Why do Atheists Bother?

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Siberian_Khatru

Guest
Interestingly though, I wonder if you believe that you can have free will if you believe in an all-knowing God. If a god knows everything that ever has and will happened, then essentially, it is set in stone. There is no way it can happen any differently if the outcome is already known.
It seems as though you are blurring foreknowledge with foreordaining, the former of which does not subtract from freewill.
 
Sep 14, 2014
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My question wasnt about what atheists believe but why they take Christmas,or some do,to try and stir up controversy. If you dont like Christmas dont celebrate it.I dont see big billboards against Muslim holy holy days or Jewish holy days,why not?
I enjoy a secular Christmas. I love exchanging gifts, the films on TV, music etc. Always enjoyed this time of year.

There is more than one way to celebrate it.

I don't have to believe in god to celebrate it, same as I don't have to believe in witches and ghosts to enjoy Halloween.
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
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So we now get our theology from Steven Spielberg?
The story of Jesus and his love is the old, old, older story.

Hymn: https://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/h/1064


[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]I love to tell the story
Of unseen things above,
Of Jesus and His glory,
Of Jesus and His love.
I love to tell the story,
Because I know ’tis true;
It satisfies my longings
As nothing else can do.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="class: chorus"]I love to tell the story,
’Twill be my theme in glory
To tell the old, old story
of Jesus and His love.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
2
[/TD]
[TD]I love to tell the story;
More wonderful it seems
Than all the golden fancies
Of all my golden dreams,
I love to tell the story,
It did so much for me;
And that is just the reason
I tell it now to thee.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
3
[/TD]
[TD]I love to tell the story;
’Tis pleasant to repeat
What seems each time I tell it,
More wonderfully sweet.
I love to tell the story;
For some have never heard
The message of salvation
From God’s own holy Word.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
4
[/TD]
[TD]I love to tell the story;
For those who know it best
Seem hungering and thirsting
To hear it like the rest.
And when, in scenes of glory,
I sing the new, new song,
’Twill be the old, old story,
That I have loved so long.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Dec 6, 2014
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Oh it doesn't scare me, it can't... Solipsism is impossible, unless you don't believe in God then everything is possible and impossible at the same time (It's a huge mess)

See here is the thing, you have no clue that you are actually living, you have no reason to say there is right or wrong... Lets play this out logically...

Let's say I am born with a different chemical balance in my brain and I like to hurt people, and any time I hurt someone it makes me happy. Is it right or wrong that I do this?
Your only answer can be, it's wrong because I don't think you should hurt people, and the question is, how do we know evolution gave you the correct brain?
Or you answer, it's wrong because majority of people don't like to hurt people, and then the question is, how do you know I am not more evolved then everyone else?


You see if I only act the way I do because of the chemicals put into my brain by chance through natural selection, anything I do is not my fault, its evolution's fault for creating me this way and I have no control over what my brain does, only the illusion of free will.

With your pragmatic mind you have to understand that in your philosophy if I was to rape a 2 year old child, it is only because of the chemical reactions in my brain, nothing more, nothing less... You can try to attribute morality to the situation, however, when doing so you are only dancing to the chemicals in your brain. In your philosophy there is no morality, only appeal to majority, or appeal to self. In both cases you get logical fallacy's.



I digress but if you follow the argument further, the theory of no free will is a logical fallacy.
I'm trying to follow the discussion. This is a hypothetical scenario to Leannaix about if the child molestor has free will or not? If he doesn't have free will, then it's not his fault he rapes the 2 year old because of the chemicals in his brain... where as, if we say he had free will, the predisposition to rape the 2 year old could (or could not) be there, but he can still exercise free will and NOT do it?

Does Leannaix think we don't have free will? Do atheists in general typically believe we don't have free will? Do you personally believe atheists cannot have free will? If you believe they can't, it is because they believe they are made up of chemical reactions and so it is impossible to believe they have free will?

Sorry, just trying to catch-up and make sense of what everyone is talking about.
 
Sep 14, 2014
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As an atheist I have no free will. I am being forced by my body to write this post, I have no choice in the matter lol
 
K

Kerry

Guest
There is a passage in the bible that settles this debate at least for me and it is found in the Gospel of Luke. I think Chap 22 I'm not sure but I can look it if searching is a problem. But it is the passage where Moses is talking to the rich guy who is in hell and the rich guy ask for a drop of water. Then ask, that Moses send some back to warn his brothers of this place. Moses replied, they have the law and the prophets if they will not believe them they would not believe even though one came back from the dead.

A person bent on being there own God, will not accept another God it, is biblical fact. Unless of course, they get in a place where the gospel is preached and the Holy Spirit breaks that hard ground, But even then if they reject time and time again, The Holy Spirit will no longer tug at their heart. Saying My Spirit will not strive with man forever.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
Romans 1

20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
 
Dec 6, 2014
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For atheists that believe we have no free will, why/how have you come to this conclusion? I try to look at things from all points of view so I promise to be open-minded about whatever it is you have to say.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
I enjoy a secular Christmas. I love exchanging gifts, the films on TV, music etc. Always enjoyed this time of year.

There is more than one way to celebrate it.

I don't have to believe in god to celebrate it, same as I don't have to believe in witches and ghosts to enjoy Halloween.


Didnt say you had to believe in God to celebrate it.You celebrate your way and say happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas if you wish. I wont rain on your parade and you dont rain on mine.Thats fair.So why the big billboard? Dont get it.
 
H

hopesprings

Guest
T Laurich - u asked about the distance of Lucy's knee bone from the rest of the discovery found in 1974, but u haven't said anything about the significance of that information. Super interested in knowing why u think this discovery is fake....
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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[video=youtube;HtkC7G8PbD0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtkC7G8PbD0[/video]
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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Didnt say you had to believe in God to celebrate it.You celebrate your way and say happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas if you wish. I wont rain on your parade and you dont rain on mine.Thats fair.So why the big billboard? Dont get it.
Merry "Christ"mas or Happy "Holy"days....is there really much of a difference?:) I mean other than the intentions of the individual.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Does Leannaix think we don't have free will? Do atheists in general typically believe we don't have free will?
I am an atheist and I believe we all have free will. My gut feeling is that most atheists would agree with me on this. We still must recognize, at the same time, that as hominins our actions are directed to some extent by constraints placed upon us as a species by evolution, but within that framework I would say we have free will, which in all likely-hood is a gift of our greater intellect.
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
933
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The sign is not opposing Christmas. It’s a declaration by the little girl on the poster that she does not want to go to church. Do you notice that she is following the secular tradition of writing to Santa? I see the campaign as promoting a secular Christmas.
american-atheists-christmas-billboard-reading-dear-santa-all-i-want-for-christmas-is-to-skip-chu.jpg

Atheists appear to be unscientific, inconsistent and unkind here in promoting myth and fairy tales related to Santa Claus while casting aspersions at others.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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T Laurich - u asked about the distance of Lucy's knee bone from the rest of the discovery found in 1974, but u haven't said anything about the significance of that information. Super interested in knowing why u think this discovery is fake....
I think T_Laurich's intention is to show that the knee joint is not connected to the leg bone. :) In other words it doesn't belong to Lucy. I've looked into this since his post, and I would agree, and so would all the scientists. The point is it doesn't matter. The features that show Lucy walked on two legs are present, not just in the knee, but in other parts of her skeleton as well. Here's another point: this is not the only skeleton we have for Australopithecus afarensis. For example, in 1975 the remains of some 13 individual members of this species (perhaps a single family?) was discovered in one location. They had all apparently been killed at the same time, though as yet we don't know how. We have enough bones from individual finds to put together a full representation of Lucy's skeleton even though her own skeleton was not complete. Lucy was a member of a species that possessed both ape and human characteristics in her skeleton. She looks for all the world like a transitional species between apes and humans which is why T_Laurich is so anxious to make you think she is a fake. Just remember her remains are only one of many examples of her group that have been found.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Cycel said:
The sign is not opposing Christmas. It’s a declaration by the little girl on the poster that she does not want to go to church. Do you notice that she is following the secular tradition of writing to Santa? I see the campaign as promoting a secular Christmas.
Nl said:
Atheists appear to be unscientific, inconsistent and unkind here in promoting myth and fairy tales related to Santa Claus while casting aspersions at others.
Unscientific? Why would you say that? What has science got to do with this?

Inconsistent? Not at all. The tradition of Santa Claus is merely a pleasant adult conspiracy intended to bring pleasure to children and adults alike at this wonderful time of year.

Unkind? How? When I was the age of the girl in this poster I too wanted to get out of going to church. I can identify with the kid in the pic (I think it’s cute and perhaps a little mischievous), though I would not have traded away my Christmas presents for anything. :)

I stand by what I said above, I see the campaign as simply promoting a secular Christmas. If you want to believe December 25th was actually the birthday of Jesus, go right ahead and believe this. It doesn’t hurt anyone or anything and it’s a good excuse to set up a lovely manger scene above the fireplace. I am all in favour of tradition.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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Unscientific? Why would you say that? What has science got to do with this?

Inconsistent? Not at all. The tradition of Santa Claus is merely a pleasant adult conspiracy intended to bring pleasure to children and adults alike at this wonderful time of year.

Unkind? How? When I was the age of the girl in this poster I too wanted to get out of going to church. I can identify with the kid in the pic (I think it’s cute and perhaps a little mischievous), though I would not have traded away my Christmas presents for anything. :)

I stand by what I said above, I see the campaign as simply promoting a secular Christmas. If you want to believe December 25th was actually the birthday of Jesus, go right ahead and believe this. It doesn’t hurt anyone or anything and it’s a good excuse to set up a lovely manger scene above the fireplace. I am all in favour of tradition.
That is a least the second time that you have made an issue of Jesus' birthday being December 25th. I don't know how many sermons (around Christmas time) that I've heard stating that we don't know when Jesus was born. I have even heard many arguments from Christians that we should not celebrate Christmas because it has a non-Christian (non-Biblical) origin. I think that both of those arguments are non-productive. It is the capitalism/commercialism that destroys Christmas. Where Christmas becomes a "give me" holiday!

I think Christmas and Easter should be celebrated because, sadly, many people only attend Church once or twice a year. It is an opportunity to encourage them to attend more frequently. Personally, I could do without the gift-giving bologna between family, friends, and co-workers. As for giving to those in need, I think we should do a better job of that year 'round.
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
933
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I think T_Laurich's intention is to show that the knee joint is not connected to the leg bone. :) In other words it doesn't belong to Lucy. I've looked into this since his post, and I would agree, and so would all the scientists. The point is it doesn't matter. The features that show Lucy walked on two legs are present, not just in the knee, but in other parts of her skeleton as well. Here's another point: this is not the only skeleton we have for Australopithecus afarensis. For example, in 1975 the remains of some 13 individual members of this species (perhaps a single family?) was discovered in one location. They had all apparently been killed at the same time, though as yet we don't know how. We have enough bones from individual finds to put together a full representation of Lucy's skeleton even though her own skeleton was not complete. Lucy was a member of a species that possessed both ape and human characteristics in her skeleton. She looks for all the world like a transitional species between apes and humans which is why T_Laurich is so anxious to make you think she is a fake. Just remember her remains are only one of many examples of her group that have been found.
Check out the skull image of Australopithecus afarensis at: Australopithecus afarensis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The jaw protrudes.
The brain cavity is small.
There is nasal hole as in a chimpanzee rather than a nasal bone as in a human.

This looks more like a chimpanzee head...

Link: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Chimpanzee-Head.jpg

Than a human head...

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/e/7/c/d/12923863261071580622skull-md.png
 
Dec 12, 2013
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There is a passage in the bible that settles this debate at least for me and it is found in the Gospel of Luke. I think Chap 22 I'm not sure but I can look it if searching is a problem. But it is the passage where Moses is talking to the rich guy who is in hell and the rich guy ask for a drop of water. Then ask, that Moses send some back to warn his brothers of this place. Moses replied, they have the law and the prophets if they will not believe them they would not believe even though one came back from the dead.

A person bent on being there own God, will not accept another God it, is biblical fact. Unless of course, they get in a place where the gospel is preached and the Holy Spirit breaks that hard ground, But even then if they reject time and time again, The Holy Spirit will no longer tug at their heart. Saying My Spirit will not strive with man forever.

Luke chapter 16
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
933
22
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The features that show Lucy walked on two legs are present, not just in the knee, but in other parts of her skeleton as well. Here's another point: this is not the only skeleton we have for Australopithecus afarensis. For example, in 1975 the remains of some 13 individual members of this species (perhaps a single family?) was discovered in one location. They had all apparently been killed at the same time, though as yet we don't know how. We have enough bones from individual finds to put together a full representation of Lucy's skeleton even though her own skeleton was not complete. Lucy was a member of a species that possessed both ape and human characteristics in her skeleton.
How do you know that Australopithecus afarensis was bipedal and not a quadripedal tree dweller?