Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

[ForthAngel]

So now the Word of God is not true? Or you have a "different" Spirit, different gospel, different Jesus? I don't understand what point you think you are making? The early Church lived in holiness and godliness by the Power of the Holy Spirit...did that all end too?

Of course it didn't end. Only the sign gifts giving certain people authority. As far as I know, there is no record in scripture of anyone other than a witness to Christ after the resurrection, or those 12 that traveled with him before his crucifixion, or those who had hands laid on them by the aforementioned, having a sign gift.

As I stated above:

He honors it through spiritual growth, not infantile signs. Faith, hope, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Outward signs of change. Inner change. This is the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Good point and I could concede. Are we sure he did not believe in the risen Christ, or was it simply that he did not believe they had seen the risen Christ?

Either way he still had doubt that the Lord had risen and had been seen, and stated until he saw it for himself and saw the crucifixion wounds He suffered. He would not believe.

 

[Mitspa]

That just means we do not live in willful unrepented sins, not that we never sin again.
We still do sin, and those sins have to be confessed and asked forgiveness of to be forgiven and covered by His blood.
( 1 John, and Hebrews 10:26 )

Wrong ...you cant be justified and righteous in Christ by God...and then God accounting you as a sinner at the same time.....that's a false gospel and no wonder so many "Christians" are sick ...believing that kind of nonsense.

 

[ForthAngel]

Been a nice debate guys, but I gotta take a little break. I might hop back int he discussion later today. God bless

 

[Mitspa]

Of course it didn't end. Only the sign gifts giving certain people authority. As far as I know, there is no record in scripture of anyone other than a witness to Christ after the resurrection, or those 12 that traveled with him before his crucifixion, or those who had hands laid on them by the aforementioned, having a sign gift.

As I stated above:

See here is the problem...we don't believe the Word of God based on the opinion of man...Let God be true and every man a lair... "by His stripes ye are healed" these signs will follow them that believe.... Maybe the problem is with those who don't have what the bible says and not with those who do?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Kenneth you seem to just make stuff up as you go along? The Lord Himself affirmed the faith and salvation of all His 12 but Judas before He was crucified...many times in scripture.

This is not making stuff up, the bible clearly says that you have to believe He came in flesh, died on the cross for remission of sins, and rose on the third day.
This is all part of your belief in Him as Paul states in Romans 10.

As for Judas, he was not saved as Jesus makes that clear that He did not lose one but the son of perdition.
The son of perdition was Judas, and Jesus says he was the only one He lost out of the original 12.

 

[notuptome]

Mock God? look cant you have a reasonable discussion on the issue? Don't pretend with me that you somehow represent the judgment of God...I know God and know Gods power... Now what I question is a double mind of some who take part of Gods word as truth and other parts as things that don't really happen.

Well let's see. Does God heal? You bet He does. Does God use natural healing? Yes again. Can God heal through miracles? Yes God can. God is able to do miracles but God is not under any necessity to do miracles. The three gifts which have ended are listed and they are specific sign gifts.

Where we run afoul is when folks want God to do everything by miracle and are distressed when God acts through nature to accomplish His will.

I don't know what you know or don't know but I do know that God acts within His word. God never acts outside of what He has declared in His word. If God said it has ceased it has ceased. If God chooses not to act because of sin then that's the way it will be.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stephen63]

Pretty sure Thomas was already a believer in the Gospel dude. He wanted to know that that particular man was not an imposter. This had nothing to do with seeking a sign for salvation but more along the lines of testing to be sure this man was who he said he was, as we are called to do with everything.

You need to read your Bible, dude..... we're done here.

 

[notuptome]

Why then would God choose to take 3 chapters in Corinthians which are specifically devoted to these "spiritual matters" and have them addressed to the church showing the correct way in which the manifestation of the Spirit should be used if it wasn't needful for the church, the body of Christ?

I'm good with all three chapters but it seems that you do not accept 1 Cor 13:8.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Mitspa]

This is not making stuff up, the bible clearly says that you have to believe He came in flesh, died on the cross for remission of sins, and rose on the third day.
This is all part of your belief in Him as Paul states in Romans 10.

As for Judas, he was not saved as Jesus makes that clear that He did not lose one but the son of perdition.
The son of perdition was Judas, and Jesus says he was the only one He lost out of the original 12.

Joh 17:6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 ¶ And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Wrong ...you cant be justified and righteous in Christ by God...and then God accounting you as a sinner at the same time.....that's a false gospel and no wonder so many "Christians" are sick ...believing that kind of nonsense.

No it is not a false gospel, the bible says that future sins can still count against you.
First it says in Hebrews if you continue to willfully sin you will face judgment and the lake of fire, 1 John tells us we have to still confess future sins to be forgiven of them, and last of all Paul says that if you return to willful sin that sin becomes your master and states in Galatians that believers can fall from grace. Then in Romans Paul warns that if you do not continue in God's grace you will be cut off.

 

[Mitspa]

Well let's see. Does God heal? You bet He does. Does God use natural healing? Yes again. Can God heal through miracles? Yes God can. God is able to do miracles but God is not under any necessity to do miracles. The three gifts which have ended are listed and they are specific sign gifts.

Where we run afoul is when folks want God to do everything by miracle and are distressed when God acts through nature to accomplish His will.

I don't know what you know or don't know but I do know that God acts within His word. God never acts outside of what He has declared in His word. If God said it has ceased it has ceased. If God chooses not to act because of sin then that's the way it will be.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Look Im not a crazymatic and think they should be shamed for the way many of them act in the flesh...trying to look all Spiritual.... But I believe Gods Word is absolute and true...All the promises of God in Him are yes and Amen.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Joh 17:6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 ¶ And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Why don't you read and highlight the whole scripture there;

I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled


The son of perdition is referring to Judas who betrayed Him.....

 

[notuptome]

The lack of gifts in the church is no evidence of them being done away with no more than legalistic churches define that grace is done away with. They don't have it because they don't believe.

In these last days, it's no surprise there's so much unbelief in the church..... yours, mine, anybody's.

It is a confirmation of Gods declaration that they would end.

It does not matter how good something seems if it detracts from Christ it is not good. Do you choose a church because of gifts or because Christ is preached there?

I've asked you before if all the trappings of Pentecostalism are removed from the church will folks still come? Is the preaching of Gods word the most important part of the service?

Many churches today do not even have a pulpit. It has been replaced by the stage for entertainment oops worship music.

If folks are not getting saved and their lives changed for Christ what are we doing?

The church is to influence society not adapt itself to society. We are to conform to Christ not conform to the world lite.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Mitspa]

Why don't you read and highlight the whole scripture there;

I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled


The son of perdition is referring to Judas who betrayed Him.....

I have Kept them...that means they was saved and remained saved in the Fathers Name...Thomas was not saved then lost and then saved again...

 

[CRC]

Holy spirit is diverse in it’s operation upon true Christians. If not for that spirit we could not even achieve the holiness necessary to be use by or to please God.
Holy spirit is a force for cleanness among God’s people. Those who play a part in God’s purpose must be morally clean. (Read 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.) Some who become true Christians formerly engaged in such immoral practices as fornication, adultery, and homosexuality. The desires that give birth to sinful acts can be deeply entrenched. (Jas. 1:14, 15) Yet, such individuals have been “washed clean,” indicating that they have made the changes in their life needed to please God. What enables a lover of God to resist successfully the impulse to act on wrong desires? “The spirit of our God,” says 1 Corinthians 6:11. By keeping morally clean, you show that you are letting that spirit be a dominant force in your life.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I have Kept them...that means they was saved and remained saved in the Fathers Name...Thomas was not saved then lost and then saved again...

Know they were not, He is saying He did not lose any of His 12 disciples except for Judas who betrayed Him......

Here is another thing that Jesus said about Judas fate;

Matthew 26:24
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

 

[Mitspa]

Holy spirit is diverse in it’s operation upon true Christians. If not for that spirit we could not even achieve the holiness necessary to be use by or to please God.
Holy spirit is a force for cleanness among God’s people. Those who play a part in God’s purpose must be morally clean. (Read 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.) Some who become true Christians formerly engaged in such immoral practices as fornication, adultery, and homosexuality. The desires that give birth to sinful acts can be deeply entrenched. (Jas. 1:14, 15) Yet, such individuals have been “washed clean,” indicating that they have made the changes in their life needed to please God. What enables a lover of God to resist successfully the impulse to act on wrong desires? “The spirit of our God,” says 1 Corinthians 6:11. By keeping morally clean, you show that you are letting that spirit be a dominant force in your life.

I agree...but its the same Holy Spirit that indwelt the believers in the beginning ... So of course it will act in holiness and in power in the believer according to what the Holy spirit had written in the scriptures.

 

[Mitspa]

Know they were not, He is saying He did not lose any of His 12 disciples except for Judas who betrayed Him......

Here is another thing that Jesus said about Judas fate;

Matthew 26:24
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

If you don't have something how can you keep it or lose it? Thomas was not lost because Jesus kept Him...just like He kept Peter even tho Peter denied Him.

 

[kennethcadwell]

If you don't have something how can you keep it or lose it? Thomas was not lost because Jesus kept Him...just like He kept Peter even tho Peter denied Him.

Now you are turning things back around.
For the last few responses was about Judas, and how the bible clearly shows he was lost.
For Jesus Himself said He lost Judas, so that scripture could be fulfilled.
Thomas on the other hand said he did not believe in the resurrection tell he saw the Lord for himself and the wounds He suffered, and put his hand in the wound.
Paul said in Romans that if you confess in Him coming in the flesh, died on the cross, and the resurrection you will be saved. Pointing to all aspects of the Lord have to be believed on, to be saved. Not just a mere belief style.