Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

[notuptome]

Paul had a thorn in the flesh,we dont know what that was,sickness or something else. And Paul said it was given to him to keep him humble.Are we such spiritual giants that God has to humble us with a thorn in the flesh? Doubt it.Either way Paul said why he wasn't relieved of the thorn.That is specific to Paul and his circumstances not to every Christian.Of course God can be glorified in any situation but Gods will is always to heal.

Now where do you go with this? When confronted with the truth from Gods word you choose not to accept but to change it to suit your preconceived notion. There is no humility in telling God what He is going to do.

Let me ask you is this an example of heaping to themselves teachers having itching ears?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Absolutely wrong. The three sign gifts ceased when the inspired word of God was completed. The prophecy in Joel of the sign gifts is not to the church but to Israel. Peter clearly expressed this at Pentecost. All that needed to be completed when Paul was writing to the Corinthians was the word of God.

The central point of what we are is Christ. Signs are for Israel not the Gentile church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Why then would God choose to take 3 chapters in Corinthians which are specifically devoted to these "spiritual matters" and have them addressed to the church showing the correct way in which the manifestation of the Spirit should be used if it wasn't needful for the church, the body of Christ?

 

[kaylagrl]

The Pentecostals of decades ago are not the Pentecostals of today. The holiness if long gone.

As a little boy, and I was one a long time ago, if you go out and play with the dogs don't be surprised when you get fleas. With whom we associate ourselves is important for it gives others expectations about our conduct.

No offense to your grandmother but the Pentecostals of today are not the Pentecostals of her day.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

And the only thing that changes that is you and me! We can say que sera sera or we can change it. Revivals have been born out of dead church liturgy and saints gone astray into false teaching. Revive us again!

 

[notuptome]

In the context of chapter 12-14: Speaking of spiritual matters or things of the Spirit pneumatikos - prophesies in 13:8 is a manifestation of the Spirit, tongues is a manifestation of the Spirit and so knowledge would be in the same category as in word of knowledge -a manifestation of the Spirit.

The "church" operates through the holy Spirit that dwells in each member - the gift of holy spirit is ours to operate and is given to us by the holy Spirit. When I speak of the manifestation of the Spirit - it is definitely nothing of my own but what God has given to those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is definitely not "apart from Christ" and are not used to serve one self but to edify the body of Christ.

I appreciate your contention but it is not evident in the church. The Holy Spirit operates through believers. The Holy Spirit is not operating through the organization called church.

Tongues are a sign gift and are for Israel not for the Gentiles. It speaks volumes that the modern Pentecostal church desires tongues with so great a fervency. Tongues if you notice are a sign to Israel of judgment. When Israel was disobedient God brought them under the control of nations with languages they did not speak. The tower of Babel was a place of Gods judgment not blessing upon the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ForthAngel]

Paul had a thorn in the flesh,we dont know what that was,sickness or something else. And Paul said it was given to him to keep him humble.Are we such spiritual giants that God has to humble us with a thorn in the flesh? Doubt it.Either way Paul said why he wasn't relieved of the thorn.That is specific to Paul and his circumstances not to every Christian.Of course God can be glorified in any situation but Gods will is always to heal.

Galatians 4
12 I plead with you, brothers and sisters, become like me, for I became like you. You did me no wrong. 13 As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you, 14 and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15 Where, then, is your blessing of me now? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

Was Paul a faithless? Seems God's will was for Paul to be sick or injured during this time so that he could stay and preach the Gospel. Strange concept for many here.

 

[Mitspa]

Galatians 4
12 I plead with you, brothers and sisters, become like me, for I became like you. You did me no wrong. 13 As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you, 14 and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15 Where, then, is your blessing of me now? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

Was Paul a faithless? Seems God's will was for Paul to be sick or injured during this time so that he could stay and preach the Gospel. Strange concept for many here.

You must know that's a matter of translation? And the word basically means weakness (from whatever source)

 

[notuptome]

So the promises of suffering for Christ are real but the promises of healing have passed away?

Are sincere in your question or do you ask to mock God?

God is the healer of all mankind. God cause the rain to fall on the good and the evil. God heals through natural means and can still heal through miracles. God is not in show business and does not go onstage to do wonders to awe the audience. God can do miracles but God has no necessity to do miracles.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Mitspa]

Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up

 

[Mitspa]

Are sincere in your question or do you ask to mock God?

God is the healer of all mankind. God cause the rain to fall on the good and the evil. God heals through natural means and can still heal through miracles. God is not in show business and does not go onstage to do wonders to awe the audience. God can do miracles but God has no necessity to do miracles.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Mock God? look cant you have a reasonable discussion on the issue? Don't pretend with me that you somehow represent the judgment of God...I know God and know Gods power... Now what I question is a double mind of some who take part of Gods word as truth and other parts as things that don't really happen.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I appreciate your contention but it is not evident in the church. The Holy Spirit operates through believers. The Holy Spirit is not operating through the organization called church.

Tongues are a sign gift and are for Israel not for the Gentiles. It speaks volumes that the modern Pentecostal church desires tongues with so great a fervency. Tongues if you notice are a sign to Israel of judgment. When Israel was disobedient God brought them under the control of nations with languages they did not speak. The tower of Babel was a place of Gods judgment not blessing upon the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Good morning Roger - God bless!

When I say "church" I am speaking of the body of Christ - wherein we are all "members in particular" - not an organization nor a brick building.

Again I am not a Pentecostal and I do not "DESIRE TONGUES WITH GREAT FERVENCY"! God does say that tongues are a sign for unbelievers but God also says that one who speaks in tongues edifies himself [14:4a] and that tongues with interpretation edifies the church [14:5b]. Tongues are a manifestation of the Spirit given to believers not in "judgment" but as to edify.

 

[kaylagrl]

Now where do you go with this? When confronted with the truth from Gods word you choose not to accept but to change it to suit your preconceived notion. There is no humility in telling God what He is going to do.

Let me ask you is this an example of heaping to themselves teachers having itching ears?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No preconceived notion.And if you are a former Pentecostal you know what they believe about healing. Pauls situation was specific to Paul.If it was a sickness or not the thorn in the flesh was given to him to keep him humble.That is not for every believer,that is specific to Paul...

To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

KJV.....And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

There are differing opinions as to what Pauls thorn was,still it doesnt apply to us.It was given to him and wasnt taken away for a reason.We are not Paul.

 

[ForthAngel]

You must know that's a matter of translation? And the word basically means weakness (from whatever source)

Let's try this then:

2 Corinthians
Whatever anyone else dares to boast about—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast about. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33 But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.

Where is Paul's faith to have suffered so much?

 

[Mitspa]

Let's try this then:

2 Corinthians
Whatever anyone else dares to boast about—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast about. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33 But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.

Where is Paul's faith to have suffered so much?

He suffered for the gospel...because He believed the truth that "by His Stripes, we are healed" not because he didn't believe!

 

[kaylagrl]

Galatians 4
12 I plead with you, brothers and sisters, become like me, for I became like you. You did me no wrong. 13 As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you, 14 and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15 Where, then, is your blessing of me now? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

Was Paul a faithless? Seems God's will was for Paul to be sick or injured during this time so that he could stay and preach the Gospel. Strange concept for many here.

No Paul said why his thorn was not taken away.It was to keep him humble.

 

[ForthAngel]

No Paul said why his thorn was not taken away.It was to keep him humble.

But I thought God's will is for all to be healed? I didn't realize there was a stipulation other than faith. God doesn't heal everyone regardless of their level of faith? That is the idea that is being pushed here and we have a clear biblical example that this isn't true in the least.

 

[Mitspa]

But I thought God's will is for all to be healed? I didn't realize there was a stipulation other than faith. God doesn't heal everyone regardless of their level of faith? That is the idea that is being pushed here and we have a clear biblical example that this isn't true in the least.

I didn't see the post where anyone claimed that someone can be healed apart from faith...would you mind posting that?

 

[kaylagrl]

But I thought God's will is for all to be healed? I didn't realize there was a stipulation other than faith. God doesn't heal everyone regardless of their level of faith? That is the idea that is being pushed here and we have a clear biblical example that this isn't true in the least.

The Bible says that one place Jesus could do no miracles because of their unbelief.So it must have been pretty bad considering we need only the "faith of a mustard seed." It had nothing to do with Pauls level of faith.Once again his situation was specific to HIM. Read the verse.

 

[ForthAngel]

I didn't see the post where anyone claimed that someone can be healed apart from faith...would you mind posting that?

What I'm saying is that those pushing the idea that the gifts are still active are saying that that person's own faith is what determines if they are healed or not. Or, in a broader perspective of the charismatic movement, their faith determines their amount of wealth, how healthy they are, and such vanities such as getting that promotion. The bible clearly is against this school of thought.

Ceased, what has ceased your faith or God's word. What you have been taught or what is real. Many will teach that the gifts have ceased because they don't have them nor believe in them.

Paul surly believed in the gifts, right? Yet he suffered injury and illness. Poverty. Hunger.

jesus never said no.Never did he refuse or fail to heal anyone.It is His will to heal.Im not God, there are different reasons people arent healed but it is His will for us to be healed.He never said no.

It is his will for spiritual healing. Physical healing is not always his will. We will be restored at judgment. How can God contradict his own will? If it is his will for all to be healed. I guarantee, all would be healed.

The only people He did not or could not heal was those "who thought they knew Him" but really didn't...or those who had no faith. Jesus NEVER changes...He is always the Healer and HE has already paid the price for us to be healed, it just takes a level of faith to enter into these things.

Again. Was Paul faithless? Did Paul know Jesus?

 

[Mitspa]

What I'm saying is that those pushing the idea that the gifts are still active are saying that that person's own faith is what determines if they are healed or not. Or, in a broader perspective of the charismatic movement, their faith determines their amount of wealth, how healthy they are, and such vanities such as getting that promotion. The bible clearly is against this school of thought.



Paul surly believed in the gifts, right? Yet he suffered injury and illness. Poverty. Hunger.



It is his will for spiritual healing. Physical healing is not always his will. We will be restored at judgment. How can God contradict his own will? If it is his will for all to be healed. I guarantee, all would be healed.



Again. Was Paul faithless? Did Paul know Jesus?

Well if Paul had to suffer a illness and God did not remove that from him for some reason, that still don't change the clear and evident promise that Christ has healed us by His Stripes... That if ANY are sick let them call for the elders.... And Paul taught the reason many are sick is because they don't perceive the Lords Body... I personally don't believe Paul was sick but had been beaten recently and still had the effects of that beating.

 

[kaylagrl]

What I'm saying is that those pushing the idea that the gifts are still active are saying that that person's own faith is what determines if they are healed or not. Or, in a broader perspective of the charismatic movement, their faith determines their amount of wealth, how healthy they are, and such vanities such as getting that promotion. The bible clearly is against this school of thought.



Paul surly believed in the gifts, right? Yet he suffered injury and illness. Poverty. Hunger.



It is his will for spiritual healing. Physical healing is not always his will. We will be restored at judgment. How can God contradict his own will? If it is his will for all to be healed. I guarantee, all would be healed.



Again. Was Paul faithless? Did Paul know Jesus?

Jesus said "you will do greater things".In the NT it says "according to your faith be it unto you." If you have the faith of a mustard seed ALL can be healed and it is Gods will that ALL be healed. No one is greater or more deserving of healing than any other.