All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

[popeye]

Ac 3:21 is Scripture.

In Heb 9:27-28 the author states that
there will be no appearing prior to his coming to judge the world, because Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge.
Heb states that just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, and not in between.

Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be
only one more appearing to come, the only one
in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

Man,you have absolutely twisted that. You are really doing a hack job.
That is not saying anything like that.
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
We are being told that one sacrifice once and for all,to end all sacrifices and do what the blood of animals can not do.

and not in between.

Even tough the word testifies to his muliple comings you still protect your doctrine

Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be
only one more appearing to come, the only one
in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

this statement of yours eems fitting,since you pulled it out of the sky as i have CLEARLY shown you

 

[Agricola]

Truth is important, particularly about the hope of all believers, the second coming of Christ,
and what the NT teaches regarding it.

But not to the point of falling out with each other and calling each other names and accusing of being false teacher wolf in sheep clothing.

All Christians should know and learn about these things, yes that is correct, but no Christian should blindly follow a set interpretation of prophecy, this is what we are talking about, a future event which we have no idea of timing or how it will come about, otherwise the Christian could miss important things, refusing to accept that the person appearing on world stage is the anti-christ because they have not been raptured.

The signs of return of Christ may be debated, but the actual return of Christ will be blindingly obvious, beleivers will know it is Christ, well those that are still alive that is. Same goes when the Anti-Christ emerges, if we have learnt all the stuff about the Anti-Christ then we will see him for what he is. Arguing over trivial things like timing of rapture or even if it will happen, will not achieve this.

 

[DiscipleDave]

i apologize for not reading all the posts, so please forgive if i say something that has already been covered.

God told me one time "If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures, then what you believe is wrong."

There are verses that plainly contradict the pre-trib belief.
There are verses that plainly contradict the post-trib belief too.

Scriptures plainly teach that we will go through some of the Tribulations, but not the worst part of it. Therefore Mid-trib belief is the only belief that agrees with what Scriptures teach. Mid-Trib is the Truth.

^i^

 

[popeye]

Matt. 24 is speaking to the the Jewish Christians and the coming forces of Titus to destroy the temple and lay waste Jerusalem, taking the contents of the temple and many captives as slaves back to Rome. Not one stone left on another. That generation did not pass till it all came to pass. Are their double prophetic fulfillments in place? I'm sure.

Yes it is multifaceted and obvious to us looking back. It was recorded (heven't verified it) that Josepus states not one christian died in the seige of Jerusalem.(due to Jesus comand and warning)
Some actually believed they were seing the AC.

 

[popeye]

i apologize for not reading all the posts, so please forgive if i say something that has already been covered.

God told me one time "If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures, then what you believe is wrong."

There are verses that plainly contradict the pre-trib belief.
There are verses that plainly contradict the post-trib belief too.

Scriptures plainly teach that we will go through some of the Tribulations, but not the worst part of it. Therefore Mid-trib belief is the only belief that agrees with what Scriptures teach. Mid-Trib is the Truth.

^i^

The bride/groom dimension is the "game changer" Post or mid falls apart....big time
Note that neither teaches this dimension. Red flags anyone??

 

[popeye]

But not to the point of falling out with each other and calling each other names and accusing of being false teacher wolf in sheep clothing.

All Christians should know and learn about these things, yes that is correct, but no Christian should blindly follow a set interpretation of prophecy, this is what we are talking about, a future event which we have no idea of timing or how it will come about, otherwise the Christian could miss important things, refusing to accept that the person appearing on world stage is the anti-christ because they have not been raptured.

The signs of return of Christ may be debated, but the actual return of Christ will be blindingly obvious, beleivers will know it is Christ, well those that are still alive that is. Same goes when the Anti-Christ emerges, if we have learnt all the stuff about the Anti-Christ then we will see him for what he is. Arguing over trivial things like timing of rapture or even if it will happen, will not achieve this.

Actually the heart of the issue is not the rapture. The rapture is simply the gathering,which pales in comparison to the heavenly scene where the business of the groom is taken care of.
The time of the gentiles fulfilled. God's purpose is the actual heart of the matter

 

[Elin]

Ac 3:21 is Scripture.

In Heb 9:27-28 the author states that
there will be no appearing prior to his coming to judge the world, because Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge.
Heb states that just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, and not in between.

Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be
only one more appearing to come, the only one
in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

Man,you have absolutely twisted that. You are really doing a hack job.
That is not saying anything like that.

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
We are being told that one sacrifice once and for all,to end all sacrifices and do what the blood of animals can not do.

That is not Heb 9:27-28.

In 2Th 1:6-10, Paul locates Jesus' coming to relieve the saints (rapture) from persecution (v.7)
with Jesus' coming to judge the world (vv. 8-10).

There Paul is comforting the Thessalonians in their suffering (v.4)
with the fact that God will punish those who persecute them (vv. 5-6),
and that God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7),
which is his coming in judgment (v.8).

Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world
at the end of time.

 

[dcontroversal]

Man,you have absolutely twisted that. You are really doing a hack job.
That is not saying anything like that.
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
We are being told that one sacrifice once and for all,to end all sacrifices and do what the blood of animals can not do.


Even tough the word testifies to his muliple comings you still protect your doctrine



this statement of yours eems fitting,since you pulled it out of the sky as i have CLEARLY shown you

You do understand tenses right...

was<--past tense
is<--present tense
is to come<---FUTURE TENSE

There is but ONE (1) PAROUSIA of Jesus and ALL things must jive with one coming.....!

 

[dcontroversal]

i apologize for not reading all the posts, so please forgive if i say something that has already been covered.

God told me one time "If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures, then what you believe is wrong."

There are verses that plainly contradict the pre-trib belief.
There are verses that plainly contradict the post-trib belief too.

Scriptures plainly teach that we will go through some of the Tribulations, but not the worst part of it. Therefore Mid-trib belief is the only belief that agrees with what Scriptures teach. Mid-Trib is the Truth.

^i^

Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 all teach that AFTER the GREAT TRIBULATION of those days.....

the bible teaches post tribulation/pre-wrath ingathering.......

Tribulation-->thilipsis
Wrath-->orge

Two different words with two different applications.....

 

[AtonedFor]

Scriptures plainly teach that we will go through some of the Tribulations,
but not the worst part of it.

I hope you're not confused with the verses which speak of "the wrath of God",
which comes after the great tribulation of the antichrist.

 

[Nautilus]

Okay, but do you have what is required to get through the great tribulation?
Because if you don't, you won't make it through.

if i die, i die. Dont recall living through the tribulation as a measuring stick of getting to heaven.

 

[Sophia]

According to the Prophets, especially the minor Prophets, the Coming of the Son of Man has two roles: to save the righteous, and destroy the wicked. From everything I've read in Revelation, it seems like the 3.5 years of persecution come first, then Christ Returns, saves His people from persecution, and brings 3.5 years of wrath. This is what I have understood, but I could be wrong. The definitive Truth is this: we must ready ourselves Today for His Coming, and renew ourselves daily in Him.

 

[Jason0047]

Unfortunately, there is not enough space to fully quote most of the Scripture references!

If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ …
the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be gathered at His second coming,
and not at some secret return that precedes His BIG coming at the end of the tribulation!

Matthew 24:21-31 • Might as well get the most obvious proof out of the way first!
“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world
until this time, no, nor ever shall be. … Immediately after the tribulation of those days
the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear
in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man
coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels
with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.”

What do the disciples ask Jesus in Matthew 24? Do they ask Jesus about the mystery that was revealed to Paul? No, they couldn't; Because Saul/Paul was not a believer yet. They asked Jesus what shall be the sign of his coming and the end of the world. So they are not the same "catching ups" or "rapture events." The parable in Matthew 25 alludes to the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Rapture vs Resurrection • The main difficulty here is our understanding of the resurrection!
John 5:28-29 “… for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear
His voice and come forth — those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”
Luke 14:14 “… you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”
Acts 24:15 “… there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.”
• The archangel Michael instructs Daniel about the tribulation and the resurrection:
Daniel 12:2 “… many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
• The passages above plainly state that there are 2 resurrections:
• a resurrection of the good and just … and a resurrection of the evil and unjust.
Revelation 20:4-12
4 “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God,
who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they (believers) lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog,
to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.
And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone
where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face
the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened.
And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.
And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.”
• The U/L verses above plainly state that there are 2 resurrections separated by 1000 years (the millenium).
• The first resurrection is that of believers … 1000 years later, the others are resurrected.

Not in disagreement that there is a resurrection of the saints and a resurrection of the wicked. Not in disagreemeent that there are two bodily resurrections before and after the Millennium. Those who are resurrected physically to go thru the Millennium are certain saints who sit on the throne (i.e. Abraham and select patriarchs) and the Tribulation saints. The rest of the dead (Which would include those taken up in the Pre-Trib Rapture) would be physically resurrected after the Millennium. For he that is last is first and he that is first is last.

The Last Trumpet • The resurrection of ALL dead believers is at the LAST trumpet.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds”
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment,
in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound,
and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
• The verses above describe the resurrection of ALL dead believers! And also, those who are
alive on earth will be changed to the same incorruptible state as the resurrected believers.
• The pre-trib doctrine teaches that believers living in the last generation will be
changed into an eternal state at the beginning of the tribulation period.
If the dead believers are resurrected at the same time as the rapture (before the tribulation),
how can these so-called tribulation saints be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?
Because … there are only 2 resurrections: ONE for the believers and ONE for the lost.
But, pre-trib falsely teaches 2 resurrections for believers.
Also, pre-trib falsely teaches that raptured saints are the “firstfruits”, however Jesus is!
1 Cor 15:23 “But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.”
• Also, “the dead in Christ” refers to the group of ALL the dead in Christ.
How could this main harvest be considered merely the “firstfruits”?
Jesus returns at His second coming at the end of the tribulation period.
There will be Christians alive at that time.
ALL dead believers will be resurrected from the dead, and then …
“we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds”

1 Corinthians 15 talks about how there is a natural body and spiritual body. Hence, which implies there are two types of resurrections. One being spiritual and one being physical. The Sadducess who asked Jesus about whose wife will a man have if they had previous wives that died did not believe in the bodily resurrection. Jesus acknowledged that there is a time when we will go to Heaven by saying that there is no marriage in heaven. Remember corruption does not inherit incorruption. We shall be changed. In the twinkling of an eye. In other words, our spirits need to be cleansed and purged of any corruption before entering Heaven.

The Elect • Please refer to Matthew 24 above!
Pre-trib’s excuse for “His elect” is that it is some group of Jewish believers! This is absurd, e.g.
-- Paul refers to the Jews as “Israel” and the believers in Christ as “the elect” (Romans 11:7)
-- Writing mostly to Greek believers, Paul refers to them as “the elect of God” (Colossians 3:12-13)

The Elect are made up of both believing Jews and Greeks. There is no difference.

The Last Day
John 6:39-54 “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees
the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
… No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
… Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
• Jesus has clearly stated that the dead believers will be raised up on the last day!
How can the rapture doctrine have “the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thes 4:16), followed by a rapture
… if this rapture occurs 7 years before the last day? … How many occurrences of “the last day” are there?
• Pre-trib says they meet the Lord in the air (along with the living believers) before the tribulation.
All 4 gospels have references to a trumpet, and all occur in connection with the end of
the tribulation and the resurrection of believers! This is especially obvious in Matthew 24.
In Revelation, there are 7 consecutive trumpets encompassing the entire tribulation period,
with the last trumpet obviously coming at the very end.
Pre-trib has unsurmountable problems with the last day and the last trumpet.

Again, one resurrection is spiritual and one is physical. Jesus told the Sadducees (who did not believe in the bodlly resurrection) that he was not the God of the dead, but of the living. Also, you are confusing the trumpets again. For one, the trumpet in Revelation is not even called the Last Trump. Second, at the Rapture Trumpet, they are said that they will be where Jesus is. Yet, in Matthew 24, the disciples ask where are they being taken (i.e. the one in the field, etc.). Jesus alludes about how they will be taken to the battle of Armageddon (For the carcases is the flesh of kings and captains and the fowl or eagles are the saints). One trumpet is for Judgment. The other Trumpet is a call to home.

The Days of Noah
Matthew 24:37-41 “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,
until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did NOT KNOW until the flood came and took them all away,
so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken
and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.”
Luke 17:26-37 “And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man
… Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left.
Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?” So He said to them,
“Wherever the body is, there the eagles (or vultures) will be gathered together.”
Matthew 24:28 “For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
• The disciples asked, “Where were they taken, Lord?”
His response was like, “Where the dead bodies are is where the eagles (vultures) gather.”
Those who are taken are taken to destruction, to the place where the eagles circle overhead.
Immediately preceding the flood, no one had any idea that destruction was about to fall.
And “so also will the coming of the Son of Man be”!
Most church people are not expecting danger … they are expecting to be raptured.
They are the ones who “did NOT KNOW until the flood came and took them all away” (Matt 24:39).
As in the days of Noah, the ones who will be taken away are taken away to destruction!
But, some believers today are like Noah and his family who spent 120 years building the Ark.
Some today are getting prepared to “ride it out” during the coming persecution and tribulation.
Another sign this event is one of judgment: both eagle and vulture are abominations (Lev 11:13).
The true believer is among those who will remain, while the others are taken to be destroyed.
“Watch therefore, for you do NOT KNOW what hour your Lord is coming … Therefore you
also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do NOT EXPECT.” (Matt 24:42-44).
• Yes, the believers do NOT KNOW that they will NOT be evacuated before things get really rough.
Noah was involved in heavy-duty preparations for the coming disaster.
True believers (who refuse to take the mark) do NOT KNOW they won’t be able to buy anything!

Noah warned them of the coming flood. But they did not believe. It will be the same again. God's Word will preached about Christ's return. But most of the world will not believe, and they will not expect his return. Just as those who perished in the flood were not expecting the flood to come.

Again, Enoch is a type of the Pre-Trib Rapture.
Methuselah iis like the Tribulation saints who die before the Judgment (Great Tribulation) comes.
Noah & his family are like the 144,000 who are protected thru the time of Judgment.

 

[Jason0047]

Coming upon you as a thief • This is a negative event, not a positive one!
Revelation 3:2-3 “Be watchful … for I have not found your works perfect before God.
… hold fast and repent … if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief,
and you will NOT KNOW what hour I will come upon you.”
• Jesus clearly warns that some believers will be IN ERROR about the timing of His return.
This group’s works are lacking … they need to repent and re-evaluate when Jesus will return.
1 Thessalonians 5:
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!”, then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
• However, Paul says true believers WILL KNOW when the thief comes!
This group are “sons of light … not of the night nor of darkness” (1 Thes 5:5).
As for the other group, Paul says sudden destruction will come upon those
who are of the night and darkness, who are those who say,“Peace and safety!”
All of the 15 NT verses which refer to Christ’s coming as a thief
… refer to His second coming at the end of the tribulation period.
Matthew 24:43 “But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour
the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.”
John 10:10 “The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.”
2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens
will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat;
both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”
1 Thes 5:2-3 “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord
so comes as a thief in the night … then sudden destruction comes upon them”
• We always see the thief being spoken of in a negative context, not a positive rescuing one!
1 Thes 5:4 “But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.”
• The above clearly says believers will be on the earth when “the Day” arrives!
And some of them will be prepared for that Day because they have been watching and anticipating.
Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches,
and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”
• In this verse (and Revelation 3 above), believers are told to watch and Christ is referred to as a thief.
At this point, all 7 seal judgments have occurred, all 7 trumpets have sounded, and at least
6 of the 7 vial judgments have been poured out. Then, immediately preceding the battle
of Armaggedon, Christ says: “I will come upon you as a thief” (Revelation 3:3)
All of this is irrefutable Scriptural proof that the thief in the night comes AFTER the tribulation!

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 describes the Rapture, when Christ comes to the clouds above the earth and catches up or raptures all living Christians on the earth to meet Him in the air. In Chapter 5 he changes topics. This is proven by his use of two little Greek words, peri de. These two words in 1 Thessalonians 5:1 could be translated, "But concerning" or "Now about." These two words are used nine times by Paul in 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians. Every time Paul uses these two words, they always denote a change in subject matter. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 the subject matter is what happens at the Rapture. But in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 he introduces a new subject, a different event, the Day of the Lord. By doing this, Paul indicates that the Day of the Lord and the Rapture are not the same, they are separate events. That is, the events making up the Day of the Lord do not include the Rapture of the Church. But that's not all.

There are other reasons Paul gives why the events making up the Day of the Lord do not include the Rapture of the Church. What are they? We know from Zechariah 12 and 14 that the events making up the Day of the Lord include the nations gathering against Israel, great cosmic judgments that God brings, and the Day of the Lord ends with the Second Coming of Christ. But Paul tells Christians that they will not be overtaken by this Day of the Lord, that they are not a part of that day. Where does he say this? In 1 Thessalonians 5:4 he says, "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief." Also, in verse 9 Paul tells them why they won?t experience any part of the coming Day of the Lord. He says, "For God has not destined us for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." The Rapture is not part of the Day of the Lord, and takes place before it starts. How do we know this?

Paul told the Thessalonians in 1 Thessalonians 5:2, "For you yourselves have accurate [or perfect] knowledge about the day of the Lord." In other words, Paul is saying he had already given them full, exact information about the events that would happen during the Day of the Lord.

But it is interesting that even though they had perfect, accurate knowledge about the Day of the Lord, they were ignorant about the Rapture. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul tells them he does not want them to remain ignorant about the Rapture. Well, if they had perfect or accurate knowledge about the Day of the Lord but they were ignorant about the Rapture, then the Rapture must not be a part of the Day of the Lord or they would have known about it. So first, Paul writes about the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, then he changes topics and writes Chapter 5 to calm their fears about the Day of the Lord. In doing so, he indicates that the Rapture of the Church will take place before the Day of the Lord starts. Since the Rapture is not part of the Day of the Lord, and since the Day of the Lord concludes with Christ?s returning to earth in judgment, the two events, the Rapture and the Second Coming, must be separate events.

The Day of the Lord • The wrath of God - at Jesus’ second coming - at the end of the tribulation!
Both Paul and Peter connect the coming of the “thief in the night” with the Day of the Lord:
1 Thessalonians 5:2 “the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night”
2 Peter 3:10 “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night”
• The Day of the Lord ALWAYS speaks of the second coming of Christ at the very end of the tribulation.
All 23 references of the Day of the Lord refer to the destructive post-tribulation return of Jesus Christ.
One example is … Isaiah 13:6-9 “Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction
from the Almighty. … Behold, the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
to lay the land desolate; and He will destroy its sinners from it.”
• The wrath of God comes on the day of the Lord … at the very end of the tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the
heavens will be shaken ... and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven
with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
• However, some believe that the Day of the Lord actually begins at the supposed pre-tribulation rapture!

2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens
will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat;
both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”
• There is no way this verse can be turned into a blessed rapture of the saints!

But, Satan’s extremely dangerous pre-tribulation rapture theory remains alive and well on planet earth!

The Day of the Lord is also mentioned as the Day of Christ in the King James within 2 Thessalonians 2. That time is marked by the middle of the Tribulation when the falling away of the saints takes place and the Antichrist shows himself to be God within the Jewish temple (i.e. the Abomination of Desolations). The Day of the Lord also lines up with sixth seal. Both events have blood moons and black dark skies. In other words, the Day of the Lord is a period of time. It is the the last half of the Tribulation which is a part of the Great Tribulation (that would include the killing of the saints by their refusing to take the Mark). The 6th seal is an answer of vengeance from the saints with the 5th seal in them crying out for justice (Because they were martyred by the Antichrist).


Source used for the reply on the transition made between 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Thessalonians 5:
Rapture Watch - a global end times prophecy resource.

 

[sassylady]

The rapture is when we meet Him in the air, His second return is when He will set foot on the earth.

 

[notuptome]

The rapture is when we meet Him in the air, His second return is when He will set foot on the earth.

A simple yet astute observation.

A couple things to consider. First the church is not appointed to wrath. God never intends to pour out His terrible wrath on the church. The church has tribulation from the world while it is in the world but is never subject to Gods wrath. Gods wrath is appointed to the unsaved.

The tribulation prophesied by Daniel is about Israel not the church. It is Israel that will be subject to great tribulation. So much so that they will give up. Christ is returning to rescue Israel who rejected Him at His first advent. The church has received the blessings of the promise because Israel rejected Christ. God is still going to bless Israel but they will go through virtual hell on earth first.

The church is taken out and kept safe during all this ugliness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[popeye]

That is not Heb 9:27-28.

In 2Th 1:6-10, Paul locates Jesus' coming to relieve the saints (rapture) from persecution (v.7)
with Jesus' coming to judge the world (vv. 8-10).

There Paul is comforting the Thessalonians in their suffering (v.4)
with the fact that God will punish those who persecute them (vv. 5-6),
and that God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7),
which is his coming in judgment (v.8).

Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world
at the end of time.

Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world
at the end of time.

Mat 256 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

No,you are way,way off. Not even a hint of judgement.
You have failed to factor in the bride/groom dimension so you're oblivious to the purose of the rapture and miss the dispensation of the gentiles ENDING.(which is why AC is EMPOWERED to kill all saints on the planet) DURING THE GT
This is why the GT is referred to as Jacob's trouble=ISRAELS TROUBLE.
I know of no other study,besides postrib rapture, (except debating the orthodox Jews) where a huge segment of the word is edited out for a doctrine's sake.
Why?

The word clearly,clearly shows all saints killed by AC DURING THE GT.
.....Making your theory IMPOSSIBLE

 

[popeye]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 describes the Rapture, when Christ comes to the clouds above the earth and catches up or raptures all living Christians on the earth to meet Him in the air. In Chapter 5 he changes topics. This is proven by his use of two little Greek words, peri de. These two words in 1 Thessalonians 5:1 could be translated, "But concerning" or "Now about." These two words are used nine times by Paul in 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians. Every time Paul uses these two words, they always denote a change in subject matter. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 the subject matter is what happens at the Rapture. But in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 he introduces a new subject, a different event, the Day of the Lord. By doing this, Paul indicates that the Day of the Lord and the Rapture are not the same, they are separate events. That is, the events making up the Day of the Lord do not include the Rapture of the Church. But that's not all.

There are other reasons Paul gives why the events making up the Day of the Lord do not include the Rapture of the Church. What are they? We know from Zechariah 12 and 14 that the events making up the Day of the Lord include the nations gathering against Israel, great cosmic judgments that God brings, and the Day of the Lord ends with the Second Coming of Christ. But Paul tells Christians that they will not be overtaken by this Day of the Lord, that they are not a part of that day. Where does he say this? In 1 Thessalonians 5:4 he says, "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the Day should overtake you like a thief." Also, in verse 9 Paul tells them why they won?t experience any part of the coming Day of the Lord. He says, "For God has not destined us for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." The Rapture is not part of the Day of the Lord, and takes place before it starts. How do we know this?

Paul told the Thessalonians in 1 Thessalonians 5:2, "For you yourselves have accurate [or perfect] knowledge about the day of the Lord." In other words, Paul is saying he had already given them full, exact information about the events that would happen during the Day of the Lord.

But it is interesting that even though they had perfect, accurate knowledge about the Day of the Lord, they were ignorant about the Rapture. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul tells them he does not want them to remain ignorant about the Rapture. Well, if they had perfect or accurate knowledge about the Day of the Lord but they were ignorant about the Rapture, then the Rapture must not be a part of the Day of the Lord or they would have known about it. So first, Paul writes about the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, then he changes topics and writes Chapter 5 to calm their fears about the Day of the Lord. In doing so, he indicates that the Rapture of the Church will take place before the Day of the Lord starts. Since the Rapture is not part of the Day of the Lord, and since the Day of the Lord concludes with Christ?s returning to earth in judgment, the two events, the Rapture and the Second Coming, must be separate events.



The Day of the Lord is also mentioned as the Day of Christ in the King James within 2 Thessalonians 2. That time is marked by the middle of the Tribulation when the falling away of the saints takes place and the Antichrist shows himself to be God within the Jewish temple (i.e. the Abomination of Desolations). The Day of the Lord also lines up with sixth seal. Both events have blood moons and black dark skies. In other words, the Day of the Lord is a period of time. It is the the last half of the Tribulation which is a part of the Great Tribulation (that would include the killing of the saints by their refusing to take the Mark). The 6th seal is an answer of vengeance from the saints with the 5th seal in them crying out for justice (Because they were martyred by the Antichrist).


Source used for the reply on the transition made between 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Thessalonians 5:
Rapture Watch - a global end times prophecy resource.

Postrib is a theory pulling verses to it's end to prove it's supposed validity.
Pretrib can be the same.However,the verses supporting pretrib add at least 4 dimensions destroying the possibility of postrib.(postrib literally CAN NOT BE)
Add to this the universal twisting of Mat24;31 and the horrible butcher job of mat 25 and rev 20 by postrib adherants and the debate is over for any honest bible student.

 

[AtonedFor]

Just about every Spirit-filled BAC on Internet radio has claimed to have heard from the Lord
... that Christians will be going through the great tribulation of the antichrist.

These people have been God's watchmen for many years
and have been trying to warn people about what is coming
re: many things, not just about the antichrist!

Among these warnings is the incredibly horrible state of the churches,
which is talked about in the thread ...
"You really NEED to prayerfully consider getting out of your church!"

Note: the Internet, and Internet radio, are completely UNCENSORED.
If you desire to get the Truth about whatever, I suggest you go there for it!

P.S. If you desire to find out who "Spirit-filled" refers to, do some googling.

 

[Markum1972]

No,it does not.
You are leaving out any possibility of "2 comings"
As I have said,leave out the other side and Poof! Postrib is indesputable.

Two comings? Two days of the Lord? What you speak of is part of the great falling away; departure from the faith. Study to show yourself approved that the promise of God not be a mystery to you.

Awake!

2 Thessalonians 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him;
2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand;
3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
4 he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God.