What is your view of Hell and the Lake of Fire? Is it Loving?

[Jason0047]

What View of Hell and the Lake of Fire do you believe in?

(1) Traditional View (Eternal Torment)?
(2) Annihilationism (Evil people will seize to exist at death)?
(3) Metaphorical View (Hell is only metaphorical)?
(4) Eternal Torment View + Some Kind of Purgatory?
(5) Soul Sleep with Immediate Destruction in Lake of Fire?
(6) Soul Sleep with Eternal Torment in the Lake of Fire?
(7) Real Hell (Torment not Torture) Conditionalism?
(8) Real Hell (Torture not Torment) Conditionalism?
(9) There is no such thing as Hell?
(10) Other (Please explain)?

Can you honestly say your view of Hell and the Lake of Fire is loving?

If so, please explain.


Side Note:

"Soul Sleep"
Soul Sleep is the concept that the soul sleeps until the time of Judgment and the Lake of Fire.

"Conditionalism" is the belief that the Lake of Fire is a place where man will be punished in the Lake of Fire only for a certain set amount of time in proportion to his sins. Then his soul, spirit, and new resurrected body will be destroyed or consumed in the Lake of Fire by the power of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"The Real Hell (Torment not Torture) Conditionalism View" is the belief that the Rich-Man was not actually being tortured inside any flames; Instead, he was being tormented (not tortured) by the heat of the flame in front of him within the gulf that separated him and Abraham. This view of course is followed by the belief that the Lake of Fire is Conditional whereby Jesus will eventually destroy the body and soul within the Lake of Fire.

"The Real Hell (Torture not Torment) Conditionalism View" is the belief that the Rich-Man was actually tormented in flame. This view of course is followed by the belief that the Lake of Fire is Conditional whereby Jesus will eventually destroy the body and soul within the Lake of Fire.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God sent his son, so that whoever believes in him, will never perish but has eternal life.

No greater love has any man than he die for the one he loves (he died for EVERYONE!

No one has to go to hell. They send themselves there.

 

[Jason0047]

The question is not whether or not God is loving in sending His own Son so that nobody has to go there. It's actually a two part question with a different focus in mind.

(a) What is your view of Hell and the Lake of Fire? ~ (Please vote in the poll) ~
(b) Can you explain how your view of punishment is loving (and or fair and just)?

 

[JDecree]

(1) Traditional View (Eternal Torment)

God has to punish sin BECAUSE he loves. He loves to such an extent that the punishment for rejecting Him is eternal.

Yes it is a hard truth. Unimaginable. But let's not put God on trial. I've heard some groups flagrantly call Him a tyrant and unjust if the Lake of Fire(Hell) is eternal. Would it make us feel better if we could see the scriptures in a different way and make eternal mean something finite? Yeah. But what is the truth?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The question is not whether or not God is loving in sending His own Son so that nobody has to go there. It's actually a two part question with a different focus in mind.

(a) What is your view of Hell and the Lake of Fire? ~ (Please vote in the poll) ~
(b) Can you explain how your view of punishment is loving (and or fair and just)?

my response answered question B.

question a does not matter really, eternal seperation from God is hell.. fire or not.

 

[Jason0047]

my response answered question B.

question a does not matter really, eternal seperation from God is hell.. fire or not.

No, that is not an answer for those who are wicked. We are not talking about whether or not they were given an out or not. We are talking about whether or not the punishment is loving, fair, and just.

In other words, is it loving, fair, and just to throw somebody in a wood chipper for lying and or for speeding? Does it really matter if the country made sacrifices for it to be a crime free and loving environment? Should not the punishment itself be taken under consideration?

Also, please vote in the Poll.

 

[Jason0047]

(1) Traditional View (Eternal Torment)

God has to punish sin BECAUSE he loves. He loves to such an extent that the punishment for rejecting Him is eternal.

Yes it is a hard truth. Unimaginable. But let's not put God on trial. I've heard some groups flagrantly call Him a tyrant and unjust if the Lake of Fire(Hell) is eternal. Would it make us feel better if we could see the scriptures in a different way and make eternal mean something finite? Yeah. But what is the truth?

All Truth is good. So no truth in the Bible should be hard to accept as it being good. The majority of professing believers just believe ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) blindly and cannot explain the love and goodness of God involving it. They use misdirection and try to change the subject to the fact that Jesus Christ gives them an escape. But that stil does not answer the problem of the form of punishment being fair or just or not.

 

[Jason0047]

I believe why most hold to ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is because they do not understand that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

Take Revelation 14:11 KJV as an example.
Should the English words "for ever" (or "forever") be read literally meaning an endless state?

Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you. What I am I talking about? Well, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 KJV which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

In other words, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can have a temporal sense. For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Gen.13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Ex.12:24; 27:21; 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezek.16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer.30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic.1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph.2:9, Jer.25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer.49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deut.23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Hab.3 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex.40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Heb.7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Lev.24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Cor. 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez.29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer.49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jer.48:4, 42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer.48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa.32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in II Cor.4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”


Source Used:
http://www.apttoteach.org/Theology/E...f/911_Hell.pdf

 

[Jason0047]

Re: The doctrine I don't want to believe-eternal fire

Doesn't Revelation tell us that people who take the mark of the beast will have no rest day or night?

Yes, they will indeed have "no rest," but when will this happen? It will be during the tribulation period while on this earth. It is important to note that in the previous verse, John wrote in the Greek future tense and refers to the Great White Throne Judgment where the lost will be tormented "in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb" on Judgment Day. This is a future event for John. The Greek tense is in the future.In this verse, John changes tenses. It is in the Greek present tense. This cannot be stressed enough. In his literal translation of the scriptures, Robert Young, compiler of the Analytical Concordance that bears his name, translates it into a perfect English translation-as John wrote it:

"And they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image." (Young's Literal Translation–Revelation 14:11)


​

The apostle John writes this word "proskuneo" (worship/bowing) in the Greek present tense. The present tense is the tense he chooses to use to describe the rest of the events of Revelation that occur on the earth. So this must be while on earth since it is in the same Greek tense. Look at verse 9 in which the unsaved "worship" (also in the Greek present tense) the beast "and receive his mark." This is very important because it clearly occurs while on this earth. So, if the receiving of this mark (whatever it may be) is on this earth, then the worshipping in 14:11 must also be on this earth. Hence, the "no rest day or night" must occur on this earth as well.

The "no resting day or night" occurs while they are "bowing" and "worshipping" (present tense) the beast. This occurs during the time on earth when the book of Revelation events are being unfolded. These are people who are forced to receive the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:16). John also tells us that painful sores break out on their body, "And there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image." (Revelation 16:2) This is while they are on the earth.

Additionally–the very next verse states "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12). Why is this important? Because "keeping" is in the very same tense! John's statement of those "who keep (present tense) the commandments" must be at the same time as those who have "no rest" and are "worshipping (present tense) the beast." Therefore–this is conclusive proof that these both occur on the earth. Need more proof? Well, the same Greek word and tense of "worship" (of God this time) is also used in Revelation 11:1 where it is absolutely clear that the "worship" is going on in the present tense upon this earth. Let me repeat–Revelation 11:1, 14:11, 16:2, all have the same Greek tense! You have to make them all be acts of "worship" while upon this earth.

Therefore, how can anyone "rest day or night" when they have painful such sores on their body and are forced to worship the beast? (Revelation 14:11 & 16:2). And John specifically tells us when this worshipping shall occur-it is when they "dwell upon the earth." "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him..." (Revelation 13:8) So the worshipping and the no resting both occur while upon this earth.

Source:
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical
(Note: I do not hold to all views or beliefs by this author; Especially the author's false view of "soul sleep" and the author's false view that the Richman and Lazarus is just a parable).​

 

[tourist]

I believe why most hold to ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is because they do not understand that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

Take Revelation 14:11 KJV as an example.
Should the English words "for ever" (or "forever") be read literally meaning an endless state?

Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you. What I am I talking about? Well, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 KJV which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

In other words, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can have a temporal sense. For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Gen.13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Ex.12:24; 27:21; 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezek.16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer.30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic.1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph.2:9, Jer.25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer.49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deut.23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Hab.3 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex.40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Heb.7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Lev.24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Cor. 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez.29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer.49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jer.48:4, 42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer.48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa.32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in II Cor.4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”


Source Used:
http://www.apttoteach.org/Theology/E...f/911_Hell.pdf

This is an outstanding post.

 

[JDecree]

I just gave you a reason though.

"God has to punish sin BECAUSE he loves. He loves to such an extent that the punishment for rejecting Him is eternal."

Fair? Name one thing in life that is fair lol.

Be careful with your response on this: What if it was proven to you that the tradition ECT view was the truth? How would you react? (and no, I cant prove it to you. Such is the nature of disagreements of this level of importance...nobody ever changes their minds)

 

[Jason0047]

This is an outstanding post.

Thank you.

 

[JDecree]

When do we determine when the word forever or eternal doesn't actually mean eternal? I've heard the adventist argument before and this portion was repeated verbatim in the many many SDA sermons I have watched:

"Well, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 KJV which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically."

There is a disconnect with this line of thinking. Every time the bible mentions eternal life or living forever there is no dispute with anyone that it means it literally. But when those words are used for the Lake of Fire/Hell, well no! Surely it is metaphorical.

Clearly, there are times when it is used metaphorically. How do we know? In the case above we have clear and obvious evidence that Edom isn't still burning. Do we have any evidence like that for Hell?

 

[Jason0047]

"The Real Hell (Torment not Torture) Conditionalism View"
(A Quick Overview):

What is the Conditional View of Hell? Well, the Lake of Fire is eternal; But the amount of time they spend in the Lake of Fire depends on the degree of sin that they have committed here in this life. In other words, once they serve their time in the Lake of Fire (according to the type of sins they committed) the soul and spirit body will be destroyed within the Lake of Fire. For Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28). Hell here is translated as "geenna" γέεννα. Which is a reference to the Lake of Fire.

So the punishment has eternal consequences where the soul and spirit body are eventually destroyed or put to ruin. For it is everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) --- Not everlasting punishing.

Yeah, but what about those who are being tortured in flames in Hades or Hell today? Well, in Luke 16:19-31: Most people fail to understand is that when the Rich-man went to Torments (i.e. Hell, Hades), he was not actually being burned by any flames. In Luke 16:24, the Rich-man was referring to the fact about how he was tormented in the flame that was in front of him that was in the gulf that was between him and Abraham (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me). (Similar language like this can be found with the words "in these" in Isaiah 57:6 KJV). It was the heat of the flame that made him uncomfortable or tormented. For although I am open to understanding otherwise according to Scripture, I currently do not believe he was in extreme physical pain or torture. For if the Rich-man was engulfed by entire flames --- he wouldn't be asking for a little water to cool his tongue, he would be asking for a giant barrel of water or lots of buckets of water to lower the flame or to put it out.

In fact, the key is to always look at cross references so as to best understand Scripture. The cross reference for Luke 16:19-31 is Genesis 18:22-33 and Genesis 19:27-28.

Anyways, if you were to read these chapters, you would discover in Genesis 19 that Abraham looked at the billowing smoke from Sodom. When looking at all of Scripture, one can easily conclude that Abraham simply wanted to know what happened to this city because he was worried that Lot might have perished there. For Abraham might have learned later about how Lot made it to safety, but we get no indication within the text that Abraham knew that Lot was okay or safe. So I imagine it tormented Abraham a little in seeing that smoke. For he pleaded with God to spare the city (no doubt for Lot's sake). In fact, I imagine he pictured a fire in his mind where the smoke was coming from the city. But now in the New Testament, Abraham had knowledge as to why he and a righteous man named Lazarus was in Paradise (a Heaven like compartment in the realm of the dead) and he had knowledge as to why the Rich-man was in Hades or Torments. Abraham now looked at an actual real flame and had the understanding. Whereas the Rich-man looked at the flame on the other side and was tormented by it's heat and by the fact that it reminded him of the upcoming Lake of Fire. Both men (Abraham and the Rich-man were tormented by a fire at a particular point in time) but each of them had two entirely different experiences concerning that fire which was in front of them.

In addition, another parallel I recently noticed between Lazarus and the Rich Man account (Luke 16:19-31) and Genesis 18 is that both Abraham's story in Genesis 18-19 and the Rich Man's story begin with their eyes being lifted up.

Abraham:

"And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, ..." (Genesis 18:1-2)


​

Rich Man:

"...the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, ..." (Luke 16:22-23)


​

In other words, this above example is trying to tell us that the two stories are tied together in order to give us an important message. What is that message? Well, I believe both stories are trying to tell us that God is fair and just in His Judgments. For "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25) (cf. Luke 16:25).

 

[Utah]

[SUP] [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus did not make any reference to time with the above statement but He did make reference to severity. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is no joke. I voted soul sleep with immediate destruction in the lake of fire.

I hope for the sake of those who do not have salvation that their punishment is just, it is quick and it ends with annihilation. It has to be better not to exist than to exist in eternal weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

The question is not whether or not God is loving in sending His own Son so that nobody has to go there. It's actually a two part question with a different focus in mind.

(a) What is your view of Hell and the Lake of Fire? ~ (Please vote in the poll) ~
(b) Can you explain how your view of punishment is loving (and or fair and just)?

I voted ETC Traditional.

It ought to be understood that any judge ought to be free to judge apart from emotions.

Judge: "I agree with this town's deep love for that woman, but she has been proved guilty of
murdering her last 3 husbands and now her kids. But....I will set her free because I just like her."

Justice must be a separate cause. I am thankful it is God that judges in the end, not men.

God expressed His love by the one act of giving His dear Son for our sakes. What more do we
require of God? Pardon the Devil who trampled the blood of Jesus?

 

[JesusLives]

My view is that Hell and Lake of Fire is the end of sin and death, the end of satan and the torment he has cause us the end of wicked people and finally the end of death as it is swallowed up in Victory.

It is called God's strange act, but it is out of love that the wicked are destroyed as they would be miserable in heaven and would not want to be there. In Malachi 4:3 it is stated that the wicked will be ashes under the righteous feet. So while I believe there will be fire of hell and a lake of fire once the fuel for the fire has burned up the fire will go out but the consequences will be eternal forever and ever.

I look forward to a New Heaven and a New Earth where the former things are passed away and there will be no temptation to do evil. Everyone will know and love God and sin will never rise again.... Oh what a glorious day that will be. Thank You Jesus for Your sacrifice of love You made for us.

 

[Jason0047]

As for the devil and the false prophet being tormented forever in Revelation 20:10 : First, the English word "ever" (in forever) is the Greek word "aion", which means age. This is the same Greek word used for the English word "world" in Matthew 24:3 talking about the end of the world (i.e. age). Scripture says the beast in the false prophet will be in the Lake of Fire for 1,000 years. However, the beast and the false prophet are demons and not humans. They had inflicted pain and suffering on humanity for more than 1,000 years. Second, when it says forever in Revelation 20:10 it is a colorful expression of strong emotion for the totality of the devil's allotted time of punishment. It is a strong expression of emotion of totality. Sort of like how a man might say to his wife in love, "I am your husband forever." However, he knows he won't be her husband forever because he knows death will separate them as husband and wife in the future. But what evidence is there that Satan will perish in the Lake of Fire with everyone else?

Well, you may or may not know this, but Isaiah 14:12-20 and Ezekiel 28:11-19 are well known verses amongst Christians that talk about the devil. They are passages that describe both the devil and the evil rulers who were living during that time. Anyways, Ezekiel 28:18 says that the fire will devour the devil and he will be brought to ashes. Isaiah 14:19 says the devil's carcase will be trodden under foot. Meaning he will be nothing but a charred up corpse or a destroyed spiritual body.

Also, Scripture says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. This makes the assumption that there are other enemies before death that have been destroyed (Whether death is physical entity and or a power).

In any event, I hope that what I said here has comforted you. But please do not take my word for it. Search the Scriptures for yourself and pray over them and double check it for yourself. Let the Lord guide you into all truth by asking Him (Jeremiah 33:3).

 

[Chopper]

I chose Annihilationism (Evil people will seize to exist at death) based on the statements about the second death, from which there is no resurrection, and the ashes beneath the feet.

 

[Jason0047]

Also, the 2nd Death (i.e. the Lake of Fire) cannot be understood as talking about eternal torment because it is tied to the 1st Death. The numbering here suggests that they are related to one another. For Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 that we should fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell. The question then remains, why don't people believe Jesus?