The doctrine I don't want to believe-eternal fire
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Ages of Ages is translated from Owlam. The Greeks didn't really have word to translate owlam and as such used the phrase ages of ages. However, the word owlam meant, until an unknown time. It was use of a distant time in either the future or the past. Literally it meant beyond the horizon. What is beyond the horizon cannot be seen. This was the concept of owlam, it didn't mean eternity. Here are few uses of owlam
KJV Exodus 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (Exo 21:6 KJV)
Obviously both of these men will die so the servant will not serve the master for eternity.
20 And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always. In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel. (Exo 27:21 KJV)
This ordinance in the English translation is said to be for ever, yet both the Arronic priesthood and the Mosaic Law ended. Jesus and Paul both tell us that the Law came to an end. If the Law ended then the ordinance is not an ordinance for eternity.
43 And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him. (Exo 28:43 KJV)
Here is another ordinance that in English is said to be forever, yet the Law and the Arronic prieshood ended. There is ordinance after ordinance that in English is said to be forever which is translated from owlam and yet Jesus and Paul tell us that both the Arronic priesthood and the Mosaic Law ended. So, we have choice, we can look to the translators or Jesus and Paul. My money is on Jesus and Paul. From their words owlam doesn't mean forever, I'm siding with them.
KJV Exodus 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (Exo 21:6 KJV)
Obviously both of these men will die so the servant will not serve the master for eternity.
20 And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always. In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel. (Exo 27:21 KJV)
This ordinance in the English translation is said to be for ever, yet both the Arronic priesthood and the Mosaic Law ended. Jesus and Paul both tell us that the Law came to an end. If the Law ended then the ordinance is not an ordinance for eternity.
43 And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him. (Exo 28:43 KJV)
Here is another ordinance that in English is said to be forever, yet the Law and the Arronic prieshood ended. There is ordinance after ordinance that in English is said to be forever which is translated from owlam and yet Jesus and Paul tell us that both the Arronic priesthood and the Mosaic Law ended. So, we have choice, we can look to the translators or Jesus and Paul. My money is on Jesus and Paul. From their words owlam doesn't mean forever, I'm siding with them.
I am noticing that parts of sentences, and whole sentences fall off while posting, just one little slip of a key or mouse click changing whole paragraphs just for trying to insert a comma. I catch most of those before hitting Send. Fortunately I can usually click on the basic windows Edit then Undo and recover the last error, sometimes recovering an entire post that looks hopeless. I can hit Undo again and recover more of what's lost. I apologize for leaving out many words.
Spirit of man has a soul living in a body, and God can do whatever He likes with us. The word of God says it best.
Hebrews 4:12 (KJV) [SUP]12 [/SUP] For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
I choose to forget Plato and all other nonsense man treasures above the wisdom of God. Time is too precious to discuss such things. My point was it is nonsense to accuse any Christian of considering nonsensical vain philosophies, especially when they have not cited those things by name.
Colossians 2:8 (KJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Spirit of man has a soul living in a body, and God can do whatever He likes with us. The word of God says it best.
Hebrews 4:12 (KJV) [SUP]12 [/SUP] For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
I choose to forget Plato and all other nonsense man treasures above the wisdom of God. Time is too precious to discuss such things. My point was it is nonsense to accuse any Christian of considering nonsensical vain philosophies, especially when they have not cited those things by name.
Colossians 2:8 (KJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
After I read some of post on this topic, seem to me some people doesn't believe that hell is eternal.
The reason is there is verse said people will punish according to their deeds.
I believe hell is eternal. people will punish according to their deeds can mean some are punish severely some are light but all punishment are eternal.
The reason is there is verse said people will punish according to their deeds.
I believe hell is eternal. people will punish according to their deeds can mean some are punish severely some are light but all punishment are eternal.
K
The bible speaks about punishment for sin in hell in two different ways.
At one point for some it says that the punishment will be eternal, in other places though when it refers to eternal it is just talking about how long the place will exist. Jesus makes it clear that some will not be punished as harsh as others in Luke 12. This can not happen if they all face the same punishment of burning for eternity.
Taking an English word back to old English doesn't trump going to the original Greek, then examining its use in context.
I must take it that your concept of eternal life with God is limited to terms of earth years? What will God do with you at your end there with Him? Will you cease to exist even though in Christ? Am I to assume even Christ will vanish in time?
I disagree. The Bible over and over indicates.......perpetually, eternally, without end, for saint and sinner alike.
Not dealing with the seeming contradiction of the love or God and His judgment leaves an enormous gap in understanding. It takes weeks of intense study hours at a time daily to correct it. It is apparent that can't be done on the internet. There's a world of debate between webmasters out there, proof that it is best just to read the Bible and believe it.
I must take it that your concept of eternal life with God is limited to terms of earth years? What will God do with you at your end there with Him? Will you cease to exist even though in Christ? Am I to assume even Christ will vanish in time?
I disagree. The Bible over and over indicates.......perpetually, eternally, without end, for saint and sinner alike.
Not dealing with the seeming contradiction of the love or God and His judgment leaves an enormous gap in understanding. It takes weeks of intense study hours at a time daily to correct it. It is apparent that can't be done on the internet. There's a world of debate between webmasters out there, proof that it is best just to read the Bible and believe it.
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Again I do not understand. The wages/punishment/reward/end of sin is DEATH! All idols go to the grave eternally. Anything we value that does not have life will be taken from us. The money, religion, awards, degrees, jail records, shiny rocks, wood, silver and any other item or name a man is called here that DOES NOT HAVE LIFE IN THEM.
I was before I knew anything else, born a man. Since then I like you all was given a name, and was called other names in relation to that name. The name already shaped in iniquity! How can it survive? Under it we all have belief that we need the things we make to survive to the point we have forgotten what free means!
I was before I knew anything else, born a man. Since then I like you all was given a name, and was called other names in relation to that name. The name already shaped in iniquity! How can it survive? Under it we all have belief that we need the things we make to survive to the point we have forgotten what free means!
But we try to compare people in hell with different punishment. All eternal punishment but some are easier then other, probably brother Kenneth remember one day Jesus said the punishment of one that know the law and violate is heavier than one that don't know the law.
but it doesn't say that some are eternal same are temporary.
but it doesn't say that some are eternal same are temporary.
There is no such thing as a different punishment in hell. It's the grave, and death looks alike to all there!
I told you before that what goes away is lifeless items we place our value in. Even our given names in this world are dead, will burn and not rise again. If my government recognized my name as "John," how many are named such in this world?
Of those, how many are doctors, lawyers, teachers, gangbangers, bums, Catholics, baptists, Methodists, etc.??? All of these which saw their beginnings of the dirt of the earth and are lifeless will burn forever.
I told you before that what goes away is lifeless items we place our value in. Even our given names in this world are dead, will burn and not rise again. If my government recognized my name as "John," how many are named such in this world?
Of those, how many are doctors, lawyers, teachers, gangbangers, bums, Catholics, baptists, Methodists, etc.??? All of these which saw their beginnings of the dirt of the earth and are lifeless will burn forever.
To my knowledge of Christian theology, at the end of time every person kneels to God when he becomes victorious over sin; the early Catholics believed that the fire was just the vehicle for the destruction of sin and the purification of humans towards that end. Some people believe that it's a conceptualization of an integral part the psychological process of 'knowing in full'; that once God imparts his knowledge on humans the sinful nature is overcome, the desire to sin burnt out and the 'smoke' off that fire 'rises for eternity'. 'He shall wipe the tears from their eyes and there shall be no more suffering'.
If this isn't the case, then hasn't God failed to rid all sin? Clearly, if sinful beings still exist being tormented for eternity then sinful desire still exists; suffering still exists; pain, tears and torment still exist.
How else does anyone reconcile hell with the idea of God being a loving creator?
Just curious.
If this isn't the case, then hasn't God failed to rid all sin? Clearly, if sinful beings still exist being tormented for eternity then sinful desire still exists; suffering still exists; pain, tears and torment still exist.
How else does anyone reconcile hell with the idea of God being a loving creator?
Just curious.
Originally the idea different level of punishment is from Brother Kenneth, so I don't know if there is such thing.
But probably this verse help to consider
Matt 11:[SUP]24[/SUP]But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
seem to me this verse indicate that In the day of judgement there is more tolerable sin or less tolerable punishment.
But probably this verse help to consider
Matt 11:[SUP]24[/SUP]But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
seem to me this verse indicate that In the day of judgement there is more tolerable sin or less tolerable punishment.
For one, I used to defend Eternal Torment. I tried to rationalize it. But it was a hollow pursuit. Second, Eternal Torment is not consistent with God's love and you will never be able to make a real world example (parable) out of such a thing. In other words, Jesus was able to illustrate spiritual truth with real world examples using parables. Three, people are confused on this point because they think the KJV was written in Modern English and that it did not influence other later translations. Fourth, for every passage that you think suggests Eternal Torment there is a passage that says otherwise. Fifth, if you are going to say I am wrong on this one, you actually have to prove your case with the Bible and or discuss the passages that I have brought up. You are going to have to explain it to me how God can be loving and yet make others to be tortured for all time for a finite amount of crimes done. Tell me. Did not Jesus say to do good unto those who do evil against you? Does not God send rain on the righteous and the unrighteous?
Please keep in mind that I used to defend Eternal Torment. I researched all the reasons I could find that would defend such a doctrine. So I am curious as to what you and others might have to say in the defense of Eternal Torment that would go beyond my defense of it (at one time).
Please keep in mind that I used to defend Eternal Torment. I researched all the reasons I could find that would defend such a doctrine. So I am curious as to what you and others might have to say in the defense of Eternal Torment that would go beyond my defense of it (at one time).
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While I was on the fence on ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) and the Conditional View of Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire), I had listed reasons why Eternal Torment could potentially be true within this thread.
ECT How can God be loving and send then someone to Hell? - Theology Online | Christian Forums & More
In other words, I was not trying to be biased to a particular way of thinking just because a certain group of people believed it. What do the Scriptures really say on this matter is what you should seek.
Anyways, within this thread discussion, I realized with Scripture and with basic common sense morality and justice that such a view is unbiblical and immoral.
ECT How can God be loving and send then someone to Hell? - Theology Online | Christian Forums & More
In other words, I was not trying to be biased to a particular way of thinking just because a certain group of people believed it. What do the Scriptures really say on this matter is what you should seek.
Anyways, within this thread discussion, I realized with Scripture and with basic common sense morality and justice that such a view is unbiblical and immoral.
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