what you mean by God. Some of these qualities do pertain to Jesus some don't.

The Scriptures are clear that Christ (second person of the Godhead) had always existed (Micah 5:2) (Hebrews 7:1-3) (John 17:5) (John 17:24).

Yes, He's eternal.

You can't say Christ is truly from everlasting to everlasting if you believe Christ (God) had a beginning.

No, He himself said that He did not know the hour of His return.

[/FONT] 32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (Mar 13:32 KJV)

In the Incarnation, Christ's Omniscience (i.e. divine attribute of having all knowledge) was suppressed; Philippians 2:6-9 speaks of Christ (God) in becoming like a servant and man. In Romans 5:14, we learn that Christ is a like figure (type) of Adam. Adam was once limited in knowledge in the Garden, just as Jesus Christ was limited in knowledge during His Earthly ministry. For Christ had to be like a man so as to be our substitute.

NO, He Himself said the power came from the Father.

[/FONT] 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
(1Co 15:25-27 KJV)

No. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead to life. Hebrews talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life. Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them. This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today.

Yes, He is righteous.

At least we can agree on this point.

Anyways, I hope to address your other points later.

Peace be unto you.
And may the Lord's love shine upon you.

 

[Jason0047]

No, Scripture says He was here and He went there. If He traveled from here to there then it's obvious He isn't everywhere.

14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. (Luk 4:14-16 KJV)

The physical body (the Temple or shell) of Jesus was not Omnipresent. Christ's Spirit (that is uncreated eternal and divine) was Omnipresent. Matthew 18:20, Jesus essentially says where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name there He is among them. Nathaniel had wondered how Jesus knew Him. Jesus said He seen Him under the fig tree right before Philip came to get him. Nathaniel replied that He was the Son of God because of this. Jesus did not correct Nathaniel in saying it was the Father or the Spirit helping Him. Granted, during Christ's Earthly ministry, the Father and the Spirit did works thru Jesus. But Jesus also had power of His own, too. For He said so Himself. In addition, Jesus told Nicodemus that, " no man has ascended up into Heaven but he that came down from Heaven, even the Son of Man which is in Heaven." In other words, in Jesus' last words within John 3:13, He says the Son of Man is in Heaven. This is because Jesus is one with the Father in the sense that He dwells in the Father as the Father dwells in Him.

 

[Jason0047]

No, Paul said the Father alone has immorality.

13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; {confession: or, profession}
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1Ti 6:13-16 KJV)

The verses right before verse 16 says this is talking about Jesus. The statement that says no man has seen Him dwelling in the Light is exactly what it means. It is talking about seeing God (Christ) in all His Light or glory. For the disciples asked to see the Father, and Jesus said they already seen the Father. This is because the Father dwells in the Son and vise versa. Meaning, that the disciples seen the Father just as they had seen the Son, but the disciples did not see the Father dwelling in all His glory; Nor did they see the Son dwelling in the Light in all His glory.

 

[Jason0047]

No, Scripture says He was in the form of God and emptied Himself taking on the form of a servant, that's change.

7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. (Phi 2:7 NAS)

God's Spirit in behavior, in essence and being and in having power did not change. Jesus Christ still had power as God during His Earthly ministry (of which I already mentioned). The true teaching on the Kenosis (Philippians 2:6-9) is in Christ being emptied of rank or position. Jesus did not empty his divine attributes. Christ merely had a blind fold on temporarily with His Omniscience in being suppressed during His Earthly ministry. Christ still had His Omniscience. This attribute was not eliminated. In other words, I don't become any less of who I am if I temporarily choose to where a blind fold. My eyes still would exist and function the next day when I took the blind fold off.

 

[Jason0047]

Yes He is Holy.

Glad we can agree on this point. Some folks might say Jesus is Holy, but they believe Jesus could have sinned. Which I believe is a contradiction and really wrong to suggest such a thing. Jesus is Holy and perfect and was incapable of sin.

No, He Himself say a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have.

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luk 24:39 KJV)

It should be obvious that Christ was not referring to the internal part of Himself that was God or that which was Spirit inside His body that they could not see. The disciples were afraid that it might have been a ghost or apparition. Christ was assuring them that He had the same physical body He always had during His life. This was not a denial of His deity or the true part of Himself that was Spirit inside the body.

 

[Jason0047]

No, one being is not three beings.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (Joh 14:28 KJV)

1 John 5:7 says there are THREE that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these THREE are ONE.

That's the Trinity or as the Bible calls it, the Godhead. In fact, God refers to Himself in the plural form a few times in Scripture.

As for Jesus saying the Father is greater than Him: This is in relation to the hierarchy of the Godhead. It is talking about how the different persons within the Godhead function and operate as a whole in being one God.

If you don't understand the concept of more than one person that make up one being, then just think about siamese twins (Not that God is an exact parallel of siamese twins mind you).

Yes, He is light

Jesus is the Light that shines out the darkness. Jesus is the Savior. Only God Almighty is the Light and the Savior because the OT Scriptures say that there is no Savior beside Him (i.e. God). John 1 and John 3 says Jesus is the Light. Revelation says the Lamb will be the Light thereof in the Eternal New Earth. 1 John 1:5 says God is Light. So Jesus is God.

No, Jesus Himself said that He couldn't do some things.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (Joh 5:19 KJV)

No, this is not saying Jesus can't do certain things. This is a verse that supports the Trinity because the Son thinks and moves in perfect will and harmony within the Godhead. For Jesus says He always does what pleases the Father (Hence, why the Son said He can do nothinng of Himself). This is because the Father and the Son are both a part of the Godhead. For God cannot disagree with Himself. Jesus said He and the Father are one. The Jews considered this blasphemy because Jesus was claiming to be as equal footing as God by saying that.

 

[AbbeyJoy]

Jesus didn't die spiritually he died physically and went to heaven and came back and rose again in his body. And then went back up into the clouds to heaven