Love and Respect.

[Rachel20]

As a generalization men tend to make better leaders than women. Even in today's progressive workplace in corporate America with women reaching high levels of management (even CEO's of major corporations). In light of that, when polled even most women prefer to work under a man rather than a woman. (sorry, I don't have the time to dig up the study, iy was something I read a couple of years ago)

To say that men make better leaders does not place women in a position of inferiority, just a position of difference. To imply that men are somehow superior just because they are better at leading makes about as much sense to me as saying that my neighbor is superior to me just because he's a better mechanic than I am since I am a better painter than he is. God, in His wisdom, gave men the mental and emotional tools to be better leaders, but he also gave women the tools that they need to be better nurturers. Not superior or inferior, just different.

First of all thank you for your honest reply.

It's also nice that you put across that positions of difference does not imply positions of inferiority.

I agree wholeheartedly with that, and in fact I would say that a rich man and a poor man, and an educated human being and uneducated human being are all equal in the eyes of a higher power [be it law or God]

However let me just flesh this out a bit.


I do know the study that you were talking about, which is not a study but basically a survey/public opinion poll by Gallup, which seems to be a consulting company that provides data driven research.

Surveys do not reveal underlying differences as much as they reveal stereotypes and personal views, which in this case is women undermining each other as emotional. (not to mention how competitive it can be even amongst women)

“I just feel that men are more flexible and less emotional than women,” one secretary said, while another described women lawyers as “too emotional and demeaning.” The stereotype that women are too emotional goes back hundreds of years.


Also, women managers have also been put under pressure to perform better than their male counterparts to be considered just as good. (This is called the "proof standard", as I've heard some women describe it)

Though over the years, things have been looking up for women.

Even so, the situation is that there are fewer women in positions at the top. There are 14 percent of women as top positions in Fortune 500 companies, quite a number of them in technology.

Companies like Cisco, Yahoo, Google , Facebook have a sizable number in chief leadership and technology roles.

I don't consider this surprising, seeing that women have had to face more difficulties working, than a man would have to. As mentioned in another thread by me, many women do not have as long-lasting careers as men owing to the fact that many of them leave to take care of their families.
Pregnancy also sees women taking a backseat in high pressure jobs. These are some of the factors leading to a poor showing of women in top roles.

Leadership involves the following skills, that come to the top of my head right now, maybe there will be more -


* Ability to make good decisions [this would include critical and lateral thinking]
* Ability to motivate people
* Ability to respond well to stress
* Ability to multi task (both as manager and worker)
* Ability to access and apply usage of resources


If men were inherently better leaders, it would mean that women lack some of these basic skills including that of thinking.

While in no means would it make women inferior human beings, it still means that they lack these qualities. It still makes them inferior in terms of brain capacities and brain power.

However as shown by women in recent times in the companies mentioned, given opportunity, given the same playing ground, women have succeeded and moved on to top positions in the corporate field.

So I do not agree with you on this, that men have better emotional and mental tools to become better leaders, solely by the proof of the real world as well as for the fact that Biblically too, I do not see this anywhere.

The Bible does say women are the "weaker vessel" and that husbands should honour their wives due to this. [1 Peter 3:7]


However no where does it say a man has more wisdom or more intellect or capacity than a woman. Time and again, God has said He gives wisdom generously to all who ask [James 1:5] and people are called to seek wisdom.

Physically, yes women are weaker, I do agree, but there have been plenty of women who are quite strong.

Also pure brute strength and brawn has never been the sole determining factor to ever win a fight ( and in this day and age with technology, physical strength is also not the critical factor to being successful.)


So therefore I do not concur with you in the light of all this.

 

[Mitspa]

To be quite frank, while I appreciate the replies and the thinking, many of the posts that I have come across just seem to be derived from popular logic. I am not completely convinced.


The idea that men have a special need to be respected owing to the fact that they would be leaders in the units of family, comes from 1 Timothy 3, where the roles of overseers of the church is discussed.

" for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?"

Does this really conclude that men deserve more respect? ( This is quite an interesting study really, about men and women in the Bible and their roles. )

This is a good passage.

1 Corinthians 11:3-8

But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For man is not from woman, but woman from man. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.



While most women have no issue about the passages with submission to the husband, how many women continue to cover their heads while in worship?

The practice of this has left most churches. It's also impractical to cover your head all the time, when we're called to "pray without ceasing"
Also, head coverings and other practices are indicative of Islamic practices that are almost universally condemned for it's regressive depictions of women.

We, as the Church have sometimes proudly worn the title of being progressive towards women, and head coverings seem to be a massive step back.

Personally, having discussed with a few Christian men, I've noticed that their view on the head covering is also to put it across in a the prism of cultural shifts.


We have no problem in expressing differences between men and women, however if we dig deeper, can we say that men make better leaders?

To admit this would imply an inferiority in the other gender (women) as being not so able in roles of leadership.

I'll even go a step further , and ask do we believe that women are inferior to men? How would you take note of Biblical passages wherein women are under the authority of men , either husbands or fathers? They could cancel their vows and a rapist would marry his victim, that he would never be allowed to divorce?

How about Ecclesiastes 7:28

"while I was still searching but not finding-- I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all."


These are good questions that I am throwing at some of you. I have been working on my understanding of all this, but I am interested to know the opinions of many of you "regulars"


If you admit that women are lesser than men, that would be interesting. If you don't , I want to see people's reasonings.

I have often wondered at these passages of scripture? I believe women are stronger in some ways than men and that a Godly man can have a boldness for the truth that I have not seen in women? I also know from my studies that the epistles where written to a certain time and culture and goes out of the way to not upset the culture of that day through carnal things. Slavery is not really challenged, although anyone who knows God and knows the gospel, understands that God is a God of liberty and not of bondage. What God did not want was the gospel to become a social movement about social issues but He wanted to move in the lives of His people through His Spirit and truth, to set them free by His Own hand as it where..."I will be there God and they shall be My People".. A woman who walks with God will be honored by God and man, and if need be God will make her a judge over His people (just as Debora).... I still don't have it all together on this issue, but I hope to stay in a teachable place and if God decides that He will raise up another Debora...I hope I have enough sense to honor her?

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

While most women have no issue about the passages with submission to the husband, how many women continue to cover their heads while in worship?

Respecting a husband - and loving a wife - are moral instructions that don't ever change. Head coverings are a ceremonial instruction. The head covering by itself doesn't have any meaning. The meaning was stemmed from the reason they were worn. Respect and love have meaning all by themselves. This is the difference between the two, in my view.

(Just wanted to add that I definitely don't believe that women are inferior to men. Women are much better at many things than men. But women and men are different, and I see God making them each for different purposes.)

 

[JustAnotherUser]

I think there needs to be mutual grounds and even amounts of respect and love. Otherwise, if one receives more than the other then what good is that? Anyone can say they love you, but the respect and dignity has to talk through its actions in order for such love to work.

That's just me.

 

[Lynx]

Is it just me or is this thread turning into a Bible Discussions thread? I'm still amazed that the hard-line debaters haven't yet been drawn to this thread like a shark to blood.

(Don't you DARE tell them over in the Bible Discussion forum that this thread is here...)

 

[Loveneverfails]

Is it just me or is this thread turning into a Bible Discussions thread? I'm still amazed that the hard-line debaters haven't yet been drawn to this thread like a shark to blood.

(Don't you DARE tell them over in the Bible Discussion forum that this thread is here...)

Nah, I'm glad we can discuss things like this in this forum. And don't worry, this is nothing like threads over in the bible discussion forum...no one has bitten off anyone else's head - yet.

 

[Lynx]

That's why I said don't tell anyone from there this thread is here. I like my head where it is and I want to keep it.

 

[Hoffco]

To have a good marriage and a good family Only ONE can be the Boss? Who is to obey the other? OBVIOUSLY, the HUSBAND is the the BOSS and the WIFE must obey Him. The respect and submission to the needs of the others is key also; But, The husband is the boss. The children must know, that DAD is the boss. Love to all, but, in a good marriage, the children must know that Mom and Dad put themselves above the children. And that both parents will sacrifice for the whole family. The children will learn to love respect and sacrifice for each other, but they also will learn, not to trust and obey just anyone they meet. If the children are too naive, they will be in danger of being abuse by others. Hoffco

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

Is it just me or is this thread turning into a Bible Discussions thread?

I cringe whenever I hear anyone say something like this, because it can be such a self-fulfilling prophesy (aside from being provocative). People are peacefully discussing scripture and doctrine, one person says "wow, this is starting to sound like the Bible forum!" and immediately everyone starts thinking of the discussion like a battle in the making. It is self-defeating.

We can and SHOULD see ourselves and our threads as having the ability and expectation of spiritual maturity and love between members.

 

[psychomom]

hey, Rachel.

since many of the verses we're talking about relate to marriage,
i don't think God is saying much other than, this is how marriages should be.

i guess my dad was, er, progressive? he raised 4 daughters and never made us feel
'less than' because we weren't boys. (still aren't...)
we were taught without words that we were capable and smart.
and that he wasn't sad he had no sons...as if to say we weren't enough.
and i have 5 daughters who i hope know the same things.

that said, i do believe that--as a rule--God made men better at some things,
just as He made women better at different types of things--as a general rule.
(ymmv)
our strengths and weaknesses seem to achieve a balance...a completeness.

as it relates to family life, you will hear me tell young women their husbands need their respect.
maybe it's because i learned it too late in life, and a lot could have been avoided had i known it sooner?

do you think it's true that--as a rule--men tend to be intellectual responders,
while women tend to be emotional responders?

 

[GaryA]

Please see this post.

More later...?

 

[Tintin]

I cringe whenever I hear anyone say something like this, because it can be such a self-fulfilling prophesy (aside from being provocative). People are peacefully discussing scripture and doctrine, one person says "wow, this is starting to sound like the Bible forum!" and immediately everyone starts thinking of the discussion like a battle in the making. It is self-defeating.

We can and SHOULD see ourselves and our threads as having the ability and expectation of spiritual maturity and love between members.

Ugh! I totally agree!

 

[Rachel20]

Please see this post.

More later...?

Hi. I appreciate the fact you replied, but I just want to reiterate that this thread is not the same as the one in which you replied to.


I understand that the context of the thread was whether respect had to be earned by a husband..however this thread is not about whether or not it should.


We all agree here that respect must be given to the husband etc.

This thread however states claiming that men have a special need for it above women is not justifiable and that women deserve respect too. Even in context of marriages.

Just as much as men deserve love.


Thanks again for the reply.

 

[Mitspa]

Hi. I appreciate the fact you replied, but I just want to reiterate that this thread is not the same as the one in which you replied to.


I understand that the context of the thread was whether respect had to be earned by a husband..however this thread is not about whether or not it should.


We all agree here that respect must be given to the husband etc.

This thread however states claiming that men have a special need for it above women is not justifiable and that women deserve respect too. Even in context of marriages.

Just as much as men deserve love.


Thanks again for the reply.

So your not sold on the idea that man have a special need for respect, maybe above that of a woman? Think about how many people act in the world when these things are not satisfied in people? What do we sometimes see? Do we not see men doing silly things to gain respect? Do we not see women do (silly) things to gain attention and love....

 

[Rachel20]

hey, Rachel.

since many of the verses we're talking about relate to marriage,
i don't think God is saying much other than, this is how marriages should be.

i guess my dad was, er, progressive? he raised 4 daughters and never made us feel
'less than' because we weren't boys. (still aren't...)
we were taught without words that we were capable and smart.
and that he wasn't sad he had no sons...as if to say we weren't enough.
and i have 5 daughters who i hope know the same things.

that said, i do believe that--as a rule--God made men better at some things,
just as He made women better at different types of things--as a general rule.
(ymmv)
our strengths and weaknesses seem to achieve a balance...a completeness.

as it relates to family life, you will hear me tell young women their husbands need their respect.
maybe it's because i learned it too late in life, and a lot could have been avoided had i known it sooner?

do you think it's true that--as a rule--men tend to be intellectual responders,
while women tend to be emotional responders?

Hi Ellie!

I am so heartened to see you reply and very glad too. My one major dilemma in deciding on which forum to post in has always been based on who would reply.


I hope you post here more often (and on all my threads preferably! JK I love you and I love reading your posts! Your posts always show so much kindness, compassion and wisdom. )


It's very wonderful knowing that you were raised in a progressive manner in an equal setting.


However I do believe that we all get bogged down by stereotypes, not just from the home but an extension to it at school as well.
I believe we all have different talents but that is not always limited to a gender.

Some of the stereotypes that I have seen that were definitely tiny at that point of time but lead on to become bigger things.

In my own life, I ended up giving up medical school just because I overheard a teacher and a couple of boys in discussion about how most girls took up biology instead of subjects like math.

Frankly I was good at both of these subjects but I felt like I had to prove myself to the rest of the world. This of course was in part the product of my pride. I didn't have to prove anything to anyone.

Sometimes I do have a regret now that if I had continued on to medical school, would I have been more useful to society than I am right now?

I know God has plans for all of us and everything works out according to His purposes but just words from people propagating such stereotypes can be very hurtful.

When I used to help out with tutoring children, for subjects like math and science, I also noticed that many of the children themselves had this notion that "boys are better at math and science"

This disturbed me because when taught in the right manner, when explained the same concepts both genders were able to solve problems and arrive at solutions.

Yes, I do believe that men and women are different. Insofar as physical attributes like strength come into picture. However that does not take away the fact that both of them are human beings.

Both of them are driven by the same human tendencies.


I do believe that men are the head of women in families. They deserve honour and respect from their wives, because God has specified it to be so.

Also women, as wives, do need honour as well, as the weaker vessel. I see it as a partnership of equality and love and respect given equally.

Your question

do you think it's true that--as a rule--men tend to be intellectual responders,
while women tend to be emotional responders?



No I do not think so that men are intellectual responders or women emotional ones. I do believe both are equally driven by emotion and intellect.

I would also agree with you that women do face a lot of mood swings owing to our hormonal makeup however I think that we can all rise above that.

For the last 80 years or so, women have finally been able to make a way into the workplace and honestly if anyone cannot respect a woman for all her capabilities despite some even debilitating issues, then they don't deserve such a wife.

When we allow people into our lives, we offer them a privilege and if someone cannot respect that or see the honour in it, then they certainly don't deserve to be a part of it.

 

[Rachel20]

So your not sold on the idea that man have a special need for respect, maybe above that of a woman? Think about how many people act in the world when these things are not satisfied in people? What do we sometimes see? Do we not see men doing silly things to gain respect? Do we not see women do (silly) things to gain attention and love....

Actually, I really liked Reborn's post here where he quoted Matthew Henry.


"The woman was made of a rib out of the side of Adam; not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be beloved."

-Matthew Henry



When God created woman, the Hebrew word used was Ezer Kenegdo

The word ezer has been used 21 times in the Bible, also referring to God, a superior help.

The Hebrew word Azar/Ezer is translated as help and the word Kenegdo as Meet. The meaning of Ezer is to protect or Aid. Kenegdo is a counterpart, equal and sometimes translated as against.

God is referred to as Ezer 17 times in scripture; usually in a time of great need or protection. The term Ezer is also used when referring to military assistance.

In Genesis 2:18, God calls woman an ezer kenegdo, a "helper against him."

The Jewish commentator Rashi takes the term literally as so:

"If he [Adam] is worthy, [she will be] a help [ezer]. If he is not worthy [she will be] against him [kenegdo] for strife."

This Jewish study also described man and woman facing each other with arms raised holding an arch between them, giving a picture of equal responsibility


--[references from the internet]

 

[1still_waters]

People are trying to read psychological need into this text.
Men have a special need for respect?
Women have a special need for love?

I don't think this is about psychological need
I think it's more about roles.

This text is about the roles in marriage.
Marriage mirrors Christ and the church.

32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

Cease thinking psychologic need.
Start thinking role playing.

The Greek word for respect in that passage is phobeō.


Like many words, it has more than one meaning.
We can’t transfer all meanings of that word into the context.
That would be illegitimate totality transfer.


Given the context, I think this meaning for the Greek word fits.

to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience

In my opinion, respect has the sense of deference for the wife.
She is to defer to her husband, because her role as wife mirrors the role of the church.
The church defers to Christ's leadership.

Not because he psychologically NEEDS it, but because that's our role as the church.

Wives don't defer as some sort of soulless robotic animal.
Wives defer because that's their role.

The man loves because that's his role.

Of course they both have to love and respect, but in the Ephesians context, Paul is spelling out specific roles for marriage.

Think role, not psychological need.

 

[Mitspa]

Actually, I really liked Reborn's post here where he quoted Matthew Henry.


"The woman was made of a rib out of the side of Adam; not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be beloved."

-Matthew Henry



When God created woman, the Hebrew word used was Ezer Kenegdo

The word ezer has been used 21 times in the Bible, also referring to God, a superior help.

The Hebrew word Azar/Ezer is translated as help and the word Kenegdo as Meet. The meaning of Ezer is to protect or Aid. Kenegdo is a counterpart, equal and sometimes translated as against.

God is referred to as Ezer 17 times in scripture; usually in a time of great need or protection. The term Ezer is also used when referring to military assistance.

In Genesis 2:18, God calls woman an ezer kenegdo, a "helper against him."

The Jewish commentator Rashi takes the term literally as so:

"If he [Adam] is worthy, [she will be] a help [ezer]. If he is not worthy [she will be] against him [kenegdo] for strife."

This Jewish study also described man and woman facing each other with arms raised holding an arch between them, giving a picture of equal responsibility


--[references from the internet]

That's good stuff but still wonder if you think you will make sure your husband knows you respect him, because you see that as a man he has that real and honest need... Also do you see yourself as a woman who "needs" to be shown love from your husband in absolute terms?

 

[Angela53510]

Why does anyone have to be the boss? Why can we not have mutual submission, as Paul describes in Eph.5

"submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ." Eph. 5:21

In my home, I have certain gifts and I am the boss in those areas. (Cooking in particular stands out!)

My husband is more practical, fixes the cars, repaints the house, and anything broken. That is what works for us. With money, we both have our own, although it is in both our names. For the big decisions, we talk about them till we are in agreement. If we cannot reach agreement, then we do not buy or use the money for that purpose.

My sister likes to repaint, her husband manages the money. My mom managed the money and fixed things, my Dad worked in the yard and around the house.

So different divisions of labour, based on the gifts and also preferences of the people.

I think defining roles that are realistic is a cause of great strife between married couples. If they both go totally traditional, then it works.

But mutually submitting means we take into account what we do well, and what our spouse does well, and allow the freedom and respect to do it. This does not take away from a wife submitting to her husband, but it also means she is not some Greek or Roman matron, locked up in the back room, or a Jewish woman who basically stayed inside unless there was a chaperon, like in some Muslim countries today. (Saudi Arabia comes to mind!)

The purpose of roles in the Bible, including respect and love was to bring unity in the home, and be a witness to the world around them. Today, that is not the way many marriages are run, and that is not a bad thing.

I have to think of my second son, who is a CFO of his company. His wife is in her last year of residency as a doctor, and he ends up taking the kids to and from daycare, and making the meals, if she has a hard rotation. (Try gynecology/oncology - 6 am till 9 pm daily)

My son is a real he-man, big in the world of sports, playing hockey to pro level. But he understands that he has to help his wife, and respect her career, which he supports totally.

I started the Love and Respect course, which is all the rage right now in some Christian circles. The person doing the videos was pulling things out of context so badly, I had to stop going. I would have been having everyone look up the verses in context, and showing them how wrong he was.

So I guess I believe that mutual submission, love and respect for each other is the way to a happy marriage.

 

[Angela53510]

What??? This isn't the BDF!! Sorry! I got carried away. LOL