Why do Atheists Bother?

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T_Laurich

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God has not been proven, otherwise, he would be proven. The Nile has not dried up as prophecy says, Tyre was not destroyed entirely as prophecy says, Tyre was seiged and captured by Alexander (not what prophecy says), there is more than one failed prophecy on that list (yet you keep rattling on about one), if a thing is subjective it cannot be objective, Logos means factual information and logos is not the same as pathos. What you asserted originally wasn't even pathos. We were talking about your subjective decision to believe in God. That isn't pathos, it's subjective personal choice. As for correctness, pathos (appeal to emotions) cant be correct, nor can it be incorrect anyway. It is nothing but an appeal to emotion.

Learn the difference between logos, pathos and ethos.
Apologetics Press - Tyre in Prophecy

Dude after you read this page we will continue, your blatant ignorance to defend a lie is making me not want to converse anymore...


In a debate it is a search for truth, when you continue to lie, it defeats the purpose... So PLEASE BE WILLING TO CORRECT YOURSELF WHEN YOU MAKE A MISTAKE!
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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I wasn't making it an issue. I merely mentioned it in response to Nl's critique of the poster campaign.
I wasn't intending to come across angry, just letting you know that there are many throughout Christianity that are well aware of this fact.



Do you have a issue with people being well informed when it comes to matters of faith?
No, but I am 37 years old, I have been informed enough:). I do realize that everyone hearing the sermon is not 37, but it does get a little old. And besides, they make a big deal about it (preachers, that is) and I think that they are missing the point (or making a bigger deal out of a small issue.



On a side note, I think it's kind of humorous (just a little) that you like Christmas Carols and most of them drive me to the point of insanity. I never really cared a whole lot for them to begin with, but I stocked groceries for almost a decade and, as you know, grocery stores play Christmas music starting around Thanksgiving....it got very, very, very, old. They have about 10-15 songs that are sung by 50 different people. They would occasionally play songs other than the standard. Anyway, rarely do I voluntarily listen to Christmas music.
 
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Apologetics Press - Tyre in Prophecy

Dude after you read this page we will continue, your blatant ignorance to defend a lie is making me not want to converse anymore...


In a debate it is a search for truth, when you continue to lie, it defeats the purpose... So PLEASE BE WILLING TO CORRECT YOURSELF WHEN YOU MAKE A MISTAKE!
Euggh. Does the prophecy say Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre, that it would be a barren rock, never be rebuilt and cease to exist? And did Nebuchadnezzar not fail to destroy the city, is it not still occupied, and has it not been built upon? People live in Tyre, mainland AND island. It's a UNESCO site. Just look it up, man!
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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Euggh. Does the prophecy say Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre, that it would be a barren rock, never be rebuilt and cease to exist? And did Nebuchadnezzar not fail to destroy the city, is it not still occupied, and has it not been built upon? People live in Tyre, mainland AND island. It's a UNESCO site. Just look it up, man!
READ THE LINK!
 

T_Laurich

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I already have, it's BS. Does Tyre exist? Yes. Therefore is the prophecy false? Yes.
READ THE PASSAGE IF YOU ARE GOING TO DEBATE!

IS THE MAINLAND CONSIDERED TYRE IN ANCIENT TIMES!!! NO!!!!
For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword;


NOTICE IT SAYS SETTLEMENTS ON THE MAINLAND!
Imagine there was a prophecy that said "And I will destroy persia." and today Iraq gets nuked... You would argue, BUT PERSIA WAS NEVER DESTROYED HAHAHAH!

I am saying, stop being a moron and interpret the verse based upon the time it was written, there was no Iraq back then, it was called Persia all they did was rename the country.



It is the same thing with this, Tyre was the Island, as the population grew they made settlements on the shore (because an island can only hold so much).
Today we call it Tyre, big deal, the island THE REAL TYRE has never been rebuilt.
 
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didymos

Guest
I hate it when people start yelling in caps, especially in the morning. :(
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
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I hate it when people start yelling in caps, especially in the morning. :(
I hate when you're in a debate and the person keeps refusing to be intellectually honest... Because they make me yell in caps right before my bed time...
 
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didymos

Guest
I never use caps... even in heated arguments. I rarely have those anyway;
they take up too much of my time.
 
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didymos

Guest
A gentle answer turns away wrath,
but a harsh word stirs up anger.

(Proverbs 15:1 /NIV)
 
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didymos

Guest
Honestly, I use caps and bold to point out what I want the person to read... I don't use it as a form of yelling (sometimes).

It goes as follows,
Underline= main idea
Bold= main idea+ read this twice, make sure you read it.
caps= I want to get this idea too you.

All 3 means I am mad.... (yelling):)
I'm glad you're never in any of the chatrooms then. ;)


Personally I think a christian should restrain himself, even when he feels he's right (James 3:6).
 
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Siberian_Khatru

Guest
Knowing christmas is coming is unrelated to people buying gifts. Those are two seperate things. But even that is not something you know for certain. It could be that some massive meteor hits earth and wipes out all civilization, and no one is around to celebrate christmas.
Talk about "separate things." :) This meteor example is irrelevant to the point. My knowing that Christmas day is near is not to say I know that it will come to pass. You have taken my example a bit out of context.

The type of foreknowledge that an omniscient god would have is a complete and perfect knowledge of all events past, present and future. Not the type of "know" that a human has, which is really just a reasonal conclusion or something that is very likely. I maintain that if something is known for a fact by an amniscient being, then that event is 100% going to happen.
And I'm afraid that I must maintain that you continue to misrepresent things and, now, appear to be arguing semantics, as well as are regurgitating some obvious points.

If there is only one possible outcome, and it is already known by an omniscient being, you have no choice in the matter. Whatever is going to happen will happen, and it could never have happened any other way.
The trouble here is that I believe I understand the underlying thought you're posing; that if there is no true spontaneity from moment to moment in our choices, but rather, spontaneity is not only predicted, it's foreseen, then nothing is truly spontaneous and, therefore, there can exist no free will (something to that affect; it's late, so I'm not exactly sharp nor eloquent right now). My defense stands; foreknowledge in and of itself does not subtract from free will. It exists in a separate tense. We may need to concede to the impasse in each others' reasoning on this (agree to disagree).
 
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How and why would natural selection produce such patterns and shapes and colors as are seen on this hummingbird?

Natural selection is a euphemism for a process of early elimination. Natural selection doesn't create anything.

"Survival of the fittest" would be unaffected by such patterns and shapes and colors.

View attachment 93389

Source: Hummingbird closeup - Imgur


Q. Why would random mutation produce such a detailed pattern of design?


A. It wouldn't. Neither does natural selection provide an explanation for creating and sustaining such a refined pattern of texture, shape and color.
Here is some more information indicating that random mutations in breeding stock of domesticated birds produces more genes for feather diversity than seen even in wild bird populations. According to this researcher domesticated birds have about ten times the number of genes controlling feather appearance than do wild birds. In other words these genes appeared during domestication.

The Avian Tree of Life | Quirks & Quarks with Bob McDonald | CBC Radio

You will find the audio clip at the above link.
 
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By the way Nl, did you find out if this is a male hummingbird?

That link above is from the CBC science radio show called Quirks and Quarks. The program aired on Saturday. When I heard that the number of genes in birds controlling feather appearance has actually increased in domesticated birds, I thought 'Wow!' That is exactly what we were talking about.
 
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Objective morality is the idea that a certain system of ethics or set of moral judgments is not just true according to a person's subjective opinion, but factually true. Proponents of this theory would argue that a statement like "Murder is wrong" can be as objectively true as "1 + 1 = 2.



You keep jumping between truth and reality. My point was, you are judging morality based upon appeal to majority or appeal to self, you argue against this by retorting that you do not believe in an "objective morality", which is fine. But then you contradict yourself, and say that your argument is based off of an appeal to majority.

You must understand, just because you use fancy rhetoric to say you are appealing to majority does not make you more correct...

The problem is what I am getting out is the only reason you know these things is because society knows these things... This is extremely scary considering that society in 1939 Nazi Germany was completely different then today, but according to your own reasoning (appeal to majority) it would be correct to gas Jews in that society.


I think therefor I am is a logical fallacy, it is begging the question, appeal to self, and circular reasoning... The saying "I do not exist" has the exact same fallacies, it is begging the question, appeal to self, and circular reasoning.
You are just ignoring my entire explanation and again pretending that i am talking about objective morals when i am not. I am not appealing to majority. I am telling you that regardless of whether free will exists, you will deal with consequences of what society considers immoral or moral. I am not saying there is an objective correct or incorrect answer. I am saying that whatever society thinks is wrong (subjective) they will punich people for doing. This is just a true statement. It is not an appeal to anything. I am not making any argument for what is moral or immoral. I am stating the obvious, but for some reason you have some issue with this.
 
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If you had never experienced Christ, as I have not, then how would you feel? Remember, I did try very hard to believe, I have pointed this out, but God never reached out to me. The resulting lack of belief is what you see now.

Also, I have no interest in destroying your belief in God. I would only seek to turn you to the light of science.



Thank you for the sentiment. :)
Your search to gain faith is very touching and I will pray for you that God does indeed touch you in a way whereby you may receive the gift of faith and rejoice. Please never lose hope, for I believe that people who do not believe in Jesus but at least hope He is who He says He is shall indeed receive His grace. Faith, hope and love, the greatest of these is love -- that being said, there is power in having hope.
 

T_Laurich

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Mar 24, 2013
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You are just ignoring my entire explanation and again pretending that i am talking about objective morals when i am not. I am not appealing to majority. I am telling you that regardless of whether free will exists, you will deal with consequences of what society considers immoral or moral. I am not saying there is an objective correct or incorrect answer. I am saying that whatever society thinks is wrong (subjective) they will punich people for doing. This is just a true statement. It is not an appeal to anything. I am not making any argument for what is moral or immoral. I am stating the obvious, but for some reason you have some issue with this.
Which is appeal to majority, and appeal to self...


Let me put it this way, if your philosophy is correct, how do we judge people in your world view?
(Regardless of whether or not free-will exists)



According to your own words we appeal to majority, or appeal to self...

For instance, if I was to steal, the only wrong I have committed is if you don't like it. If I steal from you, and you don't think stealing is wrong, then I have committed no wrong. However, if I steal from you and you believe stealing is wrong, I have now committed a wrong...

The same goes with society, if I steal from a group of people, and majority think that there was no wrong, then there was no wrong... If I steal from the same group and they think I did commit a wrong, then I did...

The first is appeal to self, the second is appeal to majority.

If your philosophy was objective, you could not have appeal to majority or appeal to self, you would only appeal to the truth that is morality. However, since you are subjective you must appeal to some finite and flawed person or persons in order to paradigm what will get you most ahead in life.

I am not, and have not confused subjective and objective.
Subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
Objective: not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

Let's say morality is objective, if you steal from me, and the objective morality is stealing is wrong, no matter what I say you have committed a crime.
If you steal from a group of people, no matter what they say, it is a crime...

Here is a problem I would like you to address, lets say the majority of the earth is wanting to commit genocide on the non-majority. Is this wrong or right?

The first question is, are you in the majority or non-majority, if you are in the majority your subjective morality would say that it is completely correct. If you are in the minority you would say it is not correct. If you are judging based upon society you would also say that genocide is correct...

Can you explain if your moral view point protects all people equally? In other words disprove what I just said. This is why I have an issue with your philosophy, Nazi Germany thought the same way, Stalin thought the same way, every communist that has ever lived thought the same way...
 
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Here is a problem I would like you to address, lets say the majority of the earth is wanting to commit genocide on the non-majority. Is this wrong or right?

The first question is, are you in the majority or non-majority, if you are in the majority your subjective morality would say that it is completely correct. If you are in the minority you would say it is not correct. If you are judging based upon society you would also say that genocide is correct...

Can you explain if your moral view point protects all people equally? In other words disprove what I just said. This is why I have an issue with your philosophy, Nazi Germany thought the same way, Stalin thought the same way, every communist that has ever lived thought the same way...
That is the entire point of subjectivity. It is not a matter of what is universally correct or incorrect. First of all, Just because you are in the majority doesn't mean you would want to wipe out the minority. Most people would agree that, based on the fact that society works better when everyone cooperates, and this is best achieved under sircumstances when suffering is minimized, that it would be more benificial to not cause suffering. IF it was the case that every single member of the majority thought it was okay to commit genocide, that would not make it objectively okay, because there is no objectively okay. It would mean that they see it as moral. The minority would see it as immoral. It is entirely subjective. You and I probably both agree that based on what we consider moral, we both think it is immoral.
People who think genocide is okay are, in my opinion, immoral. I do not think that there is any objective morality that makes it somehow factually immoral because I see morality as completely subjective. This matters none at all though, when we are speaking pragmatically. At a pragmatic level, all we are dealing with is the actions and consequences. If the majority of people regard stealing as immoral, you will likely be punished for stealing. This does not change if stealing is objectively immoral. This is just demonstrably what happens.

"Let's say morality is objective, if you steal from me, and the objective morality is stealing is wrong, no matter what I say you have committed a crime.If you steal from a group of people, no matter what they say, it is a crime..."
If the evidence of morality being objective is that everyone agrees, then morality is demonstrably NOT objective. There are cultures which regard some things as immoral where other cultures do not. Even people within the same culture disagree on morals. As I said, you can usually argue for whther something is productive or unproductive, benifical or a hinderance, etc. using reason and logic. This doesn't make morality objective.

Another thing I think you misundestand is that an individual does not look at a society and determine that their morals are the correct morals. A person can have different morals than their society does. When you talk about a societal morality, all you are getting from it is what that society thinks is moral. It may agree or disagree with your individual morals.
If you are judging based upon society you would also say that genocide is correct...

You don't judge whether morals are correct based on society. You can only determine what they deem moral and either agree or disagree. Saying that it is correct or not would be considering it objectively, which I don't do.
 
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Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Just to ward off confusion let me say I was only responding to Laurich's proposition that my sense of free will was an illusion. What better illusion was there than the Matrix? :)


My request that Laurich prove he had freewill was really only a counterpoint to his request to prove that I don't have it. I am really not much interested in the debate. I will have to go out and refill the gas tank in my car sometime this weekend. It is of no real importance when I do it, only that I do. I have no reason to think that the timing of this event is anyway determined by events within my brain that are beyond my control. I will do it when I choose. If you have no way of arguing that the timing is in someway beyond my control then why argue it at all?

People often don't like the idea that we are hardwired with instincts by evolution in ways similar to other animals, and I suppose this is largely because they (Christians especially) don't like the idea that we are animals. I think we are (no, I know we are) animals, and I think some of our actions are likely determined to some extent by that wiring. Animals that have more developed brains are less dependent on that wiring for their survival than are lesser brained critters, but it is there nonetheless. If I see you yawn, I yawn. In fact if I see a chimp yawn I will yawn. It is hardwired – why is debatable. The drive to mate is also hardwired by evolution, but in us, and perhaps in apes as well, the way we choose to release those urges is governed largely by free will. If you are a cricket you likely don't have much choice – you Just Do It, as the Niki slogan says.
"I have no reason to think that the timing of this event is anyway determined by events within my brain that are beyond my control."

Well, the 'you' that is in control is your brain, is it not? Since your brain is deterministic, the 'you' that thinks it is in control is also deterministic.




"If you have no way of arguing that the timing is in someway beyond my control then why argue it at all?"

I can't prove we have free will... using a scientific approach, I can demonstrate that free will is impossible.
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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That is the entire point of subjectivity. It is not a matter of what is universally correct or incorrect. First of all, Just because you are in the majority doesn't mean you would want to wipe out the minority. Most people would agree that, based on the fact that society works better when everyone cooperates, and this is best achieved under sircumstances when suffering is minimized, that it would be more benificial to not cause suffering. IF it was the case that every single member of the majority thought it was okay to commit genocide, that would not make it objectively okay, because there is no objectively okay. It would mean that they see it as moral. The minority would see it as immoral. It is entirely subjective. You and I probably both agree that based on what we consider moral, we both think it is immoral.
People who think genocide is okay are, in my opinion, immoral. I do not think that there is any objective morality that makes it somehow factually immoral because I see morality as completely subjective. This matters none at all though, when we are speaking pragmatically. At a pragmatic level, all we are dealing with is the actions and consequences. If the majority of people regard stealing as immoral, you will likely be punished for stealing. This does not change if stealing is objectively immoral. This is just demonstrably what happens.

"Let's say morality is objective, if you steal from me, and the objective morality is stealing is wrong, no matter what I say you have committed a crime.If you steal from a group of people, no matter what they say, it is a crime..."
If the evidence of morality being objective is that everyone agrees, then morality is demonstrably NOT objective. There are cultures which regard some things as immoral where other cultures do not. Even people within the same culture disagree on morals. As I said, you can usually argue for whther something is productive or unproductive, benifical or a hinderance, etc. using reason and logic. This doesn't make morality objective.

Another thing I think you misundestand is that an individual does not look at a society and determine that their morals are the correct morals. A person can have different morals than their society does. When you talk about a societal morality, all you are getting from it is what that society thinks is moral. It may agree or disagree with your individual morals.

You don't judge whether morals are correct based on society. You can only determine what they deem moral and either agree or disagree. Saying that it is correct or not would be considering it objectively, which I don't do.
Let me take your retort in sections so can address the many points you have made... I will re-quote what I address and underline it in the original quote...

Firstly
Just because you are in the majority doesn't mean you would want to wipe out the minority.
This is a strawman, I asked you to address the problem given to you as a hypothetical and instead you say assume it will never happen therefore it does not need addressing, and when you do poke at the problem, you insinuate that I am confusing objective and subjective... Let me re-quote what I said. "Here is a problem I would like you to address, lets say the majority of the earth is wanting to commit genocide on the non-majority. Is this wrong or right?

The first question is, are you in the majority or non-majority, if you are in the majority your subjective morality would say that it is completely correct. If you are in the minority you would say it is not correct. If you are judging based upon society you would also say that genocide is correct...
"
So why do you say
IF it was the case that every single member of the majority thought it was okay to commit genocide, that would not make it objectively okay, because there is no objectively okay. It would mean that they see it as moral. The minority would see it as immoral. It is entirely subjective.
I never said it would be objective, I very clearly stated that it was subjective, and I defined my terms as well to try to prevent this confusion that you are so prone to get into.... I will redefine the terms as to hope I can prevent this confusion for the third time.
Objective: not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
Subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
Can I please ask for future reference that you read my post twice before commenting? I think you might have skimmed over my post a little too quickly...



I do not think that there is any objective morality that makes it somehow factually immoral because I see morality as completely subjective. This matters none at all though, when we are speaking pragmatically. At a pragmatic level, all we are dealing with is the actions and consequences. If the majority of people regard stealing as immoral, you will likely be punished for stealing. This does not change if stealing is objectively immoral. This is just demonstrably what happens.
First off, you need to define pragmatic for me, because pragmatic in the English language means: a philosophical movement or system having various forms, but generally stressing practical consequences as constituting the essential criterion in determining meaning, truth, or value.

I find it funny that you just said, that it does not matter if morality is based upon truth or feelings because you are pragmatic...


But to counter you, yes it does change... Let's take for instance witch craft... There are tribes in Africa that kill albino's because they say their skin contains magical powers to protect them from aids... In their subjective morality, they deem this as correct, they see no problems with it. Now what are the consequences of this subjective action?
Firstly, there is no information to say the person was wrong for killing the albino.
Secondly, if you are to say the person is wrong, it does not matter because that person says it is correct (appeal to self) and his society says it is correct (appeal to majority)

Now lets say there is objective morality, and the person kills the albino for magical powers to protect him from aids.
First an innocent person died.
Second the guilty party will and should be tried.
Thirdly it influences and attributes to further killings, so there has to be measures taken to prevent this.

As you can see in a pragmatic view, you are wrong.

If the evidence of morality being objective is that everyone agrees, then morality is demonstrably NOT objective.
Thank you for saying this, but I never said it would be, I very clearly defined objective as I will again.
Objective: not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.



Another thing I think you misundestand is that an individual does not look at a society and determine that their morals are the correct morals. A person can have different morals than their society does. When you talk about a societal morality, all you are getting from it is what that society thinks is moral. It may agree or disagree with your individual morals.
I never said a person has to agree with society, not once... I will again quote my question for you.
"Here is a problem I would like you to address, lets say the majority of the earth is wanting to commit genocide on the non-majority. Is this wrong or right?

The first question is, are you in the majority or non-majority, if you are in the majority your subjective morality would say that it is completely correct. If you are in the minority you would say it is not correct. If you are judging based upon society you would also say that genocide is correct...
"

Again, do you see anywhere, where I said that a person has to agree with society, or that a person always agrees with society?



You don't judge whether morals are correct based on society. You can only determine what they deem moral and either agree or disagree. Saying that it is correct or not would be considering it objectively, which I don't do.
So your answer as I take it is "NO" to my question?



[video=youtube;XBp8M8M4DMs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBp8M8M4DMs[/video]