A very critical difference between the old and new covenants

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Jan 19, 2013
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Unfortunately, you have failed to see that throughout ALL of Scripture
God insists on man's free-will co-operation to receive blessings, which include salvation.

God's free gift of GRACE + man's free-will co-operation of obedience = man's salvation
You might want to keep in mind that while Scripture teaches the responsibility of man for his sin
(1Pe 4:5), Jesus also said man is not free, that he is a slave to sin. (Jn 8:34, Gal 3:22; Ro 11:32),
and that it is only those whom the Son makes free (through the new birth) that are free (Jn 8:36;
see Jn 8:32; Ro 6:18, 22, 8:7; Gal 5:1).
 
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AtonedFor

Guest
Keeping in mind that the wheat and the tares look alike,
so Paul's job was simply to teach to all who participated in the church.
God will separate them at the Judgment.
Just as, not knowing who the elect are, we are to preach the gospel to all men,
but only the elect will believe it.
So we shouldn't get to bent out of shape when not everyone responds with faith.
I have feeling that you are NOT being altogether truthful.

For, if you are correct, then Paul was preaching a misleading gospel ...
as
he was promising to all the members of the church @ Ephesus ...

5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins,
according to the riches of His grace

8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will,
according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times
He might gather together in one all things in Christ,

both which are in heaven and which are on earth — in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestined
according to the purpose of Him

who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation;
in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,
to the praise of His glory.

C'mon, time to quit trying to cover your chicken tracks,
and own up to the fact that you're a chicken!

 
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Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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I have feeling that you are NOT being altogether truthful. . .

C'mon, time to quit trying to cover your chicken tracks,
and own up to the fact that you're a chicken!
Awww. . .there is no reason to feel or think that way about me.

For, if you are correct, then Paul was preaching a misleading gospel ...
as
he was promising to all the members of the church @ Ephesus ...
But Paul was writing to the saints at Ephesus, which are the born again.
While participants in the church are composed of both wheat (regenerated) and tares (unregenerated),
what he wrote applies only to those who are born again (regenerated).
 
A

AtonedFor

Guest
Originally Posted by AtonedFor
... throughout ALL of Scripture ...
God insists on man's free-will co-operation to receive blessings, which include salvation.
God's free gift of GRACE + man's free-will co-operation of obedience = man's salvation
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You might want to keep in mind that while Scripture teaches the responsibility of man for his sin (1Pe 4:5),
Jesus also said man is not free, that he is a slave to sin. (Jn 8:34, Gal 3:22; Ro 11:32),
and that it is only those whom the Son makes free (through the new birth) that are free
(Jn 8:36; see Jn 8:32; Ro 6:18, 22, 8:7; Gal 5:1).
I do have that in mind ... at ALL times ... because they are very basic spiritual Truths!

You might want to keep in mind that
I see you (again) as cleverly trying to cover your tracks by stating other obvious truths.

So, why don't you speak directly to my original post above?

Truly, you are "our very own flim-flam personage".
 
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Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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Elin said:
AtonedFor said:
Unfortunately, you have failed to see that throughout ALL of Scripture God insists on man's free-will co-operation to receive blessings, which include salvation.

God's free gift of GRACE + man's free-will co-operation of obedience = man's salvation
You might want to keep in mind that while Scripture teaches the responsibility of man for his sin (1Pe 4:5), Jesus also said that (unregenerate) man is not free, that he is a slave to sin. (Jn 8:34, Gal 3:22; Ro 11:32),
and that it is only those whom the Son makes free (regenerates, new birth) that are free (Jn 8:36; see Jn 8:32; Ro 6:18, 22, 8:7-8; Gal 5:1).
I do have that in mind ... at ALL times ... because they are very basic spiritual Truths!

You might want to keep in mind that
I see you (again) as cleverly trying to cover your tracks by stating other obvious truths.

So, why don't you speak directly to my original post above?
Well, it was my intention to speak directly to your original post in your statement regarding man's free will, and to point out that Scripture does not teach unregenerate man has free will,
but that his will is governed by his disposition, which is fallen and disposed toward sin rather than God (Ro 8:7-8).
 
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AtonedFor

Guest
But Paul was writing to the saints at Ephesus, which are the born again.
While participants in the church are composed of both wheat (regenerated) and tares (unregenerated),
what he wrote applies only to those who are born again (regenerated).
Okay, that's a bit better, but we're goin' in circles ...
for I said ...
NOT ALL BACs are "faithful" saints (Eph 1:1)

At least, NOT in out churches!

Did I hear a "RIGHT ON, BRO!"

No, didn't think so!
 
A

AtonedFor

Guest
Well, it was my intention to speak directly to your original post in your statement regarding man's free will, and to point out that Scripture does not teach unregenerate man has free will,
but that his will is governed by his disposition, which is fallen and disposed toward sin rather than God (Ro 8:7-8).
Okey-dokster! ... Again, more spiritual Truth!
Butski ... Again, circling the wagons!
Thou ist consistent.

We iz talkin' about
AFTER becoming a BAC.

'Twich time, NOT ALL iz faithful saints!

Iz we on da same page YET, or still "Nyetski"?
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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Okay, that's a bit better, but we're goin' in circles ...
for I said ...
NOT ALL BACs are "faithful" saints (Eph 1:1)

At least, NOT in out churches!

Did I hear a "RIGHT ON, BRO!"

No, didn't think so!
The unfaithful are not born again.

For those who born again of the seed (sperma) of God do not habitually disobey and sin. (1Jn 3:9-10).

"Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God
(born again into God's family)."

He is Satan's tare.
 
A

AtonedFor

Guest
The unfaithful are not born again.
For those who born again of the seed (sperma) of God do not habitually disobey and sin. (1Jn 3:9-10).
"Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God
(born again into God's family)."
He is Satan's tare.
Okay, it is very possible that you are correct.
But, I am not convinced.
To claim that ALL BACs are faithful is too much for me to handle.
So, I'll sign off on this.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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Okay, it is very possible that you are correct.
But, I am not convinced.
To claim that ALL BACs are faithful is too much for me to handle.
So, I'll sign off on this.
I appreciate your intellectual honesty.
 
P

psychomom

Guest
I have feeling that you are NOT being altogether truthful.

For, if you are correct, then Paul was preaching a misleading gospel ...
as
he was promising to all the members of the church @ Ephesus ...

5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins,
according to the riches of His grace

8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will,
according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times
He might gather together in one all things in Christ,

both which are in heaven and which are on earth — in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestined
according to the purpose of Him

who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation;
in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,
to the praise of His glory.

C'mon, time to quit trying to cover your chicken tracks,
and own up to the fact that you're a chicken!

why not back up to verse 1, where Paul clearly states he's writing

to the saints who are at Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus? :)
 
P

psychomom

Guest
Awww. . .there is no reason to feel or think that way about me.

But Paul was writing to the saints at Ephesus, which are the born again.
While participants in the church are composed of both wheat (regenerated) and tares (unregenerated),
what he wrote applies only to those who are born again (regenerated).
mighta known Elin would get there first. :)

nice job, sister. ♥
 
A

AtonedFor

Guest
why not back up to verse 1, where Paul clearly states he's writing
to the saints who are at Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus?
:)
You're late to the party ... I've already pointed that out numerous times.
But, Elin believes ALL of these dudes in the pews were faithful saints.
I say it's not very possible.

So, Paul was pulling their legs!

Such as in
Romans 6:15-23 ... figured out that passage yet?
It is all about ...
You BACs are very capable of overcoming sin,
butski, if you don't ... it's eternal death for you
!
Anyone here who sees this ... gets to go to the very head of the class!

Yeah, kinda thought Elin was a f.
 
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psychomom

Guest
You're late to the party ... I've already pointed that out numerous times.
But, Erin believes ALL of these dudes in the pews were faithful saints.
I say it's not very possible.

So, Paul was pulling their legs!
sry, i don't see her saying that at all. :)

she's carefully pointed out the wheat/tare thing, right?
 
A

AtonedFor

Guest
sry, i don't see her saying that at all. :)
she's carefully pointed out the wheat/tare thing, right?
Yes, mam, carefully!
Guess she didn't think I had ever read Matthew.
 
P

psychomom

Guest

Such as in
Romans 6:15-23 ... figured out that passage yet?
It is all about ...
You BACs are very capable of overcoming sin,
butski, if you don't ... it's eternal death for you
!
Anyone here who sees this ... gets to go to the very head of the class!

Yeah, kinda thought Elin was a f.
not sure about that last line, but i love Elin dearly, and would ask you not say bad things about her, if you please?

and you wouldn't believe the Truth of the Romans passage if i told you. :)
 
A

AtonedFor

Guest
you wouldn't believe the Truth of the Romans passage if i told you. :)


Thanks, Rolfie really needed a laugh!


BTW, I really respect Elin's genius ... at avoiding admitting weakness.
 
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Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
Hi, Jason,

I enjoy your good posts,
Thank you Ellin. That is very kind of you to say that.
but I think if you will look into it, you will find
the "Old" Covenant (Heb 8:13) refers to the temporary Mosaic (Sinaitic) Covenant of the blood of bulls and goats, and does not refer to the Abrahamic covenant.
First, in Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10 it appears to be focused on the Law of Moses as the first Testament or Covenant in relation to the New Covenant or the second. But if you were to pay extra special close attention to
Hebrews 9:15, it says Jesus is the Mediator of the New Testament for transgressions for those under the first testament. This would include Adam's transgressions, too.
A couple of things to consider here:

1) The context of Heb 9--where the "first covenant" of 9:15 is the same "first" of 9:18, which is mediated by Moses, making the covenant of 9:15 the Mosaic (Sinaitic) Covenant.

2) The reasoning of Paul's argument in Ro 5:12-14-- where there was no Law from Adam to Moses,
and so no transgressions of the Law,
therefore, sin was not taken into account between Adam and Moses. (Ro 5:13-14).
But that there was "sin in the world" during that period is proven by the fact that all men died,
and death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23).
However, without the Law and sin not being taken into account, the only sin in the world was Adam's garden transgression of God's law, "Thou shalt not eat of it."
By this reasoning, Paul shows that it was the wages of the sin of Adam's transgression in the garden that caused death to reign from Adam to Moses.

My point being that, since from Adam to Moses there were no transgressions of the Law, and no sin was taken into account,
the OT transgressions propitiated by the death of Christ (Ro 3:25) were those against the Law from Moses to Christ,
meaning that "the first" referred to in Heb 9:15, 18 is the Mosaic covenant, not the Abrahamic covenant.

For in 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 5 we can see
death was brought in by the first Adam and Life was brought in by the last Adam, Jesus Christ.
It's a contrast of the Old and the New.
Yes. . .however, death is not the subject of Heb 9:15, the subject there is OT transgressions.
And the OT transgressions of Heb 9:15; Ro 3:25 occurred only from Moses to Christ.

So the contrast of Heb 9:15 is between the Mosaic (Old) covenant (Heb 8:13, 9:18) and the New Covenant of Lk 22:20.


Yes, Abraham's Covenant was based on the Promise and not Law, but he
still lived under the Old Covenant whereby He made animal sacrifices unto God and obeyed the Lord by faith.
The "Old" Covenant in the NT refers to the Mosaic Covenant (Heb 8:13).

So Abraham did not live under the Mosaic Covenant, for it did not exist until Moses.
Abraham lived under the Abrahamic Covenant.
 
P

psychomom

Guest
However, without the Law and sin not being taken into account, the only sin in the world was Adam's garden transgression of God's law, "Thou shalt not eat of it."
By this reasoning, Paul shows that it was the wages of the sin of Adam's transgression in the garden that caused death to reign from Adam to Moses.
the first imputation? :(
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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Elin said:
However, without the Law and sin not being taken into account, the only sin in the world was Adam's garden transgression of God's law, "Thou shalt not eat of it."
By this reasoning, Paul shows that it was the wages of the sin of Adam's transgression in the garden that caused death to reign from Adam to Moses.
the first imputation? :(
Yep. . .and the gift of the second imputation overflowed to the many, following many transgressions and bringing justification, the gift of righteousness to reign in life through Jesus Christ.