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Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam and Eve were clearly shown right and wrong and were made aware of the penalty.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam and Eve were clearly shown right and wrong and were made aware of the penalty.
"Let's begin by asking what religion is. Some say it is a form of belief in God. But that would not fit Zen Buddhism, which does not really believe in God at all. Some say it is belief in the supernatural. But that does not fit Hinduism, which does not believe in a supernatural realm beyond the material world, but only a spiritual reality within the empirical.
What is religion then? It is a set of beliefs that explain what life is all about, who we are, and the most important things that human beings should spend their time doing.
For example, some think that this material world is there is, that we are here by accident and when we die we just rot, and therefore the important thing is to choose to do what makes you happy and not let others impose their beliefs on you.
Notice that though this is not an explicit, "organized" religion, it contains a master narrative, an account about the meaning of life along with a recommendation for how to live based on that account of things. Some call this a "worldview" while others call it a "narrative identity." In either case, it is a set of faith-assumptions about the nature of things. It is an implicit religion.
Broadly understood, faith in some view of the world and human nature informs everyone's life. Everyone lives and operates out of some narrative identity, whether it is thought out and reflected upon or not." - excerpt from Tim Keller, The Reason for God (paragraph breaks and emphasis are my own)
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Our identity is often tied to our religion.
For example, I can remember moving into a new neighborhood after my kindergarten year and the conversation went something like this:
Neighborhood kid #1: I am Scottish.
Neighborhood kid #2: Our family is Dutch.
Me: I am a Catholic.
(Roman Catholicism was my identity at the time)
If we move the conversation ahead to contemporary times and cchat.com, then we have seen a declaration like this:
You are a Christian. I am an atheist.
Some domains have already acted to limit the discussion of religion in the public square. If atheism and belief in evolution can escape being defined as a religion, then it makes it easier to proselytize these ideas in the public square without competition from competing ideas.
"A religion can be judged only on the basis of another religion. You can't evaluate a religion except on the basis of some ethical criteria that in the end amounts to your own religious stance."
What is religion then? It is a set of beliefs that explain what life is all about, who we are, and the most important things that human beings should spend their time doing.
For example, some think that this material world is there is, that we are here by accident and when we die we just rot, and therefore the important thing is to choose to do what makes you happy and not let others impose their beliefs on you.
Notice that though this is not an explicit, "organized" religion, it contains a master narrative, an account about the meaning of life along with a recommendation for how to live based on that account of things. Some call this a "worldview" while others call it a "narrative identity." In either case, it is a set of faith-assumptions about the nature of things. It is an implicit religion.
Broadly understood, faith in some view of the world and human nature informs everyone's life. Everyone lives and operates out of some narrative identity, whether it is thought out and reflected upon or not." - excerpt from Tim Keller, The Reason for God (paragraph breaks and emphasis are my own)
###
Our identity is often tied to our religion.
For example, I can remember moving into a new neighborhood after my kindergarten year and the conversation went something like this:
Neighborhood kid #1: I am Scottish.
Neighborhood kid #2: Our family is Dutch.
Me: I am a Catholic.
(Roman Catholicism was my identity at the time)
If we move the conversation ahead to contemporary times and cchat.com, then we have seen a declaration like this:
You are a Christian. I am an atheist.
Some domains have already acted to limit the discussion of religion in the public square. If atheism and belief in evolution can escape being defined as a religion, then it makes it easier to proselytize these ideas in the public square without competition from competing ideas.
"A religion can be judged only on the basis of another religion. You can't evaluate a religion except on the basis of some ethical criteria that in the end amounts to your own religious stance."
H
I dont think God just "left them alone". I think that Adam and Eve had a relationship with God the way God originally intended....an intimate, trusting, loving, caring relationship. If u completely trust someone, than u are very likely to listen to them if they caution u against something. They would have had no doubt that God wanted what was best for them. No doubt...until the devil came along with his sales pitch of "can God really be trusted?"
I dont think knowing the difference between right and wrong had anything to do with it. It was about trust. It was about believing God for who they had experienced him to be.
As as for what I think God did on the seventh day...I think he rested. Why...what it is you think he did?
What did God instruct us to do on the seventh day?
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Do you suppose that God might be consistent and lovingly taught His children His truths on Sabbath(s)? How many days, weeks or even months went by before the serpent convinced Eve to disobey? The account does not say.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Do you suppose that God might be consistent and lovingly taught His children His truths on Sabbath(s)? How many days, weeks or even months went by before the serpent convinced Eve to disobey? The account does not say.
Again, telling someone who has no knowledge of good and evil that one thing is good and another is evil, and someone who has no idea what death is that they will die, would not mean anything to them. And again, when the serpent told them something contrary to what they had been told by God, they had no possible way to discern that what the snake said was not true. They had no knowledge of the difference between truth and lies because they didn't have any knowledge of good and evil. In a mind where there is no distinction between right and wrong, everything is just the same, the snake telling them that they could eat from the tree would be just the same to them. How could they have possibly known any different if they didn't know right from wrong. For them to not have believed the serpent, they would have had to be thinking "He is wrong, I shouldn't do what he says." That would be immpossible because they had not yet eaten the fruit that gave them the knowledge of right vs. wrong.
"The evidence is every experience I have even had in which I knew I had more than one option..."
So, let's analyze that evidence. It's not something that others can observe... we can't duplicate an experiment that demonstrates that you were making a decision... How do you separate this 'knowing' from a 'feeling'?
"I disagree with you that there is strong evidence that you can't have free will."
Well, given a deterministic universe, free will is impossible... would you agree with that?
"Now, if I looked into it, and found that most people did think they were different colors, but they all said it was a different color,"
Yes, I agree there is variation, and I'm not sure what to make of it.
I saw a program on TV once in which someone bursts into a college classroom, yells at the instructor, and shoots him (with blanks, but the students don't know that yet)... the instructor lays on the ground few seconds, then gets up and says, "Everyone take out a sheet of paper and write down exactly what you saw and heard, include as many details as you can remember." Everyone agrees something happened, but there is significant differences about what the attacker yelled, what he was wearing, I think even the number of shots fired.
And I'm sure you've heard of the 'group of blind people feeling and describing an elephant'... each one describes it differently, but no one thinks there's something untrustworthy about the sense of touch.
My best guess is to compare spiritual sensations to music... Most people have a musical sense, but Indian classical music developed in a radically different way than Western hymns.
"What you call a spirit* is something that to me seems indistinguishable from normal human feelings. I just think some people call it different things. This is when I would have to start using the scientific method to determine what is most likely true. And if I can't test it, I stay at my default position of "there's no reason for me to think this thing is true."
Very cool! Now, just apply that same logic to your sensation of 'making a decision'... use the scientific method to test whether you have free will... and if you can't test it, use the default position of "there's no reason for me to think this thing is true."
"You may be right, I just have no reason to think that is the case."
An open mind... that's what I ask of myself and others.
[* what is it that I call a spirit? I think I talked about a "spiritual dimension to life"... did I talk about a spirit? I don't remember.]
So, let's analyze that evidence. It's not something that others can observe... we can't duplicate an experiment that demonstrates that you were making a decision... How do you separate this 'knowing' from a 'feeling'?
"I disagree with you that there is strong evidence that you can't have free will."
Well, given a deterministic universe, free will is impossible... would you agree with that?
"Now, if I looked into it, and found that most people did think they were different colors, but they all said it was a different color,"
Yes, I agree there is variation, and I'm not sure what to make of it.
I saw a program on TV once in which someone bursts into a college classroom, yells at the instructor, and shoots him (with blanks, but the students don't know that yet)... the instructor lays on the ground few seconds, then gets up and says, "Everyone take out a sheet of paper and write down exactly what you saw and heard, include as many details as you can remember." Everyone agrees something happened, but there is significant differences about what the attacker yelled, what he was wearing, I think even the number of shots fired.
And I'm sure you've heard of the 'group of blind people feeling and describing an elephant'... each one describes it differently, but no one thinks there's something untrustworthy about the sense of touch.
My best guess is to compare spiritual sensations to music... Most people have a musical sense, but Indian classical music developed in a radically different way than Western hymns.
"What you call a spirit* is something that to me seems indistinguishable from normal human feelings. I just think some people call it different things. This is when I would have to start using the scientific method to determine what is most likely true. And if I can't test it, I stay at my default position of "there's no reason for me to think this thing is true."
Very cool! Now, just apply that same logic to your sensation of 'making a decision'... use the scientific method to test whether you have free will... and if you can't test it, use the default position of "there's no reason for me to think this thing is true."
"You may be right, I just have no reason to think that is the case."
An open mind... that's what I ask of myself and others.
[* what is it that I call a spirit? I think I talked about a "spiritual dimension to life"... did I talk about a spirit? I don't remember.]
You have not convinced me they are religions. The whole idea strikes me as somewhat nutty. Buddhism may be a non-theistic faith that in someways more resembles a philosophy of life than a religion, but it is called a religion because it has many religious qualities: a belief in the mystical and reincarnation, temples, monastaries, and monks. My Buddhist friend wouldn't go so far as call herself an atheist. She has a lot of mystical notions tied to her Buddhist beliefs, some of which strike me as very weird. In the ranks of those who accept evolution are many Christians, Jews, and probably a good number of Buddhists. Evolution is strictly a science. It is evidence based. Nothing Buddhism is evidence based.
No, atheism is not a religion. It has no temples inhabited by monks, no trained priesthood, no sacred works, and no gods. The definition I gave above of religion fits Christianity perfectly, but atheism not at all. You know this, Nl.
No, atheism is not a religion. It has no temples inhabited by monks, no trained priesthood, no sacred works, and no gods. The definition I gave above of religion fits Christianity perfectly, but atheism not at all. You know this, Nl.
How do you know they didn't know the serpent? Maybe Eve didn't think twice about listening to the serpent because he'd perhaps chatted with her and Adam many times in the past. Look, not a single conversation between Adam and Eve is recorded. Do you think they never talked?
Does Eve appear stunned to come across a talking snake? Not at all. I would suggest they'd been on a first name basis for some time. I mean, if you encountered a talking snake, or dog, or horse, etc., do you think you would take its advice? Either Eve was incredibly naive, and Adam along with her, or they knew this talking snake quite well. Think about it.
Does Eve appear stunned to come across a talking snake? Not at all. I would suggest they'd been on a first name basis for some time. I mean, if you encountered a talking snake, or dog, or horse, etc., do you think you would take its advice? Either Eve was incredibly naive, and Adam along with her, or they knew this talking snake quite well. Think about it.
K
The only thing that will convince Cycel is the Holy Spirit. Your experience and biblical wisdom will not do it. The only way that may be possible, is to pray for him daily. And if we can get 3 people to pray for him daily, whatsoever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven. Whatsoever you ask the father in my name (Jesus) He will do it.
Of course if we do this it will make things tuff and hard for the person we pray for. I meant the prodigal son was reduced to eating the husks with the pigs ( a very demeaning place for a Jew), but atleast he will get saved. You will be surprised what prayer can do.
Mothers have prayed for their children for many many years and then get that phone call. "Momma I just got saved".
why don't science study prayer?
Of course if we do this it will make things tuff and hard for the person we pray for. I meant the prodigal son was reduced to eating the husks with the pigs ( a very demeaning place for a Jew), but atleast he will get saved. You will be surprised what prayer can do.
Mothers have prayed for their children for many many years and then get that phone call. "Momma I just got saved".
why don't science study prayer?
Kerry is right in the fact the Holy Spirit will do the work, all you have to do is believe/faith and prayer to Jesus, and repent ( turn away ) from sin, He will save you. It has to be something you want though, God doesn't push Himself on you, He doesn't break will.. All this evidence you want, you will never get, until you have Him, then He gives us evidence all the time.. Physically and Spiritually ..
I have just thought of something else. Atheists often think of religion as being based, not on evidence, but on faith. Then some believers turn around and claim it takes more faith to be an atheist. We should ask why people lose their belief in God in the first place. The truth is it all comes down to a lack of evidence. Christians of course claim there is plenty of evidence, but at some point those of faith, who will in time become atheists, begin to doubt the legitimacy of the claims. I suppose this is the so-called slippery slope and explains why many conservative Christians are very reluctant to admit to any errors in the Bible. Once a person begins to doubt where does it stop? For some the answer is it doesn't. Such people sometimes become atheists. Others, perhaps the majority, end up simply as more liberal versions of themselves. But if, as you say, atheism is a religion, then it is a religion based upon a lack of true evidence for God. Faith, is the adherence to beliefs that cannot be substantiated through physical evidence, atheism is the final recognition that no reason remains to believe in God. Is this truly a religion? Is that truly faith?
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K
You know Cycel there have times that I have wondered myself. I don't know the situation and can not comment. People disregard God for many reasons.
I know that alot of them lose faith because their young child died or something they prayed earnestly for did not come to pass. The reason's to disregard our plentiful. Maybe you were in an environment that did not preach nor teach the cross, such as Catholic maybe or what ever.
Remember that time and meditate on it, I know that your heart is stone at this point and the evidence you seek is not there.
you will not find 100% percent evidence until you have placed faith in Him. Because faith is the evidence of things not seen and evidence comes after faith. I meant it pursues faith.
Man God loves you and died for you. You are here for a reason and not just your whim. Think about it, why are you here debating. You know in your heart the truth.
I love you Cycel and I know we have had our back and forths, and I am no better than you.
When we reach out to God and try our best to live for Him, do you think the devil is going to say okay I quit. No, he will make it harder and tougher. Look at Israel in Egypt, when Moses said let my people go, He doubled their work load and about worked them to death. They were telling Mose to shutup and stop, but then came the day that they were set free.
If you don't give up, He won't give up.
I know that alot of them lose faith because their young child died or something they prayed earnestly for did not come to pass. The reason's to disregard our plentiful. Maybe you were in an environment that did not preach nor teach the cross, such as Catholic maybe or what ever.
Remember that time and meditate on it, I know that your heart is stone at this point and the evidence you seek is not there.
you will not find 100% percent evidence until you have placed faith in Him. Because faith is the evidence of things not seen and evidence comes after faith. I meant it pursues faith.
Man God loves you and died for you. You are here for a reason and not just your whim. Think about it, why are you here debating. You know in your heart the truth.
I love you Cycel and I know we have had our back and forths, and I am no better than you.
When we reach out to God and try our best to live for Him, do you think the devil is going to say okay I quit. No, he will make it harder and tougher. Look at Israel in Egypt, when Moses said let my people go, He doubled their work load and about worked them to death. They were telling Mose to shutup and stop, but then came the day that they were set free.
If you don't give up, He won't give up.
I have heard some people discussing "predestination" and there are some verses in the Bible that use the word "predestined", but I believe they must be misused or misunderstood in order for one to conclude that each person is predestined to be saved or not.
Acts 4:23-30
[SUP]23 [/SUP]When they had been released, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, “O Lord, it is You who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, [SUP]25 [/SUP]who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
And the peoples devise futile things?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]‘The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.’
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, [SUP]28 [/SUP]to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. [SUP]29 [/SUP]And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, [SUP]30 [/SUP]while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.”
Here, we have a verse that says that an event (the crucifixion) was predestined to occur. And with it, a list of people that were involved. One could argue that Herod and Pilate could do little to avoid their involvement; and I have heard many judge Pilate very harshly. But, what does Jesus say to Pilate: Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.” (Jn 19:11)
Ephesians 1:3-23
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, [SUP]4 [/SUP]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love [SUP]5 [/SUP]He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,[SUP]6 [/SUP]to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. [SUP]7 [/SUP]In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace [SUP]8 [/SUP]which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight [SUP]9 [/SUP]He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him [SUP]10 [/SUP]with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him [SUP]11 [/SUP]also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, [SUP]12 [/SUP]to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. [SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, [SUP]16 [/SUP]do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; [SUP]17 [/SUP]that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, [SUP]19 [/SUP]and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might [SUP]20 [/SUP]which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, [SUP]21 [/SUP]far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, [SUP]23 [/SUP]which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
You can read this how you will, but I am of the opinion that, as I have said many times before, that Jesus was THE PLAN before Adam was formed. Now, I will not insist that some were not predestined to "carry out their role/part in scripture", but I do insist that we were not "predestined" to eternal salvation or damnation. God is just.
1 Peter 3:17-22
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; [SUP]19 [/SUP]in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, [SUP]20 [/SUP]who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
[SUP]22 [/SUP]who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
Romans 1:18-32
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, [SUP]19 [/SUP]because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Professing to be wise, they became fools, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, [SUP]27 [/SUP]and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, [SUP]29 [/SUP]being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, [SUP]30 [/SUP]slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, [SUP]31 [/SUP]without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; [SUP]32 [/SUP]and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
I can see how a person can take a scripture here and there and form this warped opinion, but if someone reads the whole Bible I don't believe that they can hold the view that God has not given freewill to mankind.